[X][Conclave] Clear Communication

Why not. I doubt something really bad is going to happen.

The deal was not made in good faith.
  • The Pangolins offered you jutsu, contracts, and money. They received utter military dominance.
  • Bargaining is inherently competitive but the Pangolins took advantage of Kei's inexperience and your lack of context to a degree incompatible with cooperation.


Goal is to make a decision whether or not to supply the Pangolins with Skytowers (knowing their intended purpose).
Get reads on the political situation from Mari-sensei & Jiraiya (esp. the latter).

We did vote to help the Pangolin and hopefully gain some political power (and loot the other Clans):
If decision is yes, discuss plans for getting compensation.
  • Determine value of compensation before making decision (so we aren't getting screwed over again).
  • Ensure that, since our seals are majorly responsible for the "Pangolin Empire" we should get significant compensation, moreso than what we've gotten before.
  • New Pangolin contracts (e.g., Awareness/Stealth, as below).
  • Jutsu from defeated enemy clans.
  • Free access to the Pangolin jutsu library for the Goketsu (and Nara?) clans (though not redistribution to Leaf/Toads) + right to hack.
    • Basic conditioning jutsu?
  • Some non-negligible percentage of the wealth plundered from enemy clans.
  • A whole bunch of permanent contracts with military pangolins of a decent level.
  • Sufficient Pantsā-backed political power in pangolin society that we can completely protect Kei's position from further demmands and maybe even get them to ease off a little on the Pangolin's Reich Technique.

Jiraiya was ok with all of that and thought Pantsa was dealing in good faith with us.

*shrug* I guess we didn't get any political power.
 
My only contribution is that if we are to resurrect Pain, we shelter the rift with a building in the shape of a donkey, so that Pain stops being a Pain in the ass once he leaves.
I'll see myself out.
 
Multiple genocides yeah, but also any possible future crimes.
Oh, the Tama know how to make mega implosion seals? Genocide.
The Hozuki have a jutsu to cause endless rain? Genocide.
etc etc.

When you are able to justify such acts to yourself by saying that these people could use these abilities in dangerous ways, where do you stop? Once you have the power and will to effortlessly annihilate cities for the "Greater Good", doesn't that make you the greater threat to civilization?

Okay, I get where you're coming from, but also this is like saying that Light "kills hundreds of people almost as soon as he realises he can" Yagami went down a slippery slope. It's more like buying a pair of skis so you can get down it even faster.

And then getting impatient with how slow the skis are and setting off an explosion to cause an avalanche.
 
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Okay, I get where you're coming from, but also this is like saying that Light "kills hundreds of people almost as soon as he realises he can" Yagami went down a slippery slope. It's more like buying a pair of skis so you can get down it even faster.

And then getting impatient with how slow the skis are and setting off an explosion to cause an avalanche.
Mmm, sort of. To go with the Light analogy, it would be like saying Light is on a slippery slope when he plans to kill the first murderer with the Death Note, or when considering who Light will target next after the mass murderers and warlords of the world are all dead.
 
[X][Conclave] Clear Communication
[X][Isan] Action Plan: Frank Consideration

EM nukes turn hundreds of square miles into total frozen death and kill anything the uses biology to live, presumably including clan bosses. I imagine this would be at the forefont of almost every story. I don't think it would be ignored as "just crazy weather

12 mile diameter is 113 square miles technically. However, EJ stated that the original EM nuke was too powerful, and that the later ones will be smaller. So let's say ~80 sq mi.

Em nukes are not visible from even 100 miles away, so any information getting out would need to be surviving Bosses spreading the word to other clans. I just don't see them blabbing like that. Interclan communication is pretty slow.

Any word that does get out is going to be garbled beyond recognition IMO.
 
