Okay we've made a lot of posts on the topic now I would love to hear what the QMs are thinking. Or do they want to leave it as a surprise for the next update?

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped Are you guys willing to share some unofficial, non-binding thoughts with us about the many ideas we've had in response to the death update? Which things are more appealing to your sensibilities, which ones fit better with your model of the simulation, which ones are just waaaay off base and should be discarded? Might help refine our ideas a bit further going forward, assuming you guys haven't finalized any decisions on your own yet.
 
OK, so I'm going to put down my non-1AM-immediate-post-chapter thoughts now that I'm less tired and have had time to think and to read other people's ideas.

First, I really don't want this quest to end. I've spent two years catching up and immersing myself in this most-immersive world, and I feel like I just got started immersing myself in this amazing playerbase. I love this group of players and QMs and would hate to see it end now. But I think this is how many people feel (and it looks like the QMs feel this way too) so I'm not worried about that.

Second, I am open to the possibility of backtracking, though I don't think I would want to backtrack past the beginning of the Riftwar arc (i.e. around the time we went missing). If we do end up going back, I'd like there to be some narrative explanation. I have two ideas for this (in order of preference):
  • Jashin (who is known for sending dreams) sent us a long, vivid dream. We wake up with vague memories of whatever timespan, and then our death at Orochimaru's hand.
  • At the last minute, we desperately overdraw our coils, straining the coil bioseals and causing a Ch.586-style sealing failure that sends us back whatever timespan. We wake up in our past body but with our future memories, à la β-timeline. (Credit to @Quiet_Voice for the bioseal-failure idea)

Otherwise, if we decide to continue from the end of Ch.702, these would be my preferred ideas right now (in vague order of preference):
  • Jashin (for his own good reasons) gives us immortality, like he gave to Hidan. Oro triggers the killswitch, our chakra system explodes, but we still survive and get a chance to talk/call for help/run away. (I did in fact have this idea before I read anyone else's post about it :D)
  • Jashin grants us his favor in the afterlife, either by letting us come to our senses faster than usual, by placing us somewhere favorable (e.g. not over an acid ocean) and generally helps us get a head start so we can actually do stuff to to try to get out. I know the QMs said that an afterlife quest would be really hard, so the only way I'd choose for us to go this route is if we do in fact get Jashin's blessing in some way.
  • @Cariyaga's idea that, like there's a Sage mode that lets one bypass negative effects from 7th Path chakra, there's a mode that lets one avoid negative effects of Naraka (or whatever the land beyond the rift is) and we unlock (or Jashin gives) it.
  • There's also the possibility that Kei or Snowflake (or, heck, even Mari or Ami) realizes what's up and come in to rescue us at the last minute. This seems less plausible to me though. It feels less simulationist for reasons that I can't quite seem to articulate right now.

I'm also tempted to ask to take over another of our PCs (I'd advocate for taking Kei) but I don't think that this timeline can continue in a fun way without Hazō being alive and active for multiple reasons:
  1. Leaf is about to get hammered by Akatsuki and possibly all of AMITY. Without Hazō there are no defensive runes and so Leaf will be torched. Maybe this is more simulationist, maybe this is what some people think "should" happen, but to me this just isn't fun. I'd keep reading (because this quest is too awesome) but it wouldn't be enjoyable.
  2. Mari should be activating our dead-man's switch of EM-nuke proliferation, which will (very likely) soon end the world as we'd like to keep it. Maybe if we play as Kei we can convince Mari to not do this (and it might even make for good character development), but given point 1. above I think that the whole thing is fairly moot.
If we did take over a teammate PC, I would want to switch back to Hazō when we resurrect him later.

Or maybe I'm looking at this wrong. @eaglejarl said that Ch.702 was explicitly written to force the Orochimaru issue. So now I'm wondering if trying to keep Ch.702 as canon at all is a good idea. Maybe if we keep it as canon we'll end up with an unsimulationist outcome: IIRC the QMs said that Oro may have been planning to keep Hazō alive until after Akatsuki was beaten if not for QM fiat; so if we continue from the events of this chapter, I worry that we'll be continuing from actions that a non-fiat'd Orochimaru would not have taken.

