I don't think we ever will, fwiw. It's been literal years since we got the [jutsu].
One year. (And eight months - but not plural years.)

I think we should spend some of Kei's Yamanaka XP to bring Shadow Step up to 25. We don't have the statblock for Shadow Step, but we know that it "combines natively" with Substitution, for the purposes of boosting Athletics. Lacking any granular details with which to munchkin and optimize (insert: major side eye to Kei), I think that keeping it in lockstep of Substitution is a safe bet.
I think the post above yours quotes why leveling Shadow Step is unappealing. Whatever it does, it isn't as quick to use as Substitution. It might be a Standard to buff Substitution for the next X whatever, but Kei is a RW spec with a bunch of buffs and etc eating into her action economy, particularly the first turn. She can make do with normal Substitution and not being a frontliner until we get more details.
Mostly agree with DanZapman here - I think Shadow Step is more likely to be a non-reflexive Supplemental than a Standard, but that still might not be great. I'd be all for for leveling Shadow Step if only we actually knew what it did.

If we don't find out what Shadow Step does, I think I lean towards Shadow Visage? It's appealing to Kei personally, which is a plus, and Kei thinks it's strong last time we checked. Plus, it's a defensive technique that apparently doesn't suffer as much as Shadow Guardians from buff-stacking issues, which suggests either armour or some more esoteric defence mechanism, which is always good.
 
[X] Training Plan (Kei & Snowflake): Chef's Choice
  • Kei and Snowflake should spend Yamanaka XP on whichever of their Nara jutsu they expect to be the most useful to level
 
SC XP's been added. Note that Hazou has banked and spendable Pangolin XP and likewise for Kei with Yamanaka XP. Do try to spend those when possible.

Wowie, that sure is a very nice amount of chakra Hazō has! Once again, thank you very much Paper for all the work you do to keep tracks of things.



This means we have a crazy 619 CP to use on Summoning Cannai if we use maximum Noburi overdraw. Pretty awesome!
 
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Nov 16, 2024 at 7:35 PM, finished with 102 posts and 8 votes.

Voting is closed, belatedly.

EDIT: Oh, hey, look. The automated tally was running and closed on time, multiple hours ago. Never mind, ignore this one.
 
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We've been putting off leveling combat stats since... The chunin exams? Something like that. There will always be some shiny new thing to level, but not if our chunin combat stats mean we die. Not to the Akatsuki, but to regular chakra beasts or ninja.

Yeah. Anyone want to loop me in on why we care about leveling any combat stats? At all? They're practically worthless right now. Research is the only thing that matters for killing the S rankers. (TH, Minato sealing, Runecrafting) Leveling combat is worthless on that front.

You say chakra beasts or ninja, but what specifically are you thinking about? What's the threat that we'd be unable to handle today, but not be able to with combat stats? We've got a invincible force field for all the chakra beasts (Runic force dome), and can now summon jonin tier summons (or maybe even the boss). That handles basically all ninja that combat stats would help with. Thanks to Chakdar runes we can't get jumped. And if it worse comes to worse, we can just reverse summon and run away!

What's this threat we're so worried about that is gonna be able to beat our invincible force field, our jonin summon, all without using chakra (chakdar), and is so fast that we can't reverse summon away in time, but is still weak enough that the extra jump in combat stats is gonna solve?

Seems we're pretty set on normal threats in the human path, and if we just refuse any combat missions on the 7th path for a while, we're golden.

Seems leveling combat fills more an aesthetic value of having Hazo not be a wimp than any real need. Is there pyramid reasons to do it? What am I missing? Am I wrong?
 
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Yeah. Anyone want to loop me in on why we care about leveling any combat stats? At all? They're practically worthless right now. Research is the only thing that matters for killing the S rankers. (TH, Minato sealing, Runecrafting) Leveling combat is worthless on that front.

You say chakra beasts or ninja, but what specifically are you thinking about? What's the threat that we'd be unable to handle today, but not be able to with combat stats? We've got a invincible force field for all the chakra beasts (Runic force dome), and can now summon jonin tier summons (or maybe even the boss). That handles basically all ninja that combat stats would help with. Thanks to Chakdar runes we can't get jumped. And if it worse comes to worse, we can just reverse summon and run away!

