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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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RandomOTP said:
You know my theory on why Shikamaru remained polite-but-distant every since we asked if he'd been the one to murder *(or arrange the murder of) Asuma? How Shikamaru realized that there are truly no lines Hazou won't cross if it means protecting his loved ones, or carrying out his goals? That there is a world where we kill (or arrange the murder of) our own father/uncle figure, even if Shikamaru cannot conceive of a world wherein he does the same? That Shikamaru has lines he won't cross, but when the gauntlet is thrown and the fate of the world is at stake, Hazou doesn't?

As a core leader of the Five Thinker Clans, there's no better ally to have on your side: cunning, dangerously smart, and insanely determined... all wielded towards your shared goals.

But as a brother and husband? That's not someone you can trust with your back, or the lives of your loved ones, because there does exist a reality where Hazou allows them to die, or kills them outright, because it furthers an endgoal.

I suspect that Team Uplift is about to have a similar realization.

Nuclear weapons and WMD proliferation? Kidnapping fellow human beings and subjecting them to Orochimaru's tender mercies? In Hazou's mind, all of these are rendered acceptable tactics when we're facing the Battle for the Rift, and doing so bends the odds in our favor. When doing so removes the Akatsuki --who are friends and allies to Hidan --from being the Eternal Tyrants of Humanity.

Team Uplift is so used to seeing Hazou's cunning determination pointed in the direction of Uplift, or at a faceless enemy, in a foreign dimension that they'll never see. But now, they'll see just how far Hazou is willing to go when he says "Pretty Damn Far."

I do not think this will be a pleasant realization. But is, perhaps, a necessary one.


As an aside, maybe this action will, narratively, finally provide justification for changing Hazou's Trouble Aspect from "Foot-in-Mouth" to "Pretty Damn Far."
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It's a simple matter, in the end:
Paperclipped said:
"Chōji," Shikamaru said. "You are aware that once you're a clan head, you'll have to make many hard decisions, correct?"

Chōji nodded slowly. "Yeah?"

"Once that day comes, and you're faced with a choice where you're forced to make sacrifices for the good of the clan, what would be better? For the decision to be so hard, so agonizing that you struggle for days to make it and remain in guilt for weeks or years afterwards? Or for the decision to be easy? For if, despite the sacrifices and the tradeoffs, simple calculus dictates the correct choice and once that calculus is made, no more input is required on your part no matter how harmful the consequences."

Chōji considered that for a moment. The exposed flesh of the log in the fireplace was starting to shrivel and blacken as it slowly caught fire atop the embers. "I think it would be better for it to be too easy. It may be callous, but sacrifices are always necessary. Not everyone can live. If the right choice is that evident, then you should just make it. But I'd be careful, too. I think if I made too many sacrifices because I was doing some math that made hard decisions seem easy, I would worry about whether I was making the right calls at all. If my choices seemed wrong despite the math telling me it was right, I'd doubt the math first."

Shikamaru sighed. "You cannot doubt math, Chōji. Some answers, at least, are objective."

"That's where you and I differ," Chōji said, tapping his head. "When you do addition, you always get the right answer. Me, I'm very bad at math."
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Shrimply don't be bad at math.
 
Okay, per the latest version of my calculations, if we have to shape the blanks on site or near enough that there's risk of detection, we likely don't have time to use more than about 4000 chakra on about 11 RER2.0s. (YMMV depending on how long you think we can spend on shaping them before the risk of being spotted becomes not worth it, I'm going with 4 hours which is just about the minimum that makes this possible at all.)
If we get to prepare the blanks in advance, however, there's basically no practical upper limit to our ability to convert more chakra into more explosives.

EDIT: got the clone maximums wrong, fixing now
EDIT 2: actually they were less wrong than I thought, should be close to correct except in scenarios with a very large amount of time available, and I think fixing the issue would be too much work given that
 
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RandomOTP said:
That said, if he was behind Akane's death, then there will be consequences of the "Pretty Damn Far" variety.
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One way to find out would be to return to Leaf, flush with a mountain of goodwill with Naruto, and ask for Mari to be able to interrogate Shikamaru about it. "No, no... you don't need to convince me. You need to convince Mama Bear Mari, grieving mother and widow, over there that you're not responsible for the death of her kindest daughter."

Of all the things we could ask for, the chance to prove innocent a core support pillar of Leaf's leadership isn't that much of an ask. Especially if Naruto genuinely thinks Shikamaru's innocent, and that Hazou's grieving. Easy concession, given all the other things we'll be asking for (reinstatement of the Goketsu Clan, reclamation of Goketsu Estate, tell the Hag Bastards to fuck off and that Harumitsu's ours, etc).

