At this point, I rather suspect he has been 100% honest with us and not secretly included any traps in our shiny new bioseals that will be useful as long as we get maintenance every few months and kill us otherwise.

If he did set out to make a tamper-resistant killswitch I'd not expect Hazō to be able to remove it though, sounds like something that would take an opposed biosealing roll and he's got a lot of biosealing. Better odds on Tsunade mednin vs. biosealing being allowed, better odds on die-then-come-back being feasible.

In the long run, we'd want to be putting bioseals on humans regardless, of course; it seems to be the most potent use of the discipline.
The #1 thing I'd want from biosealing for is to make something like the Wakahisa koi, tame-ish chakra beasts with coils big enough to usefully drain.
But also I don't want biosealing; any XP spend on it delays Minatosealing
 
Last edited:
But also I don't want biosealing; any XP spend on it delays Minatosealing
I also don't think we should get biosealing before Minatosealing (though I am more interested in it), since I'm very sceptical of the whole "learn biosealing to unravel Oro's dastardly schemes" thing, and besides TH 40 is useful to have on its own in a way that the medicals aren't for us with Noburi in the party. But I definitely will want it once we've softcapped Minatosealing, swallowed the medical notes, and are in a good place combat-wise. Maybe after Lightning Element?
 
@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien

A few TH-hacking questions:
  • If we make a single attempt on a TH project that turns out to difficult, stop the project, and then restart it a substantial amount of time later, will the restarted project still have a higher TN on it from the previous attempt?
  • If we attempt a TH project repeatedly and annoy chakra into raising the difficulty, will that increased difficulty be permanent or would it fade eventually?
  • If we attempt a TH project repeatedly and annoy chakra into raising the difficulty, will the increased difficulty affect other people or pangolins who attempt a similar project?
  • Would a technique hacker who is exceptionally skilled in seduction have an advantage when performing technique hacking?
Hi all! (@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien)

Just checking up to see if these questions were still under discussion! Thanks.
 
As I understand it, developing practical biosealing requires a steady stream of live, disposable bodies.
Not inherently. Note that Orochimaru was able to use biosealing to create Superhealthy Rice, which Hiruzen ordered Fire Country's farmers to switch to. Hazou, himself, noted that Orochimaru has likely saved the lives of more ninja than he's killed with that one invention (which isn't a statement of support, but more an indication of the good that biosealing can do).

I suspect (but do not know, as I am not a QM) that learning the biosealing stunt requires a certain amount of human sacrifices (so that you know how to do human biosealing at all), but that much in the same way, you also need chakra beasts and chakra plants, to learn how to do Beast-specific and Plant-specific Biosealing.

The general plan, as I understand it, is to focus on biosealing plants and chakra beasts to our needs, rather than relying on human experimentation.

An example of what I'm talking about might be a vine that is inert until sprayed with a paired biosealed liquid mixture, causing the biosealed vine to coil around our legs, aiding in movement add a bonus to our movement.

MadScientist, in particular, had some really solid ideas, way back, but they've asked us not to ping them in the thread.

Is the plan to announce that we're joining his lab after the riftwar to have him or Kabuto teach us biosealing?

As I understand it, the plan is to ask Orochimaru to order Kabuto, or one of his other disposable assets, to teach us biosealing (Endou Sora is my preferred choice, since Mari said that she seemed Uplift-adjacent, and we have a good track record with converting people to the Light Side... but I could also see narrative potential in learning from Kabuto, or a different mook).

Obviously there's is a reputational and caldera risk since immediately deciding to join Oro's lab looks exactly like he's corrupted us. But more importantly, if we're learning biosealing because we're worried that Oro didn't act in good faith, putting ourself under his thumb for weeks/months on end in the seat of his power seems like a disastrous play.

I think the reputational threat is less than you may think. Hazou is already considered insane by nine different metrics, and Shino proved that people already fear interacting with Hazou. Biosealing isn't really going to change that, it'll be just another thing for them to be concerned about (which will go away once they realize we bioseal plants and chakra beasts, not people).

