Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[roobee]

I presume you're referring to this post? I think I was pretty clear...he's a villain, not a role model, and the people you were talking to had been correct about their assertions. Read back through the previous few pages for details.

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Yeah that post. The biggest informational update wasn't that he was a villain. I had always considered that a possibility before then.
The biggest informational update was that a lot of my specific subpoints during the argument were wrong, and that other people's were right.
Rereading that conversation, I am getting some idea of what Oro beliefs to fix in what direction. Although that was not an easy analysis to do.
And some things are still left unclear. Like which statements count as being about Oro. Or directly related to Oro (a phrasing in one of your later posts).

 

[eaglejarl]

@eaglejarl, a polite request for clarification.

Kagome saved the Arikada bioseals, way back when, because he knew Hazou was going to want to do something insane like learn biosealing, and he wanted some vetted-bioseals for Hazou to learn from.

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He did? Could you remind me of where?

Here, Kagome walks away when Hazou mentions learning bioseals.

Is Kagome's reaction due to the "learning biosealing" part, or the "I can quickly learn to dismantle Orochimaru-the-sannin's bioseal?"

I suspect the latter, but still wish to check for confirmation, given the general state of confusion regarding this last update.

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It's a combination of things. Both of those, and also he's exasperated with the situation and leaving before he loses his cool since he knows this conversation has to happen.

 

[RandomOTP]

We know they can activate some runes. Hazou used one to activate the first explosive rune.

Which tests do you want to run?

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An Earth Clone fires an RER at stationary and moving targets of varying speeds to test their ability to use them effectively in combat

 

[Rafin]

why are we having this conversation now

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Because our family is trying to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks. They are trying to prevent their beloved family member from skydiving without a parachute.

I mean, again, I'm not trying to be salty or something. But "just don't use runes" or whatever is ALSO just suicide, right? And Mari and Kei aren't like, my real life mom and sister having a freak out, they're deathworld mega genuises with blood on their hands who have personally seen the stakes very viscerally already, they should be able to understand this. I just can't pin down the disconnect at this point, I really have no idea what they're thinking.

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Well yeah. Which is why they weren't a crying mess on the floor, or physically restraining us, or spontaneously puking out of stress, or threatening suicide to see how we like it when the turns get tabled on us.

 

[RoadWild]

[X] Action Plan: Dogs of War

 

[faflec]

Chew Noburi out

• What the FUCK was that back there? Are you TRYING to piss off Orochimaru? Next time you feel inclined to speak to him instead DO NOT.
• When we get back to the rest of the team, you WILL explain what you said to Mari and Kei, and they can finish chewing you out.

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I know you will probably ignore this suggestion, but I must offer an alternative, if only to say that I tried.

Noburi:

• Bro, I know you love me, and I know you're stressed, but you cannot go pissing Orochimaru off like that again. We, and you specifically, still need to work with him to fight Akatsuki.
• When we get back to the rest of the team, you need to explain to Mari and Kei what you said so they can figure out what to do.

Grind as much runic veterancy as chakra allows before sleeping. Prioritize anything that can be done in ~4 hours. Force Domes and Ninja-Radar.

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I'm not sure any of the runes we can make can be completely done in 4 hours, as it takes "a few hours" for anything to be made even when timeladdering up, and infusion takes like a hour at minimum. I guess we could make the rune blanks and then infuse later? Not sure if I am understanding correctly here.

(Recovery permitting) attempt to Summon Cannai.

• Use, at most, Mild overcharge.

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Small thing: we should probably tell Cannai before Summoning him. Not sure if it needs to be said, but just putting it out there.

Also, and this suggestion is mostly because we don't know the exact mechanics of overcharge vs. overdraw in the context of the biosealed chakra we just got, but might I suggest we say "Overdraw/overchange only up to a Mild". I know it's extra words, sorry.

 

[RandomOTP]

[Kagome saved the Arikada bioseals]? Could you remind me of where?

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@faflec, I don't suppose you could help me out? I could've sworn this was a thing.

 

[Sir Stompy]

I'm not sure any of the runes we can make can be completely done in 4 hours, as it takes "a few hours" for anything to be made even when timeladdering up, and infusion takes like a hour at minimum. I guess we could make the rune blanks and then infuse later? Not sure if I am understanding correctly here

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Shaping can be completely done in 4 hours and the blanks infused later. The limiting step is primarily time/chakra on shaping, so beginning ASAP is crucial.