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Asuma handed the sheaf over. "These are the research notes for a particularly strong barrier seal, called the Fourfold Seal of Preservation. It's an attempt at recreating the the Fourfold Violet Flame Barrier, which, if you've heard of it, can withstand even Kage-level attacks of most kinds–though the seal version has certain limitations the ninjutsu doesn't. The last sealmaster capable of making this died in the battle at Nagi Island, and most of our reserves of the seal were destroyed in the Collapse. They're quite useful, and I should mention that a noteworthy perk of missions for sealmasters is that you get to benefit from the seals that you research."

Hazō flipped through the papers. They contained research notes in an unfamiliar handwriting and what looked like a number of blanks. "Thank you very much, sir. I will look into it. If that's all…?"
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien @faflec
There has been discussion amongst the players on when to research this seal, with at least a few of us being interested in researching it right away. Before we make a decision, it would be extremely helpful if you would clarify (1) how having these research notes affects our research, and (2) what the seal actually does.

Research Notes
A rules issue has arisen. While Hazō benefits from the 2/3 discount towards researching the skywalker seal thanks to the original creator's assistance, that's a research discount—it doesn't apply to using the seal once he knows it. In other words, Hazō will use the same infusion TN as Kagome, which is effectively impossible for him to beat. (The alternative would be that he infuses the seal three times as easily as its original creator.)
In the past, having the original creator's assistance lowered a seal's Infusion TN to 1/3 of its original value. Having the original creator's research note was similarly helpful, though not to the same extent.

Nowadays, it's a little less clear. Would you mind clarifying the effect of the following? The information will be extremely helpful for determining the research priority of seals from Jiraiya's Hoard and Konoha missions like the one Asuma just assigned, not to mention whether or not we should attempt to collaborate with Leaf's other sealmasters to a greater extent.

Specifically, it would be helpful to know the research discount (and any other effects such as if it reveals the difficulty-level of a seal, for example) we get from:
  • having the original creator of a seal teach it to us
  • having the original creator's research notes on the seal
  • having someone (not the original creator) who knows the seal teach it to us
  • having someone's (not the original creator) research notes on the seal
  • having infused copies of the seal
  • having blanks of the seal
Seal Mechanics
Similarly, it would make it substantially easier to decide our research priorities if we had a better picture of what some seals actually do. It some situations (such as when we are inventing a novel seal or reverse engineering one acquired from an enemy) it makes complete sense for Hazō to only learn the seal mechanics upon completing research and testing on it, but most of the time he should have a pretty good idea of what it does. Take the seal Asuma just assumed to us as research, for example. If the Tower knows what the seal does, wouldn't that information be shared with Hazō during his mission?

What exactly does it take to unlock the mechanics of a seal? Would any of the following be enough:
  • having a sealmaster who can make the seal inform us
  • having someone who uses the seal inform us
  • having a copy (or copies) of the infused seal
  • having the complete research notes from a sealmaster who can make the seal
We completely understand if you don't have the mechanics nailed down yet. Honestly, even having proto-mechanics or a brief description of what the intended mechanics will look like would be an enormous help. What would it take for Hazō to have access to that information?
 
This cycle hasn't happened yet, they're just being courteous and letting us know ahead of time. We're only voting on the Conclave right now, as voting is closed for "the present."

Thanks! can you also explain the general form of "when do chapters come out, and when does voting for each chapter begin/end?"
EDIT: I'm now un-confused, thanks
 
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@y'all what's the posting/voting schedule? When does each post's voting close out?

@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien should we be voting just on "nuke Isan: Y/n" related plans right now, or also on action plans for what to do after this meeting?

This cycle hasn't happened yet, they're just being courteous and letting us know ahead of time. We're only voting on the Conclave right now, as voting is closed for "the present."
Please vote in a plan for the EM Council, and only for the EM Council.
 
"Hah! Research Facility Seventeen is an urban legend. Doesn't mean anyone's ever come back from exploring the Hokorobi Rift."

A massive rift in space opened directly beneath him and dropped Hazō out of reality.