(disclaimer: I am 95% joking about this)
 
Idk if it has been brought up, but if Oro kills Hazo, he will risk a serious relationship malus with Jiraya upon resurrection. And I do expect Oro to at least attempt a rescue from Naraka: the optimal anti-Pain strategy would be to simply close the Rift with a Rune. Instead, he is fighting an entire Riftwar with just the resources of Hazo + Leaf. This only makes sense to me if he is emotionally invested in necromancy.

Conditioning on 'wanting Jiraya alive again' is the only way any of Oro's behavior makes sense. Research subjects are hardly limited even now that he's back in Leaf. His own survival is nearly assured against even active hunting by Pain (in the questionably canon interlude). The Rift is primarily a source of danger unless he has resolved to bring his peer back to life.
 
Zampano said:
Idk if it has been brought up, but if Oro kills Hazo, he will risk a serious relationship malus with Jiraya upon resurrection. And I do expect Oro to at least attempt a rescue from Naraka: the optimal anti-Pain strategy would be to simply close the Rift with a Rune. Instead, he is fighting an entire Riftwar with just the resources of Hazo + Leaf. This only makes sense to me if he is emotionally invested in necromancy.

Conditioning on 'wanting Jiraya alive again' is the only way any of Oro's behavior makes sense. Research subjects are hardly limited even now that he's back in Leaf. His own survival is nearly assured against even active hunting by Pain (in the questionably canon interlude). The Rift is primarily a source of danger unless he has resolved to bring his peer back to life.
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I agree that this is true. I haven't been too clued in on the thread's discussion, but I think the general sentiment is that Orochimaru isn't going to kill us after the Battle of the Rift.
 
Zampano said:
Idk if it has been brought up, but if Oro kills Hazo, he will risk a serious relationship malus with Jiraya upon resurrection. And I do expect Oro to at least attempt a rescue from Naraka: the optimal anti-Pain strategy would be to simply close the Rift with a Rune. Instead, he is fighting an entire Riftwar with just the resources of Hazo + Leaf. This only makes sense to me if he is emotionally invested in necromancy.
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I agree that Oro is emotionally attached to Jiraiya and to lesser extent Hazou, but Orochimaru would never close the Rift. His chief pursuit is immortality and resurrection insurance is far too valuable to give up out of fear, especially given the potential research implications... depending on how the Pure Lands function, he may even be able to abandon his goals of temporal immortality whatsoever!
 
Practically I think we should aim for 3 groups of 3 RERs 2.0s. That pretty much seems like the local max of effort to payoff for that rune chain. So 9 clones there at 36 hours.

1 Force Dome over the fortress and 1 Air Leadening covering the entire area. 2 Clones for that, 2 hours.
7 Iron Earth Runes to cover the perimeter of the Force Dome can pull double duty with 7 Ninja-Radars with the IE Runes, 7 hours.

That puts us at 45 hours, 15 left to spend. So let's put a Ninja-Radar with the Force Dome/Air Leadener, 46. A couple clones with the assault force for comms. 50

We've got some slack here. We pobably want a dedicated Superchiller clone if things are looking bad. But fortunately it looks like we have sufficient clone hours for everything we want to do
 
Rihaku said:
I agree that Oro is emotionally attached to Jiraiya and to lesser extent Hazou, but Orochimaru would never close the Rift. His chief pursuit is immortality and resurrection insurance is far too valuable to give up out of fear, especially given the potential research implications... depending on how the Pure Lands function, he may even be able to abandon his goals of temporal immortality whatsoever!
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I am dubious about the value of the rift for Oro's immortality goal, given that necromancy seems to require outside assistance (in Hazo's report). Would Oro believe that anyone else could be relied on for his survival?

On the other hand, the potential upside of researching Naraka tech (e.g. opening additional rifts for his private use) does correspond to a reduction of the emotional investment needed to fight Akatsuki. So there's probably a combination of factors going into his decision here.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Per Paper's instructions on Discord I am petitioning in thread to increase the number of shots from 3 in the RER 1.0/2.0, to 3 for the 1.0 and 5 for the 2.0

My rationale: The increase in the TN is 20% and the increase in the range is 60% so an increase in shot number by 66% is very similar in vibe, this is offset by the rune being Hard instead of Easy and using 5x the substrate. Requiring Tsunade to personally drag it around. Truely a pain.
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Granted. RER 2.0 now gets 5 shots.
 
