- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It does not.
Shadow Imitation is probably the best in a vacuum, but in terms of short-term payoff, probably Shadow Step or Shadow Visage.
You need to cast it every time you want to use it.
No.
See above.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Okay I would just buy Shadow Step then. Seems like the best value, and we already have the buff stunt for it
EDIT: Looks like we could buy up to Shadow Step 28 with the Yam XP. Seems like we should do that.
EDIT: Looks like we could buy up to Shadow Step 28 with the Yam XP. Seems like we should do that.
Last edited:
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
My thoughts are to keep it in lockstep with Substitution. Level it to 25, and keep it there until we need to level it with Substitution.
As for Shadow Imitation supposedly being the best, longterm... I don't really see the point. Kei already has a ranged option, and it's pretty powerful when supplemented by our seals (KISS, Explosives, etc) and her ninjuts (CotWG, looking at you). I'm not sure it's worth it to raise Shadow Imitate using Yamanaka XP, given how long it'll take. And her "real" XP is better spent elsewhere, imo.
There has to be something there that we're not able to see yet.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
It's a special case. It happened because we made a rules change that invalidated her sheet; we weren't going to retroactively punish her, so we simply said it could stay so long as it eventually got straightened out and she didn't raise a new capstone or do anything that would make the situation worse.
Why? It's free XP and none of the other jutsu seem immediately useful. We keep Sub at Ath/2 since that's XP efficient. But this is free XP, no reason to bother with that.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Maybe! But I expect that to be the domain of people like Lee and Gai that monofocus on a single thing to the detriment of everything else.
Ok - since Shadow Step apparently can be cast using the same Supplemental as Substitution, I'm cool with pushing up Shadow Step. Since we don't know exactly how it combines with Substitution, though, it's hard to say how high to level it - but lockstep with Sub seems like a reasonable guess, and pushing it higher might plausibly be a waste.
… On second thought, given that Kei needs more 30s for pyramid support, I'm fine with pushing Shadow Step to 30 (so high as possible now, then to 30 once we get the Yamanaka XP to do it.) We'll raise Sub that high eventually, and I think it's unlikely that having Shadow Step at par with Substitution will turn out to be a waste.
In addition to this, Shadow Imitation presumably rolls to attack, and therefore will benefit from the elemental capped-bonus stunts; which means it may not make sense to have it as capstone Shadow, rather than a technique that doesn't roll. That said, it might have some major Effect-based boost that means it benefits from being at a higher base level, and it might not make sense to level any of the others that high … but regardless, while I can see the utility of an esoteric ninjutsu that lets you control someone else's body, it seems unlikely that it'll be useful without a huge amount of investment.
- Location
- Liverpool
Biggest reason I can think of for shadow imitation is that, if Kei is in close range and movement options have been reduced due to area denial, it's a close range technique (and in fact in canon, the closer to the users shadow the stronger it was). And it's a close range technique that Kei could use to get said opponent back to long range.
What was it Naruto said? It wasn't that high level ninja could do everything amazingly. It was that they had something they were amazing at, and were very good at making you fight against their strengths, while protecting against their weaknesses?
What was it Naruto said? It wasn't that high level ninja could do everything amazingly. It was that they had something they were amazing at, and were very good at making you fight against their strengths, while protecting against their weaknesses?
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Speaking of mechanics, does anyone know if we qualify for Jiraiya's "We Do It Live" sealing style, or Kagome's "Yes, Even the Dances" sealing style? If it carries over to Runecrafting, then we might want to buy Kagome's stunt.
After all, we tend to max out prep days on Runes, anyway, and we've all speculated over the horror that a Runecrafting failure would be. It would provide us an extra safety net, and save us XP when it comes to buying FP.
After all, we tend to max out prep days on Runes, anyway, and we've all speculated over the horror that a Runecrafting failure would be. It would provide us an extra safety net, and save us XP when it comes to buying FP.
- Location
- USA
After looking into this, I've found the following:
- In Chapter 361, the Akimichi Chakra Enhancement was first mentioned on-screen, and Noburi wasn't training it.
- The associated plan indicates that Noburi should try to figure out whether the technique would work for him by consulting with Akimichi or Tsunade.
- Noburi never follows up to confirm whether the technique works on him or that he has started training it on-screen or off-screen that I could find
- (except for this one training plan which is only tallied in an unofficial player tally)
- Later, @Velorien confirms that Noburi has started practicing the technique off-screen.
Unfortunately, I do not think it is reasonable to reward the players for their own mistake in setting the ACE date farther back than it should be and misinforming the QMs about it. Nothing will be done retroactively, but I will be correcting the ACE dates to a narratively plausible time. I would appreciate if anyone could find a more accurate date for when ACE training actually started, so I can set a final answer on this.