So maybe the best option is to have the events of this chapter be a Jashin-sent dream to warn us that Orochimaru wants us dead. The more I think about it, the more I think this is the best option.

Regardless, as I said in my last post, I'd like to have this week's updates be interludes along the lines of "The family's reaction to our death" or even "Meanwhile, in Leaf...". I'll vote asmuch when (if) voting opens.

(Well, I hope my ramble is followable; 12AM-brain may not be much more articulate than 1AM brain.)
 
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So maybe the best option is to have the events of this chapter be a Jashin-sent dream to warn us that Orochimaru wants us dead. The more I think about it, the more I think this is the best option.
This... is more plausible than many other Jashin-flavored options, yes. We've had similar dreams before, so it's not a new gimmick like sudden immortality or anything involving the afterlife. And like other Jashin dreams, Hazo himself can't be 100% sure if it's actually real or just a literal dream; like with his vision of Jiraiya or his bargain with Jashin for finding Akane. Even if it is just a dream and not a Jashin-sent vision of the future, which may or may not be possible in the setting, It could still be enough for Hazo to adjust his action plan in an attempt to prevent or counter this outcome. "One more chance, address this issue or die for real."

Honestly the biggest issue I have with this is I'm not sure if Hazo has slept since the rift battle; he might not have had time for a dream :V
 
Ouch, I think you're right. Well, shows who else hasn't gotten much sleep, I guess!

I'll think it over and see if I can get it to fit somehow.
Shouldn't be too much of an issue to make time for it, imo. Everybody with Shadow clones were kept awake for a while before the battle, right? So just say the other leaf nin are standing guard over the rift, waiting for it to close so it can be moved, and the likes of Hazo and Kei who have been up for a while get a quick nap to recharge before the rushed march home.

Something about soldiers and presumably ninja being able to sleep in any conditions, since the opportunities for safe sleep might be few and far between?
 
What even is the Mangeyoki Iron Nerve anyway?

Is there such a thing as the Eternal Mangeyoki Iron Nerve? Maybe we can skip a step and go there directly.
Purely hypothetical so far, player speculation that since the Iron Nerve is an offshoot of the Sharingan it should also have a second form like the Sharingan.

The most common thought about the hypothetical Mangekyou Iron Nerve - as well as explanation for why it is unknown - is that since the Mangekyou Sharingan is unlocked from the trauma of watching a loved one die, and the Iron Nerve is a mutation of the Sharingan focused inward, on the self, clearly the Mangekyou Iron Nerve is unlocked from the trauma of watching yourself die.

Believe me, we've been making this joke forever.

The rest is more fuzzy and situational. We've spitballed plenty about what "self-oriented" versions of various Sharingan powers would be, and once necromancy became a serious prospect we've always sort of kept one eye open to the prospect of maybe one day seeing if it really exists or not. It's a silly idea, but not entirely implausible, nor unfalsifiable.

And, well, it looks like that day is today. If we do choose to continue the quest in the afterlife, then Hazou will have made a self-sacrifice play (in accepting the bioseals) that resulted in his own death, solidly matching the hypothetical unlock conditions for this hypothetical evolution to the Iron Nerve. If it doesn't happen now, it never will.

(And of course, no other Kurosawa has the Mangekyou Iron Nerve, so even if the Eternal Mangekyou Iron Nerve is a thing we currently have no way of obtaining it. Presumably this means, if the Mangekyou Iron Nerve exists, extended use of it will degrade our entire nervous system. Not fun, hopefully we'd be able to find some kind of workaround.)
 
If Mangekyo Iron Nerve exists, then a Rinnegan-type evolution would also exist, wouldn't it?
 