Zampano said:
I am dubious about the value of the rift for Oro's immortality goal, given that necromancy seems to require outside assistance (in Hazo's report). Would Oro believe that anyone else could be relied on for his survival?
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The Rift as a method of achieving personal immorality is pretty limited unless you have friends.

However, reliable access Nakara is a necessary prerequisite for all sorts of other possible research which may lead to personal immorality.
 
Buggy said:
Question: How many clone hours do we have if we were instead willing to take a moderate from clone sickness? Is the difference significant?
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Uhh to risk a Moderate on a -6/9/12 we could go up to uhhhh I think 75 clone hours, somebody check my math.

We have 2 Mild slots, so that's 6 more hours there and then 9 from risking the Moderate. It doesn't appear that we need it though.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Uhh to risk a Moderate on a -6/9/12 we could go up to uhhhh I think 75 clone hours, somebody check my math.

We have 2 Mild slots, so that's 6 more hours there and then 9 from risking the Moderate. It doesn't appear that we need it though.
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Hmm, alright. My thinking was that we could risk a moderate if we need clone hours badly enough, but yeah for 25% more it doesn't seem worth it.
 
I view Oro as more of an opportunist, a pragmatist, and cautious: if securing the Rift does not endanger his current contingencies against dying he will do so but there is a limit to how much he will personally want to risk after the threat of Akatsuki reviving Pain has been neutralized.

Oro once thought he could kidnap Kei and Hazou on separate occasions yet backed down when more risks to his course of action became apparent.

Oro has seen the value in letting Hazou run free since it costs him nothing to permit and Hazou brings him novel research in exchange for relatively little on Oro's part (the value to Hazou is obviously higher so the trade is worthwhile for all involved: Oro is pragmatic enough to recognize that pattern).
 
Sir Stompy said:
Do we need time to heal?
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The surgery's impact on Hazou's body will be represented as a Moderate Consequence, which will heal on the normal timeline. Noburi is permitted to treat Hazou with ordinary MedNin.

Sir Stompy said:
What do they say about runecrafting?
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Runecraft is permitted in the surgery's recovery period (though as with anything chakra-intense, will slightly slow recovery by removing the natural-healing bonus).

Sir Stompy said:
do the post surgery instructions prohibit overdraw (Oro doesn't know about overcharge)?
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faflec said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped How does the second chakra coil work in terms of the overdrawing and overcharging mechanics? This can be:
  • Ignore the second chakra coil when calculating overdrawing and overcharging.
  • Add the second chakra coil when calculating overdrawing and overcharging.
  • Add some fraction of the second chakra coil when calculating overdrawing and overcharging.
  • Cause a biosealing failure.
  • Other.
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Orochimaru will comment that he saw scarring on Hazou's chakra coils from repeated overdrawing and adjusted the transplant accordingly to ensure that the associated bioseals would not interfere with future overdraws. This added complexity is part of why Hazou will need to see Orochimaru personally to maintain or remove the bioseal.

Overdrawing is permitted with the biosealed chakra coils, including in surgery recovery (though it may slow or halt recovery). Orochimaru says that "extreme overdrawing" (e.g. a Severe) may cause a lethal biosealing failure. Orochimaru instructs Hazou strictly not to attempt to overdraw the transplanted chakra coil, as it will not recover from damage. Anything adventurous should be done with only Hazou's native chakra coils.
 
Paperclipped said:
The surgery's impact on Hazou's body will be represented as a Moderate Consequence, which will heal on the normal timeline. Noburi is permitted to treat Hazou with ordinary MedNin
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Will Hazou attempt to shape an RER 2.0 with a Moderate Consequence? Even with an Invoke it seems dangerous. I think I would prefer he waited until it was healed and prioritized working on other runes.
 
Paperclipped said:
Hazou will need to see Orochimaru personally to maintain or remove the bioseal.
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Or remove ?!? Aaaaaaaah I'd hoped Tsunade or even Noburi could have simply cut it out.
Incidentally, this kind of "it turned out to be more restrictive than expected due to surgery complications, sorry" twist is exactly what Orochimaru would do if he were deliberately fucking us over. Just saying...
 
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Paperclipped said:
Orochimaru will comment that he saw scarring on Hazou's chakra coils from repeated overdrawing and adjusted the transplant accordingly to ensure that the associated bioseals would not interfere with future overdraws. This added complexity is part of why Hazou will need to see Orochimaru personally to maintain or remove the bioseal.
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Ah yes. If it isn't the consequences of our own actions.
 
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