Small thing: we should probably tell Cannai before Summoning him. Not sure if it needs to be said, but just putting it out there.

Also, and this suggestion is mostly because we don't know the exact mechanics of overcharge vs. overdraw in the context of the biosealed chakra we just got, but might I suggest we say "Overdraw/overchange only up to a Mild". I know it's extra words, sorry

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Sure we can notify Cannai of our attempt, although we told him yesterday that we'd attempt to Summon him soon. So IDK if it's necessary.

As to your suggested wording I assume you mean overdraw/overcharge, but Hazou cannot do both without taking a Medium. So I am confused. What are you trying to avert/accomplish with the changed wording?

I know you will probably ignore this suggestion, but I must offer an alternative, if only to say that I tried.

Noburi:

• Bro, I know you love me, and I know you're stressed, but you cannot go pissing Orochimaru off like that again. We, and you specifically, still need to work with him to fight Akatsuki.
• When we get back to the rest of the team, you need to explain to Mari and Kei what you said so they can figure out what to do

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I would accept some modifications, but not this much in tone. He done FUCKED UP. And I want Hazou to act like it.

Hazou's characterization has a severe spine deficiency and I intend on rectifying it, starting today.

 

[faflec]

Shaping can be completely done in 4 hours and the blanks infused later. The limiting step is primarily time/chakra on shaping so beginning ASAP is crucial.

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Alright, it might be better to specify that, like saying "prioritize crafting blanks" or something? Because it sounded like you wanted to craft blanks + infuse them.

As to your suggested wording I assume you mean overdraw/overcharge, but Hazou cannot do both without taking a Medium. So I am confused. What are you trying to avert/accomplish with the changed wording.

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Mostly ignorance about whether overdraw over overcharge would be better given how we don't know how the additional chakra coils interact with the mechanics. It could be we can overcharge from both coils but can only overdraw based on our base coils, and overcharging would give us more chakra.

Again, this is something that's not strong for me.

I would accept some modifications, but not this much in tone. He done FUCKED UP. And I want Hazou to act like it.

Hazou's characterization has a severe spine deficiency and I intend on rectifying it, starting today.

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Yeah, I kinda figured. Probably will fork a plan at some point with my suggestion.

 

[Rihaku]

I know you will probably ignore this suggestion, but I must offer an alternative, if only to say that I tried.

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I agree. Regardless of whether it was intentional, Noburi playing Bad Cop took heat off Hazou for making his "unreasonably paranoid" demands. Hazou got to play peacemaker between the warring factions of Noburi and Oro and Noburi got most of Oro's dislike as a consequence.

Punishing Noburi for this feels unfair.

Hazou's characterization has a severe spine deficiency and I intend on rectifying it, starting today.

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While I agree in principle, this latest update has Hazou successfully being firm with both Kei and Oro to reasonable effect. I don't feel Hazou is justified in reaming out Noburi for this, and would not enjoy Hazou's characterization heading in that direction. Especially given the optics of Hazou acting like this immediately post-Oro surgery.

 

[Sir Stompy]

Alright, it might be better to specify that, like saying "prioritize crafting blanks" or something? Because it sounded like you wanted to craft blanks + infuse them

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I do, if time allows. But it's fine if it's too late and Hazou would rather sleep.

Mostly ignorance about whether overdraw over overcharge would be better given how we don't know how the additional chakra coils interact with the mechanics. It could be we can overcharge from both coils but can only overdraw based on our base coils, and overcharging would give us more chakra.

Again, this is something that's not strong for me.

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Ah, there is no situation where overdraw is better than overcharge. Overdraw is 5% and overcharge is 20%, so even if we were allowed to overdraw our biosealed coils and not overcharge our biosealed coils, we would not get more chakra from overdraw than overcharge.

The difference between 20% of 390 and 5% of 627 basically. Overcharge is always better.

 

[faflec]

Ah, there is no situation where overdraw is better than overcharge. Overdraw is 5% and overcharge is 20%, so even if we were allowed to overdraw our biosealed coils and not overcharge our biosealedcoils, we would not get more chakra from overdraw than overcharge.

The difference between 20% of 390 and 5% of 627 basically. Overcharge is always bwtter.

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Ah, never mind. I withdraw my concern.

 

[RandomOTP]

He did? Could you remind me of where?

