Unfortunately no, I am not much in favour of the current winning plan at the moment. I was not part of the discussion and I don't really have the time to go back the thread to look it up. Perhaps you could clarify what those points are? I'll consider it afterwards.

Besides, it's just 2 votes. It'll hardly cause a disaster given the number of votes.
We knew the deal was effectively meant to be perpetual - that pulling out in the manner we did was against the spirit of the agreement.

I don't want to lie to the Rats.

I'm not asking you up vote for my Conclave plan (the other one currently in the mix) but I will point out that it doesn't involve telling lies to people who value not being deceptive that are also going to really, really piss off our hosts.
 
I'm not asking you up vote for my Conclave plan (the other one currently in the mix) but I will point out that it doesn't involve telling lies to people who value not being deceptive that are also going to really, really piss off our hosts.
Being honest with the rats sounds great, and I like your approach! If you want to gather up votes, would you consider answering my question?

I'm thinking of voting for this.

Is there a reason we don't outright ask the rats for help/council on getting Conjura to the conclave?

Also, do you intend to the oath section to include the newer points the thread made? (we gave termination notice, which our culture considers the good faith way to end such an agreement. also, hazo never swore anything, and this change of policy happened when he took over the clan from Jirya. Ect.)
 
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  • Annex Isan into Leaf officially, citing Whirlpool's demise with Leaf not doing all it could to protect its allies previously (if that was an event in MfD and I am not just confusing canon with MfD lore)
  • Have the Yamanaka over the course of several days selectively wipe EM and other assorted techniques from Isan ninja in exchange for some shinies that we can confirm Isan would agree would be worth such a procedure. The Yamanaka could be a part of a greater humanitarian mission to Isan to inoculate the Isanese to the wider world they are now becoming a part of. If primitive vaccines are a thing in MfD we could use those as further incentives to help protect the Isan population from outside dangers while passing the Yamanaka off as part of that process through social fu from Leaf diplomats.
    • This is all assuming that the Yamanaka can even do psychic surgery this delicately in the first place. We would have to run this idea by Asuma first before asking Ino at all though due to the level of clearance involved.
Annexing Isan is not an option, as we discussed earlier in the thread. We have no way to convince them that doesn't spoil EM nukes, which would just cause them to develop their own EM nukes and defeat the purpose.

We cannot militarily compel them to be annexed because of AMITY, Isan is a signatory.

As to the second idea, it is absurdly impractical.
1) Yamanaka almost certainly can't do psychic surgery that delicately.
2) If they can, only 2-3 people in their clan can do it at all
3) How are you going to convince all 500 Isanese to undergo psychic surgery without militarily compelling them or spoiling the secret of EM? No amount of "shinies" would ever convince anyone to put their entire country in someone else's power like that.

I observe that any high-level (Jonin) ninja in Isan are very likely to flee and survive. And those ninja are the ones most likely to figure out what happened (Leaf attacked Isan) and/or have Elemental Mastery themselves.
I want to note that unless they bolt with skywalkers on as soon as it's cast they won't make it out. That was the result of all our testing. Most of their important people will be indoors anyway. Which means they're even less likely to make it out. I don't think anyone inside the village proper would make it out.

But even if they did, there's almost no evidence linking it to Leaf, and certainly no evidence EM was the jutsu used.

The only bit of intelligence they could ever get is that a similar storm was observed in Leaf a while ago and it was thought to be a Sealing failure by the Hokage.

But really they've been isolated for so long that they'd be hopeless at gathering information. I wouldn't worry about Isan figuring it out.

No what worries me is Akatsuki figuring it out.
 