In the absence of such a date, my default answer would be to take the midpoint of the two known dates, which in this case would be September 13. If I wanted to go with a narratively-meaningful date around then, the timeline alternately suggests September 1 (after the war with the Hagoromo is concluded and Noburi can entertain more long-term growth options) or October 1 (Noburi is sent on mission to Isan, and therefore has more time now that he's not stuck with his miscellaneous responsibilities in Leaf). Still, I am going to try to be generous and instead pick August 1 (just after the Wakahisa arrive with the koi, prompting Noburi to try to escape the chains of his bloodline) -- implying that Noburi was able to talk with Tsunade and the miscellaneous Akimichi and get the answers he needed in only a week. It's a little fast, but so be it. This sets his ACE refresh date at July 31.
The team's ACE refresh should be anchored on Noburi's, as they only planned to start training it once he'd finished the first cycle, so I'm moving everyone's ACE refresh dates back accordingly, and to avoid having a bookkeeping headache. A possible objection is that ACE isn't really free, since training it conflicts with using the notes lootboxes, and therefore moving the ACE date back would cost the team not only the ACE refresh, but also months of lootbox XP. The thing is, we allowed simultaneous ACE training and lootbox training for several months before we noticed and corrected the issue. This would have happened on November 3, 1070 (date of Chapter 571.4 before this post), so even with me moving the ACE date back, there would still be months in which simultaneous ACE training + lootbox training happened, so there is still zero "wasted time" associated with the delayed ACE start.
Consequently, the next ACE refresh date for the team would be at July 31. Accounting for the use of time-acceleration runes, this means that the team will be able to buy their next copy of ACE on June 24 (assuming no further time acceleration; will be recalculated as needed of course).
I'm sorry if this isn't the answer you were hoping for. This is a hazard of asking the QMs to look into things to see if they are correct: sometimes, the correct answer in the simulation is not the one which maximizes Team Uplift's power.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
FWIW, Kei can still throw kunai using her RW stat while in the Same Zone as an enemy. The Rules doc also says that Kunai are dual-counted as melee weapons and ranged weapons. With Combat Stunts being a thing, and with our many sealing-related buffs, it might be that Kei should pick up MW as a secondary combat stat. This would also preserve her chakra for SC/Summoning strats, rather than having a high-effect combat ninjutsu that would eat into her reserves...
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
That's a good point...
Although, separately, I suppose it all depends on if we want to keep Shadow Imitation as Kei's highest Shadow Element stat. Currently, Kei receives a +6 (up to a max of level 30) from Shadow Imitation's Elemental Apprentice stunt. Raising it up to 24 makes it effective 30, and leaves us with ~24 Yamanaka XP. We could raise Shadow Visage or Shadow Betrayal up to 24 (eff 30) as well, or maybe raise Shadow Imitation up from level 30 to level 31 for free.
As an aside, I might've been memeing earlier, but with all of this ambiguity, I'm genuinely irked at Kei-the-Character for withholding the actual mechanics for these ninjutsu. The Akatsuki are a threat, the Dragons are a threat, and Kei withholding information means that we're liable to make suboptimal choices. I'd be willing to vote for a plan that pushes her to divulge these secrets, in exchange for an oath of secrecy or whatever.
Last edited:
I approve of this idea, though it's likely to be a long-term thing - she's currently only eligible for the chuunin version and she'd need Ath/Alt/RW all at 60 to get the jounin version, which means a bunch more pyramid support and probably pushing RW to a 70-slot. Once she's there, though, she could get MW nearly as good as her RW (before buffs) with only MW 49. Which is also a lot of XP, granted - but I'd be fine with raising MW as pyramid support with an eye to getting there in the long run.
Bear in mind the elemental capped-bonus stunts only apply to rolls with a technique, not their effective level - and since we don't know Shadow Step's mechanics, we don't know whether it would benefit from that.
I'm inclined towards not keeping Shadow Imitation as Kei's Shadow Element capstone for this reason - it probably benefits from the capped-bonus where other Shadow techniques might not. The exception would be if it has some major Effect-dependent boost, like extra range or an Effect-dependent attack bonus or something. (Or if none of the other Shadow techniques make more sense as the capstone, which again is hard to judge.)
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be fair, even the Chuunin version still gives her something like +15 or +16 to Taijutsu and Melee Weapons.
Honestly, yeah. If we make it a longterm goal, I'd be okay with that. Just noticed a handy bit of mechanical synergy (our seals, her combat stats) that could play out well in the long term, provided we take steps.
Yeah, the lack of information makes it hard to engage with Kei's Shadow Element ninjutsu, and to know where they should be slotted into with her build. Some ninjutsu are designed to be low-level supports (see: Pain Suppression or Hoz. Mantle), while others grow ever-powerful the higher you raise them. Without knowing more, we're unlikely to be able to make the right call.
It might be that Shadow Step is like Pain Suppression, and has no mechanical benefit to being raised beyond a certain level, meaning it's just wasted XP.
Maybe we could get Shikamaru to agree to let us see the spec sheets, after we return to Leaf (assuming we do)? Kei won't do it on her own initiative, I think, not when they're Nara clan secrets - but Kei fights with us a lot, and it seems a bit pointless for her to even know Shadow Element if she's not willing to use the techniques alongside us because we might see how they work. We could maybe argue Shikamaru into allowing it. (Like, in general, how does this work? Do Nara ninja just never use any Shadow techniques besides Shadow Imitation where anyone might see them? That seems implausible.)