Hm... the lore explanation for the Iron Nerve is that whatever chakra magic normally occupies the Uchiha eye + optic nerve is instead spread throughout the rest of the nervous system. I don't think you can have multiple bloodline limits*, presumably (?) because of some marker the Sage put when designing them. But in this case the marker would be the same, just applied to two different bodily systems. Therefore it may not be impossible to stack them.

When two Kurosawa mate, there's a small chance of a Sharingan baby, but that kid's Sharingan doesn't breed true, so they would never have gotten the opportunity to experiment: if a full-blooded Uchiha and a Kurosawa have a kid, is there a chance the kid has _both_ the Sharingan and the Iron Nerve? Technically it's not two different bloodline limits, but the same mutation affecting both the eyes and the rest of the body.

Just the two abilities additively would be power enough to give any of their rivals pause, to say nothing of the potential synergies (a Mangekyo evolution powered by the entire body's chakra system instead of just the eyes? Mangekyo techniques that distribute the strain across the entire nervous system, and therefore are more sustainable?). The Uchiha have access to centuries of lore about their bloodline limit, dating to before the Hidden Village system. They may have the resources to theorycraft this. You could probably confirm viability by describing the theory to Kabuto or Tsunade.

*Barring scientific / genetic outliers like Kakuzu and Terumi Mei
This also has some Interesting Ways the good effect a theoretical Mangekyo Iron Nerve

If Mangekyo Iron Nerve exists, then a Rinnegan-type evolution would also exist, wouldn't it?

I don't think the two Blood limits are related in mark for death. Though I don't think it's ever been confirmed or Denied.
 
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At the last minute, we desperately overdraw our coils, straining the coil bioseals and causing a Ch.586-style sealing failure that sends us back whatever timespan. We wake up in our past body but with our future memories, à la β-timeline.
Perhaps a Minatosealing failure, attempting to compare nonvisual Iron Nerve imprints of the bioseals immediately before and after the killswitch was triggered, then grab and reverse the trigger mechanism by a method so secret that Orochimaru couldn't possibly have anticipated it?
 
If Mangekyo Iron Nerve exists, then a Rinnegan-type evolution would also exist, wouldn't it?
Canonically, the Rinnegan isn't really an evolution of the Sharingan. It's instead specifically what you get when you have the chakra of Hagoromo Otsutsuki. Like, specifically his chakra, it's not a bloodline, it's just him.

The way this works out is that you get the Rinnegan through one of two ways: either Hagoromo gives his chakra to you directly, which he can do despite being long dead or something because Kishimoto, or you can combine the chakras of Hagoromo's two sons, Indra and Asura.

Indra and Asura are the ancestors of the Uchiha and Senju clans, respectively, but that's not to say that you can just mix Uchiha and Senju and get the Rinnegan. No, you need specifically Indra and Asura's chakra. And it just so happens that they "reincarnate" every once in a while, giving the most prominent Uchiha/Senju of their times their own chakra signatures. In the events of Naruto, the most prominent case of this is Hashirama (reincarnation of Asura) and Madara (reincarnation of Indra). So if you mix Hashirama chakra and Madara chakra, you get Hagoromo chakra and the Rinnegan.

This leads to, if memory serves, an old and dying Madara injecting himself with Hashirama Cells, and thus the Rinnegan, which he then removed from himself and implanted into a child for some reason so that he could instruct one of his minions to manipulate the child to resurrect Madara once grown up so that Madara can then take the Rinnegans back and use them to free Kaguya. Because Kishimoto.

But the crux of it all is that Madara didn't "evolve" his Sharingan into a Rinnegan so much as his Sharingans got overwritten by Rinnegans when he hit their special unlock requirements. I think you could probably get the Rinnegan even without starting from the Sharingan if you managed to swipe Hashirama cells and Madara cells, or something of the sort.