  • Hazou's perspective: (He'll share this bit IFF asked directly)
    • Massacring Isan is monstrous, but saving humanity is more important.
      • Big question: does destroying Isan this way actually help save humanity?
      • Approach: get everyone to consider carefully and discuss. make sure nothing is missed, then weigh our choices together. Although ultimately defer to Asuma
  • Let/ask Asuma to lay out all the considerations as he see them.
  • Bring up any of the following points if he didn't, and they still seem relevant:
    • Using EM here means we might not be able use it in the Dragonwar without Akatsuki realizing Leaf destroyed Isan
      • Predicated on Akatsuki summoners joining the Dragonwar
    • Every time the EM nuke is used it is another bit of information out in the world that Leaf can do it on-demand.
      • Lots of people know Hazou was behind the "sealing failure" last time, presumably including foreign spies/agents.
    • Leaf has obtained exclusive rights for all Isanese Fire jutsu and spread an EM replacement. Both of those reduce the spread of EM from Isan.
      • Given time, Hazou might be able to devise a seal that neutralizes the effect of EM.
    • It is unlikely that the nuke will kill every Isanese ninja. There is a very real risk of committing the atrocity and not succeeding in eliminating EM.
  • Decision time:
    • Discuss as a group. Make sure no factors are overlooked. Put significant weight on Shikamaru's final opinion.
      • Killing Isan to protect the world from EM, Considered in isolation, is probably worth it.
        • (This very painful for Hazou to admit, but he can't afford to flinch from it when the stakes are this high.)
      • But EM might be entirely replaced by the replacement variant within a generation or two anyways, and using EM risks AMITY destroying Leaf, and Dragons destroying the world
        • How high are these risks?
I made lots of suggested edits to your plan, I quite like it on the whole. But there was some wording I'd like changed. It's close to 300 words, could easily be trimmed down a bit. I did delete some things I wasn't a big fan of.

We really don't want to volunteer in a room that Kei is in that Hazou is willing to destroy Isan. If directly asked, Hazou can admit it. But I don't think it's something we should share if at all possible.

I changed some of the language surrounding the discourse about using EM in the Dragonwar as I don't agree that it 100% rules out using EM. It does make it more difficult. So we still mention that.

Added a few more considerations that I think Asuma should be aware of.
 
Copying over from the discord sealing channel by request of @_The_Bomb :

Greatshield Seal: A shimmering circular plane of force stretches between two elements and blocks attacks. The elements are movable relative to each other while active (which resizes the circle).

This is an A-rank defensive seal, with the main drawback being that you need to hold an element in each hand in order to use it, leaving none free for weapons/jutsu. A stunt for specialising in kicks will let you use Taijutsu while using the Greatshield.
 
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Annexing Isan is not an option, as we discussed earlier in the thread. We have no way to convince them that doesn't spoil EM nukes, which would just cause them to develop their own EM nukes and defeat the purpose.
Disagree. If Asuma sits down with Takahashi and tells him with full certainty, Isan is an existential threat to the rest of the world, explaining the threat raises its risk of happening. "There are hundreds dead," pulls up sleeve to show pox on his arm. "In Leaf, contained the spread to me, so far." Either they submit to Konoha rule or we will break AMITY with full prejudice to exterminate them. Stick to the truth or mix in lies. 'Orochimaru already infected all of them with lethal parasites that will activate without intervention.' They will be devastated to lose their independence but like any sane person they do not want to be responsible for an apocalypse. Even higher odds of success if there are repeated chances to run the conversation within Truth Lost in the Fog.

Annexing at gunpoint. No downside to trying if SCs are already in position to cast multiple EM should negotiations fail.
 
Disagree. If Asuma sits down with Takahashi and tells him with full certainty, Isan is an existential threat to the rest of the world, explaining the threat raises its risk of happening. "There are hundreds dead," pulls up sleeve to show pox on his arm. "In Leaf, contained the spread to me, so far." Either they submit to Konoha rule or we will break AMITY with full prejudice to exterminate them. Stick to the truth or mix in lies. 'Orochimaru already infected all of them with lethal parasites that will activate without intervention.' They will be devastated to lose their independence but like any sane person they do not want to be responsible for an apocalypse. Even higher odds of success if there are repeated chances to run the conversation within Truth Lost in the Fog.

Annexing at gunpoint. No downside to trying if SCs are already in position to cast multiple EM should negotiations fail.
How does submitting to Konoha rule prevent the "lethal plague" from spreading? This story wouldn't fool a child.
 
Being honest with the rats sounds great, and I like your approach! If you want to gather up votes, would you consider answering my question?
Do we want Conjura at the Conclave? It seems like Pantsaa would just suplex her into oblivion if she set talon in Pangolin.