I do think it's unlikely that Shadow Step has literally no benefit to being levelled beyond where it is - I think Kei would have told us that if that was how it worked. It is possible that the benefits are highly marginal, though, and Kei might not be able to make an accurate judgement without spreadsheet-vision.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I want to poke Kei about it before we return to Leaf. Right now, we're missing nin, and missing nin literally aren't legal people... which means that whatever crimes/treason we commit as a missing nin don't count, since we can't be prosecuted for them once we return to Leaf. We can always just toss a seal or two at the Nara to shut them up, if Shikamaru decides to make something of it.
That said, if Kei is steadfast in her (stupid-if-understandable) secrecy, then we can go tell Shikamaru to tell us. That said, if he Forbids Lore to us one more time, I might genuinely vote to put a surprise Explosive Rune under his estate. Fortunately, if things went by "clan culture standard," then the ninjutsu that Kei learned will have been of the basic-tier, every-born-Nara-learns-this, ninjutsu, rather than the Supreme OP Secret Ninjutsu From God. So Shikamaru shouldn't give us too much pushback.
Is this actually true? Like, sure, we're missing-nin right now. But when we go back to Leaf, the idea is that Naruto backdates orders (and/or reveals his already-existing orders) so that we were never actually missing-nin, we were just on a deep-cover mission. Doesn't that mean we would also retroactively become prosecutable for any unsanctioned treason we committed during that time?
(This is besides the point, since the issue is betrayal of the Nara rather than Leaf and consequences that might fall on Kei and on our relationship with Shikamaru as a result, but I wanted to bring it up.)
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
At this point, if we go back to Leaf, we're going to be covered in enough glory that the only treason will be that committed by those who refuse to observe Goketsu Day.
I think this is a bit optimistic, given that the overall plan provides for the possibility of going back to Leaf to pick up Naruto/Tsunade/genin chakra batteries depending on how things with Orochimaru go.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Eh, as long as don't do anything truly monstrous, we'll be in the clear. Breaking "clan secrets" could easily be waved away when it's under the excuse of optimized training to face the Akatsuki in the Riftwar. Further, the balance of power between the Hokage's authority and the freedom of the Clans means that Naruto would be limited in his power to prosecute this.
My model is that Naruto would be mildly frustrated at the political problem, but that Naruto would ultimately have Hazou's back (again, we're fighting the Akatsuki under his orders, and we did what we had to do) in the face of such a minor thing. And this is assuming Hazou or Kei have to divulge the reveal, rather than simply keeping quiet about it (after all, it's not like we plan on secretly learning Shadow Element or anything truly nefarious, we just wanted to optimize Kei's training for maximum effectiveness against the Akatsuki).
But, if we do have to come clean about it, for whatever reason, then if we are proactive about offering tribute/payment/wergild in the form of some random Hazou Seals, then I could see Naruto leaning on Shikamaru to accept it.
After all, Clan Culture Norms are that ninja who are married into the clan are only taught the "basic" or "beginner" ninjutsu of that clan, rather than the Truly High Opsec ninjutsu. So it's less like we'd be discovering the mechanics behind, say, Shadow Clone, and more like discovering the mechanics behind Fire Bullet.
Again, we're not doing a Big Treason, here. We're not forcing Kei to teach us Shadow Element, or trying to reverse TH a Shadow Ninjutsu. We're just trying to optimize Kei's build for the Huge Threat that Naruto sent us against. It might literally be that Naruto tells Shikamaru to shut up about it, that Shikamaru doesn't even raise a stink, or that Naruto tells us to pay Shikamaru a sum of gold (which, given ES 50, isn't even a real punishment for us).
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If we actually do that (I don't think Orochimaru is going to allow it) we're going to be in and out before you can finish saying 'killbox'.
If we return to Leaf after that we'll be the heroes who killed (some) of the Akatsuki. Treason? I have no idea what you mean, but your sealed orders that Kei was to share the details of Nara jutsu with us were instrumental to our victory over the Akatsuki.
Paper is tracking "We'll Do It Live". We qualify for "Yes, Even The Dances" as Kagome's student.
Shadow Step isn't rolled, so the Elemental Apprentice bonus doesn't apply.
Or I assume it's not rolled anyway. It seems very likely it's not rolled and is a buff.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
In that case, if Sealing Styles carry over to Runecrafting, then we might want to buy "Yes, Even the Dances." It would help us save XP for buying FP during research, and we often do Max Runecrafting Prep Days, anyway. It'd be a nice safeguard against a Runic Failure.
- Location
- Texas
I think this date has already been chosen before that. Here is a message from EJ mid-December that states Nob's ACE would be done in April.
Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games
Discord is great for playing games and chilling with friends, or even building a worldwide community. Customize your own space to talk, play, and hang out.