Besides: Jiraiya and Tsunade are biosealers, too, they just didn't specialize as hard into it as Orochimaru did. And the Sannin are worshipped by Leaf as a whole. So "scary biosealer" is something that can be overcome... and Hazou's Uplift projects will certainly help in that regard :p

Further, once we kill the Akatsuki, we'll be swimming in so much political goodwill that we can afford to spend a little bit of it. Especially if Mari can spin it to the public in a better light. And that spinning will be doubly effective once we start using biosealing for Uplift purposes (more nutritious crops, more docile chakra cattle for civilians, etc).

And as for the Caldera Threat? I don't think it's really all that high. Explain that we're learning it to dismantle Orochimaru's bioseals, and that we can use it, cautiously, as a tool for Uplift. That's sufficiently Hazou-esque that it'll draw aggravated sighs and hands-through-hair, but not murder plots.


Do we have anything he wants that badly and if so would we be willing to give it to him?

Honestly, I think we're going to be building a lot of goodwill with Orochimaru, here. We also gave him, like hella good research notes for a lot of solid runes that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to do on his own (from time constraints, if nothing else).

If we were going to ask Orochimaru for his personal tutorship, then I'd say we need to break out the shinies for trade. But if we're just asking Orochimaru to give us a biosealing minion for a few weeks? Well, Orochimaru is going to be laser focused on Runecrafting, so it's not like he needs a biosealing research assistant right now.

And Orochimaru is also hella vulnerable to rationalism and flattery, so if we play those up during the initial conversation, I could see him loaning us a disposable mook (like Endou Sora) for free. Or at a hecking reduced price that's more about "not being seen giving stuff away" than any actual profits or gains.


an opposed biosealing roll

FWIW, between DoB, the inherent Sealing cross over bonus (similar to Runecrafting's bonus), and Biosealing being a single cost stat under Sealing, itself, we could easily get Biosealing to the eff 60s. After that, we just drop invokes on pre-prepared Aspects, and boom, there ya go.

I don't think that beating the roll is going to be the difficult part here, but if it is, then yeah, we can always just ask Tsunade (who is also a biosealer) to help us out.
 
Well, Orochimaru is going to be laser focused on Runecrafting, so it's not like he needs a biosealing research assistant right now.

Probably correct, but he still cares.
As they stepped in, another Orochimaru standing over one of the people glanced at them, raised an eyebrow, then quickly stepped out.

we could easily get Biosealing to the eff 60s.

3-6 month dedicated training might still be problem.

Still, overall we can probably play around with chakra beasts. And we don't have to fully commit right now.

Maybe Sasori dies in a way where we can just loot some more lootboxes.
 
I don't think that beating the roll is going to be the difficult part here, but if it is, then yeah, we can always just ask Tsunade (who is also a biosealer) to help us out.
Citation needed on Tsunade being a biosealer, please - my understanding was that Tsunade knew nothing about sealing and her collabs with Oro were on purely medical stuff (or TH, I guess).

3-6 month dedicated training might still be problem.
This is probably outdated - neither the Earth Infusion nor Minatosealing stunts include a specified time requirement, and the 3-6 month requirement is not replicated in the Known Stunts document. I asked the QMs about this, but I don't think I've got an answer back yet.
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien Question. The Biosealer stunt claims to require teaching over the course of 3-6 months of dedicated study, according to the original Informational post, though this is not replicated in the Known Stunts document. However, the Earth Infusion stunt doesn't list a time requirement, and nor does Minatosealing (and indeed Oro was able to learn Earth Infusion in less than a month) despite PS being more distant from Sealing than biosealing is (as evidenced by BS being halfcost under Sealing while PS isn't). Is the requirement for 3-6 months of teaching outdated (and changed to just "someone to teach you or equivalent" as with the other styles) or does Hazō think biosealing is particularly difficult to learn?

For comparison, here's the original reveal of the biosealing stunt:
Biosealing Stunt Header

Hazou has spent over 500 hours of subjective time reading through a collection of Orochimaru and Jiraiya's forays into biosealing in order to grasp the various sealing insights contained within. However, now that Hazou has acquired level 10 in Medical Knowledge, he understands a bit more about the notes.

Specifically, he has a general sense of what biosealing is, and of how hard it would be to learn to replicate some of the things that Orochimaru and Jiraiya are doing in these projects. We're releasing the stunt header for Biosealer, which unlocks the ability to create seals on living creatures.


