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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I feel like there are enough scattered puzzle pieces that maybe aren't enough on their own, but putting them together paints a picture of our salvation.

  • Hazo dies to remove the bioseal
    • Somebody like Snowflake, Kei, or even Mari kills Hazo (or simply makes him spend enough time in the rift) to force the issue, if Hazo didn't happen to vote it into his action plan
    • QMs being on record saying that a non-biosealed Hazo would be more paranoid and wouldn't follow Oro into the woods to die
    • Noburi's chakra-draining and/or medical ability might be involved, confirming no active chakra in Hazo's system or whatever.
  • Tsunade has a strong interest in keeping Hazo alive
    • Hazo with a bioseal is a lost cause, but see above
    • Tsunade wants to trust Orochimaru, but I think reasonable arguments can be made the convince her to spare a bit of time to keep Hazo alive for the sake of defending leaf
    • even if Tsunade wasn't convinced that Hazo is critical for defending leaf, she'd want to keep him alive because...
  • Hazo has prepared a very compelling deadmans switch
    • Orochimaru might have decided he could handle it, but it would be another disincentive which added with others might swing the pendulum
    • By its nature, the deadmans switch means others (like Tsunade) would be compelled to keep Hazo alive as well, even if it's an inconvenience
    • For all anybody knows, Kagome, who went missing shortly before the rift battle, is a key part of this and nobody has any way of tracking him down except maybe through spider, if the paranoid survivalist manages not to be paranoid enough.

Just putting these three together should be enough for Hazo to talk his way out of imminent death. Of course there are a few other interesting suggestions being thrown around but this seems to me like the most straightforward and least revisionist way of handling the most recent situation.

Inferno Vulpix said:
*Orochimaru snaps his fingers*

*Hazou doesn't explode*

Orochimaru: "Huh, that should've worked"
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Instead of Orochimaru immediately punching Hazo here, Hazo gets a chance to speak and mentions the deadmans switch. Orochimaru is about to capture Hazo to try and torture details out of him before killing him, but Tsunade unexpectedly (for Oro) shows up and puts a stop to it before too much damage is done.

Tsunade: "Huh, the boy's predictions were spot on. Damn it Orochimaru, I expected better from you this time!"

Orochimaru looking irritated and considering his chances in straight-up combat: "It was the most logical thing to do. He was practically begging for it!"

Hazo: "Victim blaming, really? Well anyways, now that we've agreed I'm not dying right this moment, lets discuss what we're doing with the rift now, hmm?"



I don't think such a chapter would feel like an ass-pull or deus ex machina. I think somewhere in there we could reveal Hazo being a shadow clone, and all of it adding up to Hazo not being as easy to kill as Orochimaru thought. "I'm weak but not stupid, Uncle, and I'm not going to let you, Akatsuki, or anybody get in my way. You're stronger than me for now, but that just means I have to be cleverer, even if I've made some mistakes along the way."
 
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I might be able to convinced that the QMs missed something and actually simulationally Hazou should have survived.
The issue even in such a case is that we have gained OOC info that Oro plans to kill Hazou. As soon as it becomes convenient.
So I don't know what to do about that. I guess the QMs could tell us to ignore that OOC info? But that just feels so clumsy and inelegant.
 
Popping my head back in because I got alerted to what had happened.

Well, the quest has been going for over nine years now. Maybe it's time to just pack it in, say it was an interesting experiment, and leave it here as a quest end. Let poor Hazou rest. I'll leave the thread on 'watched' having hit this reply, and come back when there is a vote.
 
I will probably do a bigger post tomorrow (in my usual "I graduate from lurker to poster about once a year" move), but I do want to say this is satisfying, and I find myself feeling very similar to IV about the whole situation.

CitizenTen said:
I dunno. Seems pretty uninspired. You're claiming a S-rank ninja can't do an assassination mission on a chunin because he has a shadow clone? That's pretty silly.
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*To be fair* that's basically the entire premise of us going missing nin to avoid a group of S-rankers who want us dead...
 