In Marked for Death... who knows lol. The QMs aren't too fond of the whole rabbit goddess arc of Naruto so lategame stuff like that cannot be relied on to be remotely accurate. The closest we have to Rinnegan lore is that Orochimaru thinks it shows up every 1000 years, but that's far from enough to answer our questions. Still, it's very plausible that Pain was simply born with the Rinnegan, no Sharingan required, and I would be very doubtful at the idea of, say, Sasuke progressing his Sharingan far enough that it evolves into the Rinnegan.

And as this pertains to us... even if we somehow contrived for another person with a Mangekyou Iron Nerve to exist, and then swapped nervous systems with them to achieve the Eternal Mangekyou Iron Nerve, that would certainly be the end of it. There's just no way we get to upgrade from there to a Rinne Nerve when even the regular Rinnegan isn't an evolution of the Sharingan.
 
Purely hypothetical so far, player speculation that since the Iron Nerve is an offshoot of the Sharingan it should also have a second form like the Sharingan.

The most common thought about the hypothetical Mangekyou Iron Nerve - as well as explanation for why it is unknown - is that since the Mangekyou Sharingan is unlocked from the trauma of watching a loved one die, and the Iron Nerve is a mutation of the Sharingan focused inward, on the self, clearly the Mangekyou Iron Nerve is unlocked from the trauma of watching yourself die.
The theory that it requires watching yourself die never sat right with me because it leaves out the involvement of a loved one. I think it requires watching a loved one kill you, and that's why Snowflake should kill Hazō. It'll unlock his Mangekyou Iron Nerve, trust me. She's doing him a favor, really. He'll get better.
 
People on the discord have been saying our clan is doomed due to lack of Sealmasters. This is wrong - we can generate large amounts of money via Noburi now that SC training is known to people like Sasuke.
No, our clan is doomed because most of them are probably already dead. I really hope we don't meet Honoka in the afterlife...

Not that I'm in favour of a long afterlife quest, anyway.

Ami makes more sense as an NPC, but her distinct brand of chaos and hypercompetence fits the playerbase really well.
No. The limitations of the detailed-plan rational quest medium (and QM spoons) make Ami plans completely impossible for the player base to run. She's the worst possible PC IMO.
 
Hi there,

Long time reader, took me over a year to read the story posts.

I caught up around when Hazo left Leaf a second time and have followed the thread more regularly since. Within the last two months I've read most new posts because it started to be a fun way to spend time waiting for the sweet sweet high of a new update.

Which, thank you all for being a part of this. This quest has become such a treat to read every week.

All of you amazing QMs and players are to thank for it.

The recent focus on candor and clear communication jutsu has been impressive and inspiring. I've learned about more than just tabletop gaming and storytelling from y'all.

I'd like to finally contribute to this game that's given me such joy and despair.

It's unfortunate I'm contributing only after Hazo managed to become proliferated across the mortal Path but I've read a lot of possibilities that have me excited for what's in store next!

I'm going to share some thoughts on what I'd like to see in a second post. It's over 1200 words though :V, so I'm apprehensive to post it in it's current form as a giant block of text early in the morning. Any advice on that front? I don't want to commit to a faux pas as my first contribution.

Can I PM it to someone for a sanity check? Also can someone else PM me to sanity check the conversation I plan to have with my sanity checker? Thanks!
 
Hi there,

Long time reader, took me over a year to read the story posts.

I caught up around when Hazo left Leaf a second time and have followed the thread more regularly since. Within the last two months I've read most new posts because it started to be a fun way to spend time waiting for the sweet sweet high of a new update.

Which, thank you all for being a part of this. This quest has become such a treat to read every week.

All of you amazing QMs and players are to thank for it.

The recent focus on candor and clear communication jutsu has been impressive and inspiring. I've learned about more than just tabletop gaming and storytelling from y'all.

I'd like to finally contribute to this game that's given me such joy and despair.

It's unfortunate I'm contributing only after Hazo managed to become proliferated across the mortal Path but I've read a lot of possibilities that have me excited for what's in store next!