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I couldn't find the quote (will look later), but Faflec says his offhand recollection is that Kagome initially wanted Arikada's bioseals, and then changed his mind and wanted Ebisu. Jiraiya then forgot to give Kagome either (plot thread forgotten about, mutually, by the playerbase-at-the-time and the QMs).

Though, admittedly, I couldn't find a quote for that, either (how does Faflec do it, I swear?).

Obviously this means Kagome should have the bioseal notes

(I am 75% serious, but also suspect the answer to be "no, Kagome was too paranoid and Jiraiya died too early" or some equivalent)

 

[faflec]

I couldn't find the quote (will look later), but Faflec says his offhand recollection is that Kagome initially wanted Arikada's bioseals, and then changed his mind and wanted Ebisu. Jiraiya then forgot to give Kagome either (plot thread forgotten about, mutually, by the playerbase-at-the-time and the QMs).

Though, admittedly, I couldn't find a quote for that, either (how does Faflec do it, I swear?).

Obviously this means Kagome should have the bioseal notes

(I am 75% serious, but also suspect the answer to be "no, Kagome was too paranoid and Jiraiya died too early" or some equivalent)

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Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted the quotes.

"How about me?" Kagome-sensei demanded, the words awkward and rushed.

"What about you?" Jiraiya asked.

"The kids are getting cool stuff. I want cool stuff."

"Uh...okay," Jiraiya said. "Makes sense. We really should get all of you as powerful as possible, just in case things go sideways. What did you have in mind?"

Kagome-sensei blinked. It was plain as could be that he hadn't considered the question at all. "Um...jutsu, I guess? Or...maybe some of those seals that Arikada had."

Jiraiya's eyebrows ascended like climbers on a mountain. "You want Arikada's stuff? You know she was so batshit crazy that she was doing bioseal research, right?"

"Hey, I can—" Kagome-sensei broke off, head cocked to the side as an idea obviously struck him. "Forget the bioseals. I want Ebisu."

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...
There are times when you really annoy me, Loremaster.

I dunno. Whatever. Jiraiya had a stroke and forgot about it, or Ebisu wasn't available, or he got hit by a truck or something. Point is, he didn't see Kagome/Honoka.

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[RandomOTP]

Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted the quotes.

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As ever, I am horrifically in awe by your search engine fu

 

[ProperAttorney]

Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted the quotes.

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I think there was another time after that where Kagome said he would get the bioseals because he knew that Hazo would eventually go to Oro for that knowledge if he didn't... or something like that.

 

[faflec]

I think there was another time after that where Kagome said he would get the bioseals because he knew that Hazo would eventually go to Oro for that knowledge if he didn't... or something like that.

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I...do not recall this. Could have forgotten, or it was lost in Discord.

EDIT: I do recall Kagome saying we might need bioseals to open the rift with Naruto's help, though.

Kagome shrugged helplessly. "That's the part I haven't figured out. You'd want something that could let someone open their tenketsu extra wide, and that's a bioseal. You'd need a biosealer for that...Snakeface, or his flunky. Arikada, if she's still alive. Maybe Tsunade—she's a medic and she worked alongside Jiraiya-stinker and Snakeface for years. Plus, she's got that bioseal on her forehead. Maybe she put it there, maybe Snakeface put it there back when they were working together, dunno, but if she did it then she might know enough for this. Or maybe she's got a medical ninjutsu that could do it, no bioseal required."

Kagome paused and eyed his student for a moment, checking to see that he was paying attention and not lost in the math. "Even if we could make such a seal, that's not the end of the problems. We'll need to figure out why the Fourth's seal chain gets so weird after number eight, and how to do the rest of them. We'll need to find one that creates a sufficiently durable construct, which probably means we'll need to create tools to measure construct durability. Once we have it we'll need to figure out how to get it aligned precisely enough so that the construct forms inside the rift scar. We'll need to get one of these chakra-emission-enhancement bioseals or jutsu made without losing control of the project to whoever makes it. The Fox would need to be willing to use it, to open its tenketsu so wide that the chakra blasted out like a waterfall. That could be dangerous for it, or at least painful. It might cause damage to the shell's chakra system, and the Fox would need to keep doing it until the rift opened, even if it hurt, and I see no reason why it would want to. Even if we succeeded at all of that and managed to open the rift, I don't know how long it would stay open. Based on what you said about it shrinking, it probably wouldn't last more than a day, two at the most."

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EDIT2: Found the follow-up quote, it was related to Kagome helping Hazou open the rift.