What's this threat we're so worried about that is gonna be able to beat our invincible force field, our jonin summon, all without using chakra (chakdar), and is so fast that we can't reverse summon away in time, but is still weak enough that the extra jump in combat stats is gonna solve?

Seems we're pretty set on normal threats in the human path, and if we just refuse any combat missions on the 7th path for a while, we're golden.

Seems leveling combat fills more an aesthetic value of having Hazo not be a wimp than any real need. Is there pyramid reasons to do it? What am I missing? Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong.

We need to continually unstagnate combat to continue to grow our skills, including research. That means taking one on-level combat every 1000 XP. Hazou's combat stats are so bad right now that he is a liability at the level the rest of the team needs to fight at to unstagnate. We could get a different team I guess? Seems like a complete pain in the ass... no interest here.

Furthermore, none of your suggested strategies are workable without prep time or access to Noburi (we don't even have any jounin summons lol), prep time and access that is not necessarily available before we fight.

You're also neglecting the fact that Hazou is expected by both the Hokage and the Dog Boss to take combat missions from time-to-time. We literally cannot ignore this. We will be ordered into combat sooner-or-later. That is ninja life and we have done an admirable amount of avoiding it so far, but it can't continue forever.
 
Okay, so we plan on having Hazou learn Lightning Element in the mid-term future (barring unforeseen circumstances).

The current rules are thus...

Narratively, learning a new chakra affinity is very difficult. It needs a good teacher who knows the element, and a lot of disciplined study where you meditate to get a feel for the new element, and attempt, over and over, to execute a small handful of its jutsu until you finally make it work.

Mechanically:
  1. You must find a teacher who has the element. This generally isn't hard if you live in a ninja village.
  2. You need to find one or more jutsu of the element. Typically the teacher will supply these.
  3. You need to put in 30 days of training over the course of 90 calendar days. Narratively, it's assumed that you've been doing a lot of work in advance.
  4. Each day of training is 4 hours. More doesn't help, less doesn't count.
  5. Over the course of your training you spend 1000 XP, 30 XP per day with the balance due on the last day.
  6. If you do not complete your 30 days within the 90 day window then your XP investment is lost and you need to start over. You weren't studious enough and the basics got mushy, chakra is weird, blah blah blah, whatever, it's a balance thing.
  7. As soon as you complete the training you get 500 XP back, which must be immediately spent on one or more jutsu of the relevant element. (The ones you were studying.) Any that are not immediately spent are lost. In-universe this sudden acquisition of levels is justified as "you've spent so long learning the jutsu that you know it inside out, and now you are actually able to power it."

So we've been told that most ninja that live to chunnin typically pick up a second element to shore up their weaknesses (see: Asuma's conversation with Akane). The average ninja also earns ~3xp/day. So, assuming that a chunnin of average XP rate sits down for 30 days, and does nothing but learn an element, then they'll have... only accrued 90 of the 1000xp required to learn a new element. A ninja would need to earn 33xp/day to earn the requisite 1000xp in 30 days.

Even if we extend the "30 days" out to "90 days," then it still means that a ninja would have to earn ~11xp/day, which we've been told is impossible for anyone to earn, let alone your average chunnin.

So... where does the rest of the XP come from? You're not allowed to bank XP to retroactively powerlevel stats like Runecrafting, so why would this apply to learning a new Element? Is it part of the "it's assumed that you've been doing a lot of work in advance?" What does that even look like? If you can get most of the way to learning a new element without a tutor (or Jiraiya's instructions), then why do you need a tutor to finish up the last month of education?

I know that "elemental rules are borked" is a meme, and that the seam where the narrative simulation meets the mechanical underpinning is always going to mesh awkwardly, but this is genuinely confusing. Is the answer to this really as simple as "yeah, elemental rules are borked, put them out of your mind for now?"
 
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Yeah. Anyone want to loop me in on why we care about leveling any combat stats? At all? They're practically worthless right now. Research is the only thing that matters for killing the S rankers. (TH, Minato sealing, Runecrafting) Leveling combat is worthless on that front.

You say chakra beasts or ninja, but what specifically are you thinking about? What's the threat that we'd be unable to handle today, but not be able to with combat stats? We've got a invincible force field for all the chakra beasts (Runic force dome), and can now summon jonin tier summons (or maybe even the boss). That handles basically all ninja that combat stats would help with. Thanks to Chakdar runes we can't get jumped. And if it worse comes to worse, we can just reverse summon and run away!