I'm going to share some thoughts on what I'd like to see in a second post. It's over 1200 words though :V, so I'm apprehensive to post it in it's current form as a giant block of text early in the morning. Any advice on that front? I don't want to commit to a faux pas as my first contribution.

Can I PM it to someone for a sanity check? Also can someone else PM me to sanity check the conversation I plan to have with my sanity checker? Thanks!
If you post your bigass response in a spoiler
Insert as much text as you like here.

Then the size doesn't matter at all! Though I would think that in this thread in particular, people are quite used to long posts and you'd be fine even without the spoiler. I can at least appreciate not wanting to take up too much space when posting something of questionable value, as I've felt the same way on many occasions.

With that said, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're all happy to hear you enjoyed the story so far and look forward to seeing your active participation, even if the timing is slightly less than perfect.

I don't know how valuable I'd be as a sanity checker, but if you're still apprehensive about posting I suppose I can take a look? I'm sure it's not really needed, but I don't want to leave you hanging if you insist upon it.
 
If you post your bigass response in a spoiler
Insert as much text as you like here.

Then the size doesn't matter at all! Though I would think that in this thread in particular, people are quite used to long posts and you'd be fine even without the spoiler. I can at least appreciate not wanting to take up too much space when posting something of questionable value, as I've felt the same way on many occasions.

With that said, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we're all happy to hear you enjoyed the story so far and look forward to seeing your active participation, even if the timing is slightly less than perfect.

I don't know how valuable I'd be as a sanity checker, but if you're still apprehensive about posting I suppose I can take a look? I'm sure it's not really needed, but I don't want to leave you hanging if you insist upon it.

I really appreciate the open minded response and the help! :)

I'm being slightly tongue in cheek but I'll gladly take you up on the offer to check out my thoughts
 
The question is, who?
My opinion is for one of the OG two: Kei or Noburi. They've been with us as PC teammates since the beginning and IIRC they were originally meant to be our replacement PCs.

Perhaps a Minatosealing failure, attempting to compare nonvisual Iron Nerve imprints of the bioseals immediately before and after the killswitch was triggered, then grab and reverse the trigger mechanism by a method so secret that Orochimaru couldn't possibly have anticipated it?
Interesting idea. I like the concept, but I don't think it would would work because bioseals are not minatoseals and minatoseals are not bioseals; bioseals are inscribed on flesh or bones, whereas minatoseals are inscribed on the chakra system itself. There's not any way for them to interact by default.

The theory that it requires watching yourself die never sat right with me because it leaves out the involvement of a loved one. I think it requires watching a loved one kill you, and that's why Snowflake should kill Hazō. It'll unlock his Mangekyou Iron Nerve, trust me. She's doing him a favor, really. He'll get better.
And we deserve it too for getting killed by Snuncle Warcrimes and also for being terminally romcom-blind.

If this is the case, we have a decent chance of survival, and they should've waited maybe. Oro could die against them, and they could easily take months to reach us.
Maybe. I think the idea was that, in practice, we'd need to go get the seal maintained at least once, meaning we can't avoid him via SC forever. So if he sees that we're being cautious he'd kill us when he "maintains" the seal.

Wait… I only just now realized that Orochimaru has literally given us a cursed seal. And it made us more powerful. Are we sure that we didn't cross over into the canon-verse?
 
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Ouch, I think you're right. Well, shows who else hasn't gotten much sleep, I guess!

I'll think it over and see if I can get it to fit somehow.
Surely Jashin is powerful enough to inject additional memories to a Shadow Clone dispel.

I don't want to do anything with Jashin.
I think the ship may have already sailed on that one, considering how many times Hazou has prayed to Jashin.
 