And here's the version in the Known Stunts document:
Known Stunts said:

Biosealer

Cost: 125
Prereqs: Sealsmith, Sealing 40, MedKnow 30, MedNin 30, Calligraphy 30, (recommended) Carving 30, willingness to accept you will eventually have your face eaten by horrors of your own creation.
The same, except for missing the line about needing 3-6 months of dedicated study.
 
I also don't think we should get biosealing before Minatosealing (though I am more interested in it), since I'm very sceptical of the whole "learn biosealing to unravel Oro's dastardly schemes" thing, and besides TH 40 is useful to have on its own in a way that the medicals aren't for us with Noburi in the party. But I definitely will want it once we've softcapped Minatosealing, swallowed the medical notes, and are in a good place combat-wise. Maybe after Lightning Element?

I just don't think as far out as 3500+ XP mostly, plus still expecting build plans to change once we unlock Minatosealing

FWIW, between DoB, the inherent Sealing cross over bonus (similar to Runecrafting's bonus), and Biosealing being a single cost stat under Sealing, itself, we could easily get Biosealing to the eff 60s. After that, we just drop invokes on pre-prepared Aspects, and boom, there ya go.

Huh. Sounds crazy to me, but if the numbers add up that way, maybe it would work if it comes to that. Die temporarily also seems like a potentially good option, if we've the resolve for it.

Maybe Sasori dies in a way where we can just loot some more lootboxes.
IIRC QMs don't like 'lootboxes' and plan on not including any more
 
I just don't think as far out as 3500+ XP mostly, plus still expecting build plans to change once we unlock Minatosealing
Fair. Personally, I'm very doubtful about the utility of Minatosealing - it's not immediately obvious that the ability to make seals on your chakra system would be all that powerful? Plus I'm worried about the requirement to put in some amount of ongoing effort to keep the seals from unraveling; that sounds both incredibly stressful and also something that will seriously reduce our willingness to make use of them. (Like, imagine if we make a Minatoseal, then we get Oro's extra chakra coil removed and that process disrupts the Minatoseal and causes a sealing failure.) We don't even know if it's possible to remove Minatoseals after creating them.

We should definitely unlock it, for the bijuu sealing chain if nothing else; but I'm sceptical that it'll have much impact on our build.
 
We should definitely unlock it, for the bijuu sealing chain if nothing else; but I'm sceptical that it'll have much impact on our build.
We'll probably keep Minatosealing in the 20s or 30s, meaning Eff 50s or 60s.

Really, the most "pressing" part of Minatosealing is the fact that it requires a 40-slot for THing, but with Mednin/Medknow lootboxes, we'll have enough 30 stats to make space for it. Especially with PEA and BRI being pretty good pyramid fodder... Heck, if we can Tweak Earth Pillar Jump into a Supplemental Movement jutsu (a la Vacuum Step), then I could see that also serving as useful pyramid fodder.
 
Die temporarily also seems like a potentially good option, if we've the resolve for it.
Having now read the chapter*, it sounds like Kei and Kagome are prepared to handle this for us if it's called for, so I can be much less concerned.

It's also another tally for "I'm glad Kei was on top of this situation, since we sure weren't". I must say that while I don't like Kei, I do appreciate her. Kagome on the other hand has long been my favorite character and I hope that it's not too long before we see him again somehow.

*To be clear I would not normally get involved in discussion when not caught up with story posts, IIRC this is the only time I've done it yet
 
We'll probably keep Minatosealing in the 20s or 30s, meaning Eff 50s or 60s.
Really? I assumed we'd just rush straight for the softcap; I hadn't even considered that we might leave it below that. When I talked about it not having much impact on our build, I meant in terms of not changing how we invest in other stats; we want TH 40 regardless and an extra single-cost 30-something is pretty trivial.

My hope is mostly that making seals that integrate with jutsu is powerful, and making the seals on your chakra system happens to be the way to accomplish that
I hadn't considered this - this is a good point. We're not a ninjutsu spec and aren't likely to become one, so it might not be that good for us, but it's plausible and definitely worth investigating.

The Kage of Hidden Leaf thought it was revolutionary and world-changing.
Yes, but he also invented it (so was biased) and was probably being flippant with the name - this is not a reliable indicator that it actually is that strong.
 