What's this threat we're so worried about that is gonna be able to beat our invincible force field, our jonin summon, all without using chakra (chakdar), and is so fast that we can't reverse summon away in time, but is still weak enough that the extra jump in combat stats is gonna solve?

Seems we're pretty set on normal threats in the human path, and if we just refuse any combat missions on the 7th path for a while, we're golden.

Seems leveling combat fills more an aesthetic value of having Hazo not be a wimp than any real need. Is there pyramid reasons to do it? What am I missing? Am I wrong?
To be clear: you used to be correct. Optimistic, but correct.
However there was a rules change establishing "stagnation", requiring regular challenges in your main skillsets to maintain a normal XP rate. Ninja culture and basic training gives everyone "combat" as a main skillset, so we need regular challenging fights to maintain XP growth.
And of course there's the fact that we have a Kage who can order us to do dangerous things. And let's not forget the fact that we're the world's most wanted missing-nin, with legions of hunters on our trail ! Everyone would feel a lot safer if we could casually slaughter a chunin squad without needing a ton of setup beforehand.
 
Furthermore, none of your suggested strategies are workable without prep time or access to Noburi, prep time and access that is not necessarily available before we fight.
There is no fight we're gonna get into in the near future (a year) that we won't know ahead of time that we're gonna get into a fight.
You're also neglecting the fact that Hazou is expected by both the Hokage and the Dog Boss to take combat missions from time-to-time. We literally cannot ignore this. We will be ordered into combat sooner-or-later.
Meh. The Dog boss okaying us focusing on the Akatsuki makes this a mute point. And if we're summoned to combat after we've already beat Akatsuki it doesn't really matter at that point.


We need to continually unstagnate combat to continue to grow our skills, including research. That means taking one on-level combat every 1000 XP. Hazou's combat stats are so bad right now that he is a liability at the level the rest of the team needs to fight at to unstagnate. We could get a different team I guess? Seems like a complete pain in the ass... no interest here.
Didn't think of that. Yeah. Unstagnation is a thing. Thanks!


So mainly, we're leveling combat because we're gonna need to keep unstagnating the combat stagnation for xp reasons and not really because its gonna help us in any actual combat that's necessary for us to face soon?
 
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However there was a rules change establishing "stagnation", requiring regular challenges in your main skillsets to maintain a normal XP rate. Ninja culture and basic training gives everyone "combat" as a main skillset, so we need regular challenging fights to maintain XP growth.
Yeah it was pointed out. Already realized I was wrong. Forgot about stagnation. Thanks tho.
 
So mainly, we're leveling combat because we're gonna need to keep unstagnating the combat stagnation for xp reasons and not really because its gonna help us in any actual combat that's necessary for us to face soon?
I don't care why people are voting to raise combat stats, I'm just glad that they finally are. Some of us have been trying to get that ball rolling for literal years :V
 
So... where does the rest of the XP come from? You're not allowed to bank XP to retroactively powerlevel stats like Runecrafting, so why would this apply to learning a new Element? Is it part of the "it's assumed that you've been doing a lot of work in advance?" What does that even look like? If you can get most of the way to learning a new element without a tutor (or Jiraiya's instructions), then why do you need a tutor to finish up the last month of education?
RAW I'm pretty sure you are it's just that every time we do Paper asks us nicely not to and we agree. In this case, safe to assume they just bank the XP in advance. Fluff it out as meditation training in preparation for learning a new Element
 
Yeah. Anyone want to loop me in on why we care about leveling any combat stats? At all? They're practically worthless right now. Research is the only thing that matters for killing the S rankers. (TH, Minato sealing, Runecrafting) Leveling combat is worthless on that front.

You say chakra beasts or ninja, but what specifically are you thinking about? What's the threat that we'd be unable to handle today, but not be able to with combat stats? We've got a invincible force field for all the chakra beasts (Runic force dome), and can now summon jonin tier summons (or maybe even the boss). That handles basically all ninja that combat stats would help with. Thanks to Chakdar runes we can't get jumped. And if it worse comes to worse, we can just reverse summon and run away!

What's this threat we're so worried about that is gonna be able to beat our invincible force field, our jonin summon, all without using chakra (chakdar), and is so fast that we can't reverse summon away in time, but is still weak enough that the extra jump in combat stats is gonna solve?