And as this pertains to us... even if we somehow contrived for another person with a Mangekyou Iron Nerve to exist, and then swapped nervous systems with them to achieve the Eternal Mangekyou Iron Nerve, that would certainly be the end of it. There's just no way we get to upgrade from there to a Rinne Nerve when even the regular Rinnegan isn't an evolution of the Sharingan.
What we need is to evolve the SharinGAINS first
 
Apologies in advance for the text bomb. :V

So I read all the conversation in the discord since chapter 702 dropped for all the laughs it gave me and to see if this would be a potentially useful contribution:

One of the more appealing ideas to me is exploring the other Paths.

Personally, I want Hazo to truly contend with what Orochimaru said to him.

I want his death to have an impact on him. To see some movement on an arc for him (which to me appears less likely in Leaf). To get Hazo on a journey that's satisfying for the players and the QMs.

A very logical thing for Hazo to do for many reasons is head back to leaf ASAP and handle business for those he cares about. I suppose you could have time be moving unevenly but how does Hazo know that? (someone could tell him, King of Hell?)

If he doesn't know, he should be acting under the assumption that time runs the same or potentially faster on the Human path.

As I understand the QM model of the world, Hazo would be safe in leaf and could stick to light-housing. And after what he just went through, why wouldn't he?

I suppose Akatsuki is potentially at the door and won't believe the rift and Orochimaru aren't there, at least not immediately. Digging in fortifications is interesting, but it's not the most exciting thing.

I suppose Jashin's immortality could lure Hazo into battle but it feels like we're leaving cloned meat on the bone when there's a juicy possibility ahead.

What if Hazo goes on a trip to another path more immediately after dying, a path we haven't seen before.

Why?

It gives time for a character arc that wouldn't be possible around old characters.

It puts Hazo in new and (even) stranger circumstances.

Those alien circumstances are an opportunity for growth and trauma through internalizing the lesson Orochimaru taught him. To become strong enough that he can protect his secrets and his goals (Uplift). Perhaps Hazopilot becomes a little less sharing and feeling like he must be the beacon by which Uplift shines all the time (less Uplift fuck yeah speeches?). It's a loss of something profound, it's a sacrifice of part of his character and it can be temporary while he goes through this arc. A thematic cost for the boons Jashin/Iron nerve give. Could be a good time to replace or begin to replace his Foot-In-Mouth aspect. It's not where he'll end as a character but I'd like to see him drift and pay a cost at least temporarily. I'm sure when he sees his family again, he'll drift back but not be the exact same. There might be some bittersweet feelings of the changes in himself and what he missed with Team Uplift.

There's an opportunity here for them to grow and accomplish things in Hazo's absence, which is also very interesting for me.

Perhaps the rift Jashin leads him toward is a connection to one of the other paths and whatever's in charge there won't let him leave without completing a grand quest (A fae-like set of beings?). We know Summon Bosses can prevent dimensional travel through summoning. Through some mechanism (a binding fey promise, the being in charge controlling the dimensional 'key' to safely get out) Hazo cannot trivially escape. This being can also inform him of dimensional time shenanigans so he's at least not catastrophically concerned about getting home (or informs him after he is catastrophically concerned).

I realize this is similar to the idea of The King of Hell giving a quest which someone brought up, I like the idea!

With this version of events, Orochimaru's resurrection plans have an even more obscured timeline due to Hazo being on a new path.

Given inconsistencies in the flow of time among the paths, Hazo can re-enter the main narrative when it's most fun.

Hazo can become the Sage of Three paths. Or Four or Five, I wouldn't complain (I don't want him to trivialize his opponents in a short period away but I don't have strong ideas or feelings on power levels beyond that)

Extra paths open up opportunities for more or less time cost options and commensurate rewards. Go to double-time path and risk the consequences but you can get some incredible stuff. It's an interesting cost to explore after Hazo's work squeezing every second of value out of the day. Could easily go wrong so perhaps with the value proposition clearly stated.

I don't expect it'll make sense for Hazo to want to increase the length of his journey away if he can help it without being forced to or changing his characterization but one can dream of adventures. It's probably also a lot to ask of QMs to create multiple paths back to back.