AFAIK the only way out of this would be for Keiko to conduct high end perfect Frozen Skein intervention to bail our ass out.
 
roobee said:
I might be able to convinced that the QMs missed something and actually simulationally Hazou should have survived.
The issue even in such a case is that we have gained OOC info that Oro plans to kill Hazou. As soon as it becomes convenient.
So I don't know what to do about that. I guess the QMs could tell us to ignore that OOC info? But that just feels so clumsy and inelegant.
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Everything in my post just above yours, those ideas were all had before the most recent update. People have considering using the rift to clear the bioseal, people have considered getting Tsunade to support us to prevent our impending death, and we have set the deadmans switch up long ago. (okay only a handful of updates but still)

Somebody in our inner circle, our immediate family of planners who all love us, forcing the issue even if we failed to enact it in an action plan might be a good way to stop the 'Kei is useless' feeling that is strongly prevalent in the thread.

Kei is useless? Kei just saved your life, bitch. Despite your own suicidal choices, how's that for useless.

I don't think we need to act with any ooc information here, except that Orochimaru is planning on doing it right this moment instead of later. But like... it shouldn't take a frozen Skein to predict that this is the optional time for him to act, if he's planning on running off with the rift.


So yes, I think it is fully in-character for our family to not be useless for once, and for the QMs to put together these various ideas that aren't enough individually to create a reasonable defense against Orochimaru's treachery.

Shard said:
AFAIK the only way out of this would be for Keiko to conduct high end perfect Frozen Skein intervention to bail our ass out.
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I don't think we even need the bloodline for this, but sure that's an option too.
 
Paperclipped said:
In an alternate, no-bioseal universe, we wouldn't have fiat declared "Hazou Prime is going into the woods with Orochimaru" because Hazou would not be dead-but-for-the-timer)
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roobee said:
Since the QMs have previously requested feedback I will state I find it unsimulationist to do something for the reason of being dramatic.
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To give more detail to my above constructive alternative. The drama can be maintained by having a shadow clone sent, optionally not mentioning in the update at first it is a shadow clone. And replacing
eaglejarl said:
Orochimaru snapped his fingers and Hazō's entire chakra system, native and transplanted, exploded. He plummeted off the branch, clutching his chest in agony.
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With something like
"Orochimaru snapped his fingers. Miles away Hazō Prime's entire chakra system, native and transplanted, exploded. Hazou's Shadow Clone on the branch popped."
And maybe deleting
eaglejarl said:
Hazō started to move, but he was too slow.
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eaglejarl said:
"Yes sir." He shifted slightly on the branch, moving closer to the edge so that he could drop quickly if needed.
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as there is no point in a shadow clone running.
 
Cariyaga said:
...Though honestly I kind of just prefer the route where Oro yanks us out of the rift and makes us his apprentice until Hazou's strong enough to survive doing this shit.
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Well, this sounds familiar.....

Velorien said:
"You see," he went on, noticing Hazō's eyes narrow in suspicion, "this is exactly why it's good to know each other's power levels in advance. You don't have to decide whether you should be trying to kill me, because you know you can't, and you don't have to fear that I'm trying to kill you, because you know I've chosen not to. So now we can skip all that and move on to civilised discussion.
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Hm. Yeah, that's a path. Maybe.
 
eaglejarl said:
"You exhaust me, boy. Power does not rain down from the heavens. Power is something that you take, that you grasp with both hands and tear from the foundations of the world. Power is something that you earn with pain and sweat and murder.
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i want to point out that the super chiller/3dseal proliferation fullfils this creteria, we are taking the world hostage and ensuring either a win/win or a lose/lose. the only thing standing in the way of this being our victory is that Oro is apparently too prideful to accept this outcome, since when? he played ball whit naruto and Asuma despite their weakened possitions, he was content to do his thing and leave us to out project alone, him accepting hazou's demands whit not his personal safety(because he has essoteric means of ensuring his safety) but whit the prospect of all his life work becoming undone due to his hubris is equally as simulationist in my opinion.
 