Seems we're pretty set on normal threats in the human path, and if we just refuse any combat missions on the 7th path for a while, we're golden.

Seems leveling combat fills more an aesthetic value of having Hazo not be a wimp than any real need. Is there pyramid reasons to do it? What am I missing? Am I wrong?
It mostly comes down to four things, as I understand it:
  1. We need to regularly unstagnate our Combat domain if we want to keep our XP rate, which is important even for our research stats. Unstagnations require higher combat stats for two reasons:
    • For any given unstagnation, the difficulty we need to clear is based on what our stats used to be at the last unstagnation, not what they currently are. A steady growth of combat stats means we always have a comfortable margin of advantage against the difficulty target we need to hit.
    • A well-rounded build is more likely to survive in general. As it stands we can do some pretty neat things but we have to dance around the problem where any major attack aimed at Hazou will hit and do massive damage. Bringing our base stats up to snuff means Hazou can't get mulched as easily, gives us more room to work around our foes.
  2. There are things we don't do because we don't trust Hazou in a fight. I don't have many good examples of this, perhaps because we're long practiced at this point at taking different kinds of strategies, but I can think of two costs in recent memory: we had to flee the beyond-the-map wilderness because the chuunin of Team Uplift were too frail to expect to stay alive long-term, and there's not even a chance that Hazou's going to personally participate in the final battle against the Akatsuki.
  3. Sometimes fate forces our hand. The Fourfold Seal of Protection sealing failure comes to mind, where our unwavering commitment to rescue our clanmate caused us to dive into fights we didn't know were safe. We took a Severe there, almost died, as a result of it. You may ask "what are the odds something exactly like that happens again?", but while history doesn't repeat itself it does tend to rhyme. If we want to survive in the long-term we do need to plan on the expectation that we will be forced into fights we didn't pre-select to be safe.
  4. In ninjaland it turns out nobody respects you if you can't punch their face in. It's dumb, but true. We're developing into a major geopolitical player here and it'd be really nice if we had Jounin-level street cred so we didn't have to start every conversation with a metaphorical "okay I know that I don't look like much, but..."
And, I should stress, the reason we're talking about this at all is in anticipation of a relatively favourable outcome against Akatsuki. Once we're no longer racing them for the rift, once the dust has settled and our weapons have done their work, it actually becomes an open question how much we need more research skill. I can see some routes where it's important for rift-delving, but just as easily I can see routes where we have essentially everything we need and can afford to divert our XP into "don't die" stats.

We had to lock in on research mode, to the exclusion of all else, because timers were ticking down to doomsday and victory directly hinged on whether we could research fast enough to win. If we handle the Akatsuki here the only major timers left are retrieving Jiraiya and Akane before it's too late (which may or may not require much research investment) and the overall degradation of the Great Seal (which is long-term enough that having the stats to stay alive that long becomes part of the process). In a dozen chapters we might finally, finally be free of this vice-grip of time pressure where the Sonic drowning music is blaring in our ears 24/7 because if we aren't researchmaxxing 130% of the time we auto-lose. Once we're free of immediate concerns we can finally turn our attention to the stuff we left on the wayside in the process. I'm not personally married to the combat grind, I'm in a "wait and see how the fate-of-the-world showdown turns out" position first and foremost, but I can definitely see the value in it for our mid-to-long-term goals.
 
So we've been told that most ninja that live to chunnin typically pick up a second element to shore up their weaknesses (see: Asuma's conversation with Akane). The average ninja also earns ~3xp/day. So, assuming that a chunnin of average XP rate sits down for 30 days, and does nothing but learn an element, then they'll have... only accrued 90 of the 1000xp required to learn a new element. A ninja would need to earn 33xp/day to earn the requisite 1000xp in 30 days.

Even if we extend the "30 days" out to "90 days," then it still means that a ninja would have to earn ~11xp/day, which we've been told is impossible for anyone to earn, let alone your average chunnin.

So... where does the rest of the XP come from?
It comes from nowhere and I suggest that we should gather together and request that the QMs either discount elements to 250 XP (or lower tbh, 250 XP in 30 days is still ridiculously high for an average chunin with maybe 3 or 4 XP a day if we assume that the 2 XP/day overall average ninja got filtered out) or retroactively delete all elements any NPC wasn't born with if they can't provide us a build plan where that NPC managed to obtain 1,000 XP in 30 days every time they bought an element. Yes, especially Akatsuki and the Sannin and Essies in general. Yes, even if it means nerfing Mari.

edit for clarity: the latter was meant to be tongue-in-cheek hyperbole to highlight the dysfunctionality of elements costing 1000 XP and having to pay that much in 30 days, not a serious manifestation of salt. the logical result of that second option is that basically no one ever gets a second element, which is a problem that could be corrected a couple ways.
 