Maybe one of the places we can go can be something like a pocket dimension (less work than a whole path) the Sage or his companions setup for supplies that has a puzzle one can solve with the hive mind and being a rune master. Maybe we find runes to copy or copy some esoteric and exotic stuff with the Iron Nerve giving TYS points or a bonus to that sealing feat. Or a journal that humanizes the Sage or his companion just a little. Or something blood-chilling on the nature of Jashin, this entity now tied to us further.

Maybe we find Whirlpool's pocket dimension. Could be a fun place to be stuck for a while, they would certainly appreciate our sealing… might not let us escape though.

The idea of a new path does kick the can on resurrection even further down the road which some folk have been long awaiting and working toward so that's a point against this idea. Counterpoint: What would a resurrection war with Orochimaru look like? Is that fun?

Also, it would be amazing to see Akane, Jiraiya and other characters from the setting as well.

Pretty excited to see them come back to the human path, reconnect with Hazo, everyone they care for and help with the many problems.

But if it happens too soon or with too many S Rank Leaf badasses I worry it trivializes the setting in a way that isn't satisfying.

Daydreaming here:

Don't we want to punch Snuncle's head off using a combination of some awesome new minatosealing that combine with our fists. Perhaps a minatosealing counter to his bioseals, make HIS chakra network explode. It'd be a very poetic way to end him.

To be clear, I have no idea how minatosealing works so that might be really silly but exploding Orochimaru seems like raddest thing we can do. Am I right people? Using a sealing discipline he didn't know about, even better. And after that lesson on not giving away secrets too easily. If we can murder him with sealing in conjunction with traditional Ninja methods (like fists) even better, Orochimaru can see he taught us the last lesson well. No monologue, we don't expect him to come back to learn from this experience (though maybe destroying his contingencies as well is a reach even in a daydream)

Circling back to the new Path Hazo explores:

It can be a great way to explore themes and answer questions we've been building toward. What if they're an Uplifted society? What does conflict in a post Uplift world look like? Are there problems Hazo would expect to not exist? What does their understanding of lore of the setting look like? Perhaps information on the Sage and other beings is more common given the stability on the path?

Feel free to take anything and nothing from this y'all. I hope it was interesting or sparks thoughts. It's probably clear from what I wrote, I'm interested in the narrative, lore and loot at least as much as punching. It may not be everyone's cup of tea and I'm not trying to write a fan fiction (Though with the length of this post maybe I accomplished that…). I hope these ideas are worth sharing.

Let me know what you like, don't like. Any and all responses are welcome!

Many of the popular ideas I've seen put forth are very fun and interesting so whether any of this is relevant or not I'm very excited to see what's in store!
 
After Orochimaru's recent 'conversation' about how we didn't seek out with power/lore, I have a new appreciation for why the world is falling apart. And he's even more of a participant than most.

Let's say the Sannin looted 10 "places of lore". 4 they destroyed behind them, sealing off sources of power. 4 they left in one piece to use again, or they killed off some but not all of the knowers, or it's something that spawns over time. They don't mention it to anyone else, aside from maybe their 'nephew' before murdering him. 1 they will share with other powerful people that they trust, like each other or their mentor, if they weren't there for the raid, confident that the other party won't proliferate it. The last 1, the strong technique they don't use regularly, or magic pond they've gotten use out of, they trade away to people for more sources of power. 1, arguably two new things entered circulation, but 4 left. And when they die, all the rest die with them. These numbers are obviously made up, but I think it's safe to say that shares less than they've taken and burned behind them.

That's not even counting when things are destroyed wholesale, like whatever knowledge was lost when half of Leaf was collapsed.

Now, all this relies on the fact that new lore sources aren't being developed, and they are. But Hazou is an insane outlier in the "discover new paradigms and get access to friendly Essie (clan boss) front", especially for his stat line. I feel like, everywhere that isn't within 500m of Hazou, the creation rate is lower than the loss rate, especially given population shrinking.