He's your uncle, your teacher, and he knows you're not going to give up on it. Why *wouldn't* he help?

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[_The_Bomb]

There's also the fact that Jiraiya was a biosealer. Seems relevant to add to the pile.

 

[faflec]

There's also the fact that Jiraiya was a biosealer. Seems relevant to add to the pile.

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*looks at Jiraiya's Seal Library*

...That stinker.

 

[Sir Stompy]

There's also the fact that Jiraiya was a biosealer. Seems relevant to add to the pile.

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*looks at Jiraiya's Seal Library*

...That stinker.

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He left his bioseals to Hazoro, Hazou's evil biosealer twin.

 

[_The_Bomb]

*looks at Jiraiya's Seal Library*

...That stinker.

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We don't talk about the Hoard.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

Your family knows perfectly well that Akatsuki is a huge threat and you have doubled/tripled down on beating them and that not beating them is almost certainly going to result in Hazō's death at some point in the mid- to long-term future.

They also firmly believe that having Orochimaru operate on you is going to certainly result in your death in the short-term future.

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Can you roughly time-box short, medium, and long term? E.g., three months, a year, and five years respectively.

The players - this one, at least - are modelling this as if failing to defeat the Akatsuki results in the destruction of the entire world as we know it in six months to a year.

Two other questions: are they weighing Hazo's life vs. the fate of the entire world, or are they mostly focused on Hazo's life and when he might die? And are they chiefly worried about his death, period, or his death and subsequent inclusion in Orochimaru's collection?

The thing that's currently causing me confusion is that even if Orochimaru declared that he was 100% going to kill us after the battle, we'd probably still be taking the seals because this is the fate of the entire world we're talking about and there really doesn't seem to be any other way. I would have expected Kei to grasp this if no one else.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

When we get back to the rest of the team, you WILL explain what you said to Mari and Kei, and they can finish chewing you out.

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So the thing is that they're not going to do this, even a little bit. They're going to commiserate about how scary Orochimaru is and then get mad at us.

What the FUCK was that back there? Are you TRYING to piss off Orochimaru? Next time you feel inclined to speak to him instead DO NOT.

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My suggestion:

We're massively disappointed. Orochimaru's response was entirely predictable. You're supposed to be good at social stuff. What you said was entirely counterproductive and might have *risked your life*. What would we have told Yuno? The next time you see Orochimaru, you will apologize for the outburst and your foolishness. We can help you workshop, but we have a lot of plates spinning and need to know you can keep it together and *think* around Orochimaru going forward. Treat him like a pissed-off Tsunade.

Honestly I think this is going to hit a lot harder - the word 'disappointed' is a killer - although it's longer.

It was pointed out on Discord that this is actually a big moment for Noburi: he fucked up massively and didn't die. We should make him a little killbox to celebrate.

 

[DanZapman]

[ ] Plan Fragment: A Boy Becomes A Man

• We're proud of Nobs in principle. That was badly done but brave.
• We need to have a private conversation.
• MEW up a comically small killbox for nostalgia's sake and tell Noburi to get in.
• Banter a bit. Nobs' become an adult, good job standing up, this is the first step to becoming a baller.
• Do the same pose Jiraiya did when he asked Hazo if there was any reason to let him live.
• "Yeah seriously though man that was stupid you gotta treat Oro like Tsunade before she's had coffee."
• We know Nobs knows how to act around frustrated Essies doing medicine. C'mon.
• Emphasize that it is in fact possible to fuck up severely and still survive okay.
• Suggest that he discuss the possible consequences of his approach with Mari and Kei and figure out what needs handling.

Feedback welcome.

 

[Ishtar]

Frankly I understand the family aren't as based as us GIGABRAINS, and are breaking down under the assumption that it's all already over. But Nobs my man, my brother, you gotta step it up.

"Noburi, the mission does not call for you to play bad-cop, it called for you to play *insert xyz mari said*, the stakes are too high to let our emotions ruin us. If you do not believe yourself capable of this, I understand, and will relieve you of your ability to choose whether or not you shall be present at future interactions with him."

If I were to put forward what I'd say if I couldn't say *xyz mari said*
"a medical professional who operates under my control. "


maybe ask him to, if he can, simply act as if Oro is Tsunade. But he's still an apprentice, or whatever. And every conversation is open heart surgery so if you interject you better HAVE A FUCKING POINT.