Really? I assumed we'd just rush straight for the softcap; I hadn't even considered that we might leave it below that.
30-mumble is the softcap, since it beings it up to 60-mumble. 20-mumble would bring it up to 50-mumble.

If Minatosealing is like Biosealing (normal cost under Sealing), then we'll probably raise it to the softcap, but if it's a doublecost stat, then there's a decent argument to leave it in the eff 50s. Especially if what we want Minatosealing for can be achieved with eff 50s.
 
PSA: Expectation management

tl;dr: Tomorrow will be an interlude, Thursday will be the parts of the previous plan that weren't finished.


Long form:

The previous plan got voted in while I was having some bad sleep issues (at least partially self-inflicted, so I can't complain too much), which meant that I didn't have the juice to write the vast majority of it. It also includes some things that will require QM consensus, such as how Tsunade et al react to the "raid the Moon" plan. @Velorien and @Paperclipped have their own reasons for being low on spoons at the moment, which meant that we didn't get to the consensing during the week. Sadly, we weren't able to meet this morning either, so we've bumped the QM meeting until early morning tomorrow and hopefully will get everything nailed down then or, if not, during the week.

Tomorrow will be a light and fluffy interlude, something wholesome and sweet and relaxing before we plunge into the whole <music type="death metal">raid the Moon an' drain 'em all! Raar! Murder the evil guys! Waaayooo! Death! Slay! Kill for powah! Sell your soul to the devil, aaaahhh! Rebuild society in your own image, raaargh!</music>(1) arc of the quest.

(1) I honestly have no idea what the lyrics for death metal sound like. Hopefully they are counter-cultural, iconoclastic, and intentionally norm-violating so I'll have gotten the tone right and look hip.(2)
(2) Important tip on how to sound hip: don't tell people that you're trying to sound hip.(3)
(3) Second important tip: no one has used the word 'hip' unironically in a decade. The up-to-date slang is 'en fleek'.
 
PSA: Expectation management

tl;dr: Tomorrow will be an interlude, Thursday will be the parts of the previous plan that weren't finished.


Long form:

The previous plan got voted in while I was having some bad sleep issues (at least partially self-inflicted, so I can't complain too much), which meant that I didn't have the juice to write the vast majority of it. It also includes some things that will require QM consensus, such as how Tsunade et al react to the "raid the Moon" plan. @Velorien and @Paperclipped have their own reasons for being low on spoons at the moment, which meant that we didn't get to the consensing during the week. Sadly, we weren't able to meet this morning either, so we've bumped the QM meeting until early morning tomorrow and hopefully will get everything nailed down then or, if not, during the week.

Tomorrow will be a light and fluffy interlude, something wholesome and sweet and relaxing before we plunge into the whole <music type="death metal">raid the Moon an' drain 'em all! Raar! Murder the evil guys! Waaayooo! Death! Slay! Kill for powah! Sell your soul to the devil, aaaahhh! Rebuild society in your own image, raaargh!</music>(1) arc of the quest.

(1) I honestly have no idea what the lyrics for death metal sound like. Hopefully they are counter-cultural, iconoclastic, and intentionally norm-violating so I'll have gotten the tone right and look hip.(2)​
(2) Important tip on how to sound hip: don't tell people that you're trying to sound hip.(3)​
(3) Second important tip: no one has used the word 'hip' unironically in a decade. The up-to-date slang is 'en fleek'.​
Thanks for the update! That kind of open and transparent communication is really nice. It's well-appreciated to know in advance.

By the way, if you're still having trouble tomorrow feel free to break open our SECRET rainy-day-when-everyone-feels-down reserve!
 
Tomorrow will be a light and fluffy interlude, something wholesome and sweet and relaxing before we plunge into the whole <music type="death metal">raid the Moon an' drain 'em all! Raar! Murder the evil guys! Waaayooo! Death! Slay! Kill for powah! Sell your soul to the devil, aaaahhh! Rebuild society in your own image, raaargh!</music>(1) arc of the quest.
Sweet, we get backstory on Hidden Moon and a peek into its citizens who are all very pro-Uplift and they're all dead now.
 
Back
Top