His comments are clearly from the perspective that one individual gaining max knowledge is the goal. And of course he thinks he's ✨special✨, so he's better than everyone and therefore it's fine. And if he were our age, he'd curse that some ancient lore was effectively lost forever from being known to anyone else, even if he would do the same when he grew up. Because he can't imagine a world other than the one he lives in, and doesn't care to change it. And his ego and survival are more important than any other upside.

Truly, Orochimaru lacks both ambition AND vision. No wonder he's got such mixed feelings about us and our "stupidity". We're willing to take the swing that he was never willing to, and it benefited him without him even having to kill us. He likely wouldn't have gotten rune crafting if we weren't pro social, it's too complex to torture out of a sample of 1 with only 1 demo, and that thought has probably occurred to him as well. He and the place he called home once benefited (twice, including the riftwar) from us being "stupid and naive", in a way he couldn't otherwise get. And I bet that galls him to no end, even if he won't admit to himself that were just the better runecrafter than him (which we are, based on the fact that he was impressed by what we showed him, we didn't show him nearly everything, and we did almost all his rift research as an afterthought).

In short: he is the problem, he sees us as the potential solution he could never be, and he hates it. And even if he's successful in his goal, he'll end up alone, forever, as humanity dies.

(No, this entire analysis isn't just a dis post because I'm mad that he killed us, why do you ask?)
 
Truly, Orochimaru lacks both ambition AND vision. No wonder he's got such mixed feelings about us and our "stupidity". We're willing to take the swing that he was never willing to, and it benefited him without him even having to kill us. He likely wouldn't have gotten rune crafting if we weren't pro social, it's too complex to torture out of a sample of 1 with only 1 demo, and that thought has probably occurred to him as well. He and the place he called home once benefited (twice, including the riftwar) from us being "stupid and naive", in a way he couldn't otherwise get. And I bet that galls him to no end, even if he won't admit to himself that were just the better runecrafter than him (which we are, based on the fact that he was impressed by what we showed him, we didn't show him nearly everything, and we did almost all his rift research as an afterthought).

In short: he is the problem, he sees us as the potential solution he could never be, and he hates it.

I just posted with a fantasy of killing Oro with no monologue.

Maybe one monologue, as a treat.

I hope this read is accurate and Tsunade tells him. It would be so delicious.
 
His comments are clearly from the perspective that one individual gaining max knowledge is the goal.
I would note that Oro is the pinnacle of this kind of ethos, in the same way that Hidan is the high priest of (death) Jashinism. By contrast, Hazo's ethos is one of prosocial cooperation, knowledge creation/distribution, and uplift.

And Hazo fucking died.

The parameters of the simulation do not reward knowledge creation (see Oro's monologue about creating techniques after growing strong enough to keep them). The simulation does not reward cooperation: see Noburi balking at being told to learn from the Chakravores, or the endless go-nowhere meetings about telescope-supplier-contracts, or the (different) endless meetings about skysliders.

Hazo deserved a Jonin aura from day one of Uplift, because he has been enforcing his view of the world during all social interactions (just like every other Essie). And like every other Essie, he either ignores or punishes people who try to defect from his paradigm.

So actually, Oro killing Hazo strikes me as a concluding statement about the hyperparameters of the simulation. The low-martial strategy is strategically dominated by Oro's capture and extraction approach. Hell, look at the Conclave:

We finessed the Conclave to (diplomatically) produce the largest force concentration in history. We assembled, motivated, and aimed the bosses at the Dragons - for the Bosses' own benefit - and did not get a jutsu, an unstagnation, a legendary artifact, a gift of arachnid-splinter silk pajamas…

So while the QMs may or may not endorse Oro's method of how the Sanin got to S-rank, it certainly appears to be *ontologically* privileged in a way that Hazo's 21st century information-proliferation methods are not.
 
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