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It comes from nowhere and I suggest that we should gather together and request that the QMs either discount elements to 250 XP (or lower tbh, 250 XP in 30 days is still ridiculously high for an average chunin with maybe 3 or 4 XP a day if we assume that the 2 XP/day overall average ninja got filtered out) or retroactively delete all elements any NPC wasn't born with if they can't provide us a build plan where that NPC managed to obtain 1,000 XP in 30 days every time they bought an element. Yes, especially Akatsuki and the Sannin and Essies in general. Yes, even if it means nerfing Mari.
I'm down for the first part (where we ask the QMs to revisit the Elemental Rules). I'd even be willing to vote in Interludes while they discuss it. We plan on having Hazou learn a new element in the short-to-mid term, so having this ironed out in advance of that would be really helpful.
 
It mostly comes down to four things, as I understand it:
  1. We need to regularly unstagnate our Combat domain if we want to keep our XP rate, which is important even for our research stats. Unstagnations require higher combat stats for two reasons:
    • For any given unstagnation, the difficulty we need to clear is based on what our stats used to be at the last unstagnation, not what they currently are. A steady growth of combat stats means we always have a comfortable margin of advantage against the difficulty target we need to hit.
    • A well-rounded build is more likely to survive in general. As it stands we can do some pretty neat things but we have to dance around the problem where any major attack aimed at Hazou will hit and do massive damage. Bringing our base stats up to snuff means Hazou can't get mulched as easily, gives us more room to work around our foes.
  2. There are things we don't do because we don't trust Hazou in a fight. I don't have many good examples of this, perhaps because we're long practiced at this point at taking different kinds of strategies, but I can think of two costs in recent memory: we had to flee the beyond-the-map wilderness because the chuunin of Team Uplift were too frail to expect to stay alive long-term, and there's not even a chance that Hazou's going to personally participate in the final battle against the Akatsuki.
  3. Sometimes fate forces our hand. The Fourfold Seal of Protection sealing failure comes to mind, where our unwavering commitment to rescue our clanmate caused us to dive into fights we didn't know were safe. We took a Severe there, almost died, as a result of it. You may ask "what are the odds something exactly like that happens again?", but while history doesn't repeat itself it does tend to rhyme. If we want to survive in the long-term we do need to plan on the expectation that we will be forced into fights we didn't pre-select to be safe.
  4. In ninjaland it turns out nobody respects you if you can't punch their face in. It's dumb, but true. We're developing into a major geopolitical player here and it'd be really nice if we had Jounin-level street cred so we didn't have to start every conversation with a metaphorical "okay I know that I don't look like much, but..."
And, I should stress, the reason we're talking about this at all is in anticipation of a relatively favourable outcome against Akatsuki. Once we're no longer racing them for the rift, once the dust has settled and our weapons have done their work, it actually becomes an open question how much we need more research skill. I can see some routes where it's important for rift-delving, but just as easily I can see routes where we have essentially everything we need and can afford to divert our XP into "don't die" stats.

We had to lock in on research mode, to the exclusion of all else, because timers were ticking down to doomsday and victory directly hinged on whether we could research fast enough to win. If we handle the Akatsuki here the only major timers left are retrieving Jiraiya and Akane before it's too late (which may or may not require much research investment) and the overall degradation of the Great Seal (which is long-term enough that having the stats to stay alive that long becomes part of the process). In a dozen chapters we might finally, finally be free of this vice-grip of time pressure where the Sonic drowning music is blaring in our ears 24/7 because if we aren't researchmaxxing 130% of the time we auto-lose. Once we're free of immediate concerns we can finally turn our attention to the stuff we left on the wayside in the process. I'm not personally married to the combat grind, I'm in a "wait and see how the fate-of-the-world showdown turns out" position first and foremost, but I can definitely see the value in it for our mid-to-long-term goals.
Appreciate the effort-post. Good insightful post. Mainly I just forgot stagnation was a thing. (whoops, lol)
 
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