Something unfolded in the air next to the clone, a sheet of what looked like dark yet shimmering metal

For some reason, Hazō's mind offered up the image of one of his scarier sealing failures, when through the rift that was not a rift he briefly glimpsed a creature with too few limbs and too many dimensions, and realised that he was probably still alive only because its senses were the wrong senses for the substances he was made of.

The first was a handspan crack that meandered ten feet on a generally north/south route. Purple-grey tentacles, or perhaps hairy roots, were growing through it and groping around for anything nearby.

The second rift was larger, an amorphous tear large enough for a person to crawl through. It was inky black, a pulsing opalescent sheen around the edges, and emitted keening screams that wandered up and down the register of human hearing and probably beyond.

The last rift was perhaps the most terrifying. It was roughly oval, eight feet high and five feet wide, and on the other side was a beach.

We were talking in the Discord about possible rift scars to use as a test for the necromancy rift scar enlarger. The quote above are the only ones I found, feel free to let me know if you find any others.

Unrelated, I found this little passage of one of Hazo's Out episodes. Apparently the "true name" of Jashin is "The Slayer". I didn't see any mention of this anywhere, thought it was interesting especially with Kagome's claim that Jashin is the Death Summoner and Panda saying that summoning Death in the Seventh Path is forbidden by one of the decrees laid down by the Sage.

The Hazō's vision orbs turned away from the Disicple of the Slayer, turned back to those carmine globes that could incinerate flesh with a moment's thought. The globes were distant, pale, powerless with their wearer's will to act scattered.

"Right. Where was I? Oh, there's Hidan the Blood Reaper. Everyone's heard of him. Deadliest scythe-wielder in the world."

"How many scythe-wielders are there in the world?" Hazō asked.

"He's the only one I know of."

"Right. And what's he the summoner of?"

"Death," Kagome said simply. "Nobody knows what he had to do to get the Death summoning scroll, because he hunted down and killed everyone who knew. When he summons Death, he becomes completely unkillable, and every wound he deals is fatal, even if he just nicks you. He's head of a vast secret cult, and everyone in it worships him as the avatar of Death itself.

"Nevertheless, it is a relief that Kagome's ramblings appear to be just that. I take it that the same applies to the bewildering idea of summoning Death?"

Pandā went very still.

"Death isn't a summon the way I'm a summon. Death is… something else," he said in a hushed voice.

"Come now." Kei's patience had been bolstered by Pandā's extensive knowledge of the crows, and at least that had already been confirmed by Jiraiya to be Uchiha Itachi's summon. But there were limits.

"How can a theoretical abstraction of the process by which living organisms cease to function be summonable? At least a Fire elemental summon is intuitively comprehensible, even if that intuition does not match reality."

"Dunno," Pandā said. "But summoning Death is one of the things summoners are forbidden to do on the Seventh Path, like making seals."

And of course, there was no way of distinguishing prohibitions laid down for good and sane reasons from meaningless superstition, just as with many of the "essential" sealcrafting procedures Kagome insisted on during research. (Kei refused on principle to believe in the efficacy of the "Please Don't Let This Seal Draw the Attention of the Nameless Hunger that Dwells in the Gaps between Minds" Dance.)
 
We were talking in the Discord about possible rift scars to use as a test for the necromancy rift scar enlarger. The quote above are the only ones I found, feel free to let me know if you find any others.

Unrelated, I found this little passage of one of Hazo's Out episodes. Apparently the "true name" of Jashin is "The Slayer". I didn't see any mention of this anywhere, thought it was interesting especially with Kagome's claim that Jashin is the Death Summoner and Panda saying that summoning Death in the Seventh Path is forbidden by one of the decrees laid down by the Sage.
There's also some info about Death from a conversation with Enma we had a while back. One of Isan's traditional stories also implied that Death and The King of Hell were the same person.

You should be able to find quotes for these in my threadmarked info-post on lore leads, though it's possible I haven't added these yet.
 
There's also some info about Death from a conversation with Enma we had a while back. One of Isan's traditional stories also implied that Death and The King of Hell were the same person.