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Paperclipped said:
First, we want to say that we think that taking the bioseal was a reasonable option that the players had available at the time, given the information they had. It's a risk-reward tradeoff, and this was optimal along some axes (e.g. minimizing odds of being discovered by Hidan while setting up at the rift).

That said, we disagree that Orochimaru would have been able to kill Hazou trivially without the bioseal. Prior to taking the bioseal, Hazou was reasonably paranoid around Orochimaru -- meeting only with shadow clones, keeping the Prime body away and well equipped. It would have imposed costs to keep this up for the remainder of the arc, but we don't currently think it would have been impossible. That is -- we don't think the Alertness/Athletics in the 30s meant Hazou was always going to die, since his narrative precautions can trump Orochimaru's stats.

(Aside: yes, Orochimaru could have killed Hazou without the bioseal given the specific events of the chapter, where Hazou Prime and Orochimaru were alone in the woods. With the bioseal, Hazou already couldn't survive, so we elected to at least write a more dramatic and compelling chapter. See:

In an alternate, no-bioseal universe, we wouldn't have fiat declared "Hazou Prime is going into the woods with Orochimaru" because Hazou would not be dead-but-for-the-timer)

Could Orochimaru have maybe found non-biosealed!Hazou's location and killed him? Possibly, yes. But it would be uncertain, and if Orochimaru failed, Hazou would be infinitely more paranoid and Orochimaru might never have gotten a good opportunity again. Instead, Orochimaru would continue waiting for a good opportunity. He might have killed Hazou at a later date, since without planting a bioseal and playing his hand, Orochimaru could continue to butter up Hazou, and Hazou might eventually let down his guard and interact with Orochimaru in a way that isn't mediated by miles of distance and shadow clones. However, that outcome wouldn't be certain, and would be left up to a series of player decisions, meaning there would be opportunities to decide to stay away forever, or somehow convince Orochimaru that Hazou was safe, or to arrange Orochimaru's death, or...
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I am confused. Didn't Orochimaru just tell us that the Sannin managed to assassinate every assassination target they had without fail? How would Hazou survive a snipe and skedaddle as he's setting up runes or doing whatever other thing that can't be done purely via Shadow Clones?
 
A thought to continue it, building off some discussion in discord:

Hidan has his whole thing, supposedly from Jashin.

How about Hazou died, but it turns out he can just plop down a rift opener wherever in the afterlife and ends up right back in the EN, as our favor.

It means that Hazou can actually die and it stick if you realize this ahead of time and make sure to strip away his seals, but without that he's going to be popping right back into the world in hours. And will be appropriately pissed.
 
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redzonejoe said:
QMs to put together these various ideas that aren't enough individually to create a reasonable defense against Orochimaru's treachery.
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I don't find that mixture especially persuasive. Also the phrasing sounds like trying to put together ideas for the purpose of keeping Hazou alive. I don't know if you are doing motivated reasoning, but I would like to remind everyone to be careful about it sneaking up on them. We should be coming up with various ideas of what seems off about the world, and then open mindedly looking at the natural conclusion of those ideas. Instead of seeking ideas that save Hazou, and trying to combine them in ways that save Hazou.
 
I'm gonna be Blunt. This is now my new favorite chapter

Also I feel like adding that The next chapter would be the perfect moment to awaken The Mangekyou Iron nerves
 
Doylist: I don't want the quest to end. There's still some big steps to achieve, big emotional moments to hit. We're starting to be able to hit in the big leagues. I enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the world building, the character building, the character builds, the new mechanics. And more, I would greatly miss having a bi-weekly bit of joy and engagement, that I engage with regularly enough that my partner knows based on my expression and day of the week when a new chapter has dropped. I can get onboard with minimal retconning, and certainly the last chapter did have a lot of feels. But it also felt... Empty? No blaze of glory, no fighting against a stronger opponent. Just wistful, for both Orochimaru and us.