You should be able to find quotes for these in my threadmarked info-post on lore leads, though it's possible I haven't added these yet.
Yuno always coming in with the chilling Lore of Isan. Think of how much we still haven't learned. All that Lore, potentially wiped away by Asuma.
 
Annexing Isan is not an option, as we discussed earlier in the thread. We have no way to convince them that doesn't spoil EM nukes, which would just cause them to develop their own EM nukes and defeat the purpose.

We cannot militarily compel them to be annexed because of AMITY, Isan is a signatory.

As to the second idea, it is absurdly impractical.
1) Yamanaka almost certainly can't do psychic surgery that delicately.
2) If they can, only 2-3 people in their clan can do it at all
3) How are you going to convince all 500 Isanese to undergo psychic surgery without militarily compelling them or spoiling the secret of EM? No amount of "shinies" would ever convince anyone to put their entire country in someone else's power like that.

Subverting Isan to peacefully ensure EM's erasure from their technique libraries and brains would be a months long (at least, if not longer) process utilizing Leaf's soft power, not military might, to effectively if not someday outright annex Isan.

Isan as a highly isolationist polity can be outmaneuvered by Leaf so that Leaf effectively acts as Isan's chaperone when it comes to Isan's dealings with the world stage. Leaf can offer Isan better deals than any other nation attempting to set up trade with Isan so that Leaf monopolizes the main motives Isan would have for coming out of their shell: higher qualities of living and/or new techniques. By coordinating with Asuma to best utilize our new gem making capabilities we can outbid anyone else trying to approach Isan for trade. Every industry or commodity that they could possibly want and get offers from another country we can out compete by subsidizing the loses of the trade itself with our economy breaking gem productions.

While this is going on the Yamanaka, if any are capable of doing this psychic surgery (which I admit is a very big 'IF' so we need to check with Asuma and then Ino if the Yamanaka can deliver on this idea), can start removing EM (and memories of their abductions if such measures are necessary) from adventurous Isan ninja who try to break past Leaf's "benevolent" trade blockade to explore the wider world after ANBU pick those adventurers up.

Psychic surgery of people in Isan would be part of a wider health check up performed over all of Isan's people so that the Yamanaka do not stand out. Just as Noburi cured cleft lips Leaf's medical personnel would be able to drastically and more importantly indisputably improve the Isan people's quality of life. The soft power here is that those who acquiesce to our demands see improvements over those who stubbornly refuse Leaf's offers of help. As long as Isan remains isolated to the outside greater international community it will not matter how long it takes to scrub EM from their collective consciousness since Isan's people are all bunched up together: if someone in Isan does manage to make an EM nuke all they will have done is wiped their home off the map themselves.

10,000+ man hours spent on erasing EM from Isan peacefully is worth it from a humanitarian and utilitarian perspective alone: all of those lives saved would be worth the time, effort, and money spent. Furthermore we would not be wasting the potential manpower a cooperative Isan could offer to Leaf in the future.

If the Yamanaka cannot erase data from people's minds then the process of eliminating EM from people's memories would take decades as we position better techniques to take EM's place in Isan's culture. Whether or not either of these would be workable timetables would be up to Asuma after the EM council runs the numbers.

Yeah no, Takahashi isn't handing over control of his famously isolationist village on Asuma's word. No one would do that. You would literally have to have been born yesterday to do that.

Takahashi can stay as the petty lord of only Isan so he can rule only Isan as he sees fit while we slowly make the populace more accepting of and willing to join Leaf voluntarily. The proclamation until then would be that Asuma and Leaf would have authority on everything and everyone that leaves or wants to enter Isan's explicit borders as long as those travelers are outside of Isan's borders. Asuma will have that authority in practice not because of outright military aggression but because no one else can afford to out compete Leaf's unofficial yet state endorsed Isan trade monopoly.

If AMITY is successful nations will begin to compete primarily with one another through trade rather than overt or covert violence. Securing a new trade partner early on aggressively like this might raise some eyebrows from the international community but it won't trigger a war unlike nuking Isan outright most likely would given that we almost assuredly need EM nukes against the dragons.
 
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped

Ive got three questions.

First, I'd like to know if Hazou is aware of any further research Kagome did on the Isan sealing theory notes he got from Yoshida?

I'd also like to know if there has been any recent messages from Yoshida Tsukiko to Kagome and if he is still interested in responding to her.

Thanks.
 
[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle
Word Count: 242
  • Hazou will set aside the ethical and moral implications of visiting death upon a village of people whose crime they are not even aware of, and look upon the situation rationally.
  • Even so, Hazou is generally opposed to destroying Isan with Elemental Mastery based on his current awareness of the situation.
    • Hazou is not stubborn and is willing to change his viewpoint, but is not convinced that destroying Isan is necessary at this point in time.
  • The facts as Hazou knows them:
    • Isan has agreed to trade Fire ninjutsu exclusively with Leaf, and there is a replacement for Elemental Mastery, which presumably is being traded with Isan. Both these things indicate that spread of Elemental Mastery is controlled.
    • Isan-nin with knowledge of Elemental Mastery may not be present in Isan during its destruction. These survivors represent a risk of EM proliferation.
    • Isan-nin may have undiscovered technique caches containing Elemental Mastery, and destroying Isan would make it impossible to locate them save by pure chance. These caches represent a risk of EM proliferation.
    • Other concerns not strictly related to Elemental Mastery-related Armageddon:
      • Using EM Nuke now will implicate us if we reuse it in the Dragonwar.
      • Isan is in possession of lore dating back hundreds of years, and which may be relevant to the Dragonwar.
      • AMITY destroying Leaf in retaliation.
      • Loss of a close ally with ties to Leaf.
  • Things Hazou doesn't know about:
    • Capturing and interrogation of Isan patrols, and its missing-nin.
 
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Miscellaneous concerns which are not strictly related to preventing Armageddon, such as AMITY destroying Leaf or the horror of committing genocide, but are important enough to be voiced out loud.
I would prefer if some of these were listed out. Otherwise they're so under specified that they probably won't get mentioned to Asuma.

1) Difficulties using EM nuke in the Dragonwar
2) AMITY destroying Leaf for nuking Isan
3) Hazou getting blamed for it somehow, as he was the ostensible cause of the "sealing failure"
 
I would prefer if some of these were listed out. Otherwise they're so under specified that they probably won't get mentioned to Asuma.

1) Difficulties using EM nuke in the Dragonwar
2) AMITY destroying Leaf for nuking Isan
3) Hazou getting blamed for it somehow, as he was the ostensible cause of the "sealing failure"
How does this look?
[X] [Isan] Free(z)ing the Jungle
  • Hazou is generally opposed to destroying Isan with Elemental Mastery based on his current awareness of the situation.
    • Hazou is not stubborn and is willing to change his viewpoint, but is not convinced that destroying Isan is necessary at this point in time.
  • The facts as Hazou knows them:
    • Isan has agreed to trade Fire ninjutsu exclusively with Leaf, and there is a replacement for Elemental Mastery, which presumably is being traded with Isan. Both these things indicate that spread of Elemental Mastery is controlled.
    • Isan-nin with knowledge of Elemental Mastery may not be present in Isan during its destruction. These survivors represent a risk of EM proliferation.
    • Isan-nin may have undiscovered technique caches containing Elemental Mastery, and destroying Isan would make it impossible to locate them save by pure chance. These caches represent a risk of EM proliferation.
    • Other concerns not strictly related to Elemental Mastery-related Armageddon:
      • Additional difficulties related to EM Nukes in the Dragonwar.
      • AMITY destroying Leaf in retaliation.
      • General horrors of destroying an allied village/killing thousands of people.
  • Things Hazou doesn't know about:
    • Capturing and interrogation of Isan patrols, and its missing-nin.
 
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