(And there's still so much I'm sure the QMs would enjoy. Have the players thought about what coming back means? The likelihood that Ino moved on, or hates us now in a way that doesn't instantly go away just because Naruto pardons us? Or the probability that we won't be clan head again as part of this, and we'll just have fewer resources? Or that Goketsu may have collapsed without us?
And we're finally, FINALLY getting around to increasing our punching stats.
So much good stuff to still write, if you're reading this QMs.)


Watsonian: The Deadman switch has been addressed by others. The Chakra dispersal problem, using the switch if we're not nearby. Our knowing that Orochimaru is more likely to kill us off now making it less likely to be anywhere with him nearby and Tsunade not. But I do want to dive a bit into Tsunade.

She wants Hazou and Noburi back to Leaf immediately. Given that her plan of protection involves Noburi, and she's now also betting on Hazou's barriers, leaving without them seems foolhardy, if there's a contingent headed back shortly anyway. But even more than that... Orochimaru doesn't value leaf, sure. He does value Tsunade on some level though, even if he clearly was quite hurt by her not coming to his aid when he was kicked out the first time. He must know that, without Hazou, the odds that Leaf dies (with Tsunade along with it) go up significantly. And even if he doesn't care enough for Tsunade for that to move the needle any... Having a vengeful and betrayed ex teammate who feels like you've killed off what might be Leaf's best hope for survival, right after you were vouched for to said murdered kid? I wouldn't put it past Tsunade to decide it's her responsibility to put Orochimaru down once and for all. Though it's entirely possible she wouldn't, or Orochimaru doesn't model her as being willing to go that Pretty Damn Far too avenge Leaf.

An altercation that loses the rift for Leaf, has Orochimaru run off, and no immediate hope for rescue against the remaining Akatsuki, would still be quite challenging.

Otherwise... I'm not sure. But if we do survive this, it should be a short lease on life to address some of these time bombs. "Deal with the bioseal, shortly, or it'll kill you" sort of thing.
 
faflec said:
Clarification since I'm making assumptions here based on what Orochimaru said: Orochimaru is lying about still needing to do the kicks, right? As in, he's already moved the rift far enough away from the general area and was just hanging around to kill Hazou before absconding with it properly?

Because otherwise it would make no sense for him to kill Hazou now, when Tsunade is going to double back once Hazou doesn't show up, find his corpse/him missing, and start blowing everything up trying to find Orochimaru.
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If it doesn't make logistic sense for Oro to have had time to kick the rift far away. Then this is the most compelling idea I've heard so far for Hazou living.
edit: to live in full working condition and freedom. I could see other reasons for Oro to have swallowed Hazou for future interrogation
 
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Let's reroll as a blank slate in the Pure Land. Amnesiac nearly erased human wakes up attached to the quest hive mind and must power up (read:progression fantasy) their way as they travel across the land to rescue Some Old Pervert.
 
I like the idea of changing Orochimaru's character that he's still loyal to leaf. And that he did install a 'kill-switch', but it's actually a one time pain switch. Then Orochimaru takes him as his apprentice.

Also, still need to read the chapter.
 
Halberdier said:
Watsonian: The Deadman switch has been addressed by others. The Chakra dispersal problem, using the switch if we're not nearby. Our knowing that Orochimaru is more likely to kill us off now making it less likely to be anywhere with him nearby and Tsunade not. But I do want to dive a bit into Tsunade.
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Huh?
The Dead Man's Switch is not a rune, seal, or something that Hazou has to activate. It's the knowledge of what even a moderately skilled application of EM jutsu can do, which means you can speak the entire world into nuclear proliferation.
So, barring narrativium, Orochimaru's fucked if he kills Hazou. At least that's how MAD is supposed to work, but perhaps the paranoid obsessive immortality-survivalist has changed his outlook on survival.
 
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