I can be more explicit in asking them for help but IMO when I say 'hey what would you need to have a relationship with us sufficient to free the Condors and kill the Dragons' I feel like I'm being pretty clear.

Thoughts? Do you have proposed changes?
 
Do we want Conjura at the Conclave?
Paper said that was one of our objectives, right? Which, to be honest, I did NOT remember being the case :V

A reminder that your two goals at the Conclave were: 1) Convince people of the Dragon threat so that they'll honestly advocate for their Bosses' presence when Enma arrives with his message, and 2) Find a way for Conjura to be a party to the Conclave when the other Bosses arrive.
Hmm, I guess this isn't quite the same as getting her to the Conclave...
 
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I made lots of suggested edits to your plan, I quite like it on the whole. But there was some wording I'd like changed. It's close to 300 words, could easily be trimmed down a bit. I did delete some things I wasn't a big fan of.

We really don't want to volunteer in a room that Kei is in that Hazou is willing to destroy Isan. If directly asked, Hazou can admit it. But I don't think it's something we should share if at all possible.

I changed some of the language surrounding the discourse about using EM in the Dragonwar as I don't agree that it 100% rules out using EM. It does make it more difficult. So we still mention that.

Added a few more considerations that I think Asuma should be aware of.
Thanks! <3
I appreciate the work/improvement, and have edited all wording and much content match your version. Thank you.
[X][Isan] Action Plan: Frank Consideration
This plan is for Isan only.
  • Hazou's perspective: (He'll share this bit IFF asked directly)
    • Massacring Isan is monstrous, but saving humanity is more important.
      • Big question: does destroying Isan this way actually help save humanity?
      • Approach: get everyone to consider carefully and discuss. make sure nothing is missed, then weigh our choices together. Although ultimately defer to Asuma
  • Let/ask Asuma to lay out all the considerations as he see them.
  • Bring up any of the following points if he didn't, and they still seem relevant:
    • Using EM here means we might not be able use it in the Dragonwar without Akatsuki realizing Leaf destroyed Isan
    • Every time the EM nuke is used it is another bit of information out in the world that Leaf can do it on-demand.
      • Lots of people know Hazou was behind the "sealing failure" last time, presumably including foreign spies/agents.
    • Leaf has obtained exclusive rights for all Isanese Fire jutsu and spread an EM replacement. Both of those reduce the spread of EM from Isan.
    • How likely is it that the nuke will kill every Isanese ninja? There is a very real risk of committing the atrocity and not succeeding in eliminating EM.
  • Decision time:
    • Discuss as a group. Make sure no factors are overlooked. Put significant weight on Shikamaru's final opinion.
      • Killing Isan to protect the world from EM, Considered in isolation, is probably worth it.
        • (This very painful for Hazou to admit, but he can't afford to flinch from it when the stakes are this high.)
      • EM might be entirely replaced by the replacement variant within a generation or two anyways, and using EM risks AMITY destroying Leaf, and Dragons destroying the world
        • How high are these risks?



I few things I haven't included, and why.
  • Using EM here means we might not be able use it in the Dragonwar without Akatsuki realizing Leaf destroyed Isan
    • Predicated on Akatsuki summoners joining the Dragonwar
There will be way to many Summoners involved, and this event will become general legend in the 7th path. The summoners for every involved clan will hear about this, and anyone who's heard about Isan getting EM nuked(which would be ~everyone) would be able to put it together. this could include Kei Ruka, Neji, Orochimaru, Kagome, and a bunch of other summoners.
Actuality, the Crows keep an eye on the human path, and Isan getting nuked would be a big deal for Itachi. the Crows would put the two together, and presumably tell Itachi.
The Sharks are right by the Dragons, and presumably are in contact with Kisame.

Given time, Hazou might be able to devise a seal that neutralizes the effect of EM.
Even with a wide-area defensive seal, now missions are about destroying seals and killing enemy sealmasters, or hitting farmland, or freezing the air far above/around the target, ect. even if a seal affecting miles of area was realistic(chakra diffusion!), it would still end badly.

It is unlikely that the nuke will kill every Isanese ninja.
How likely is it that the nuke will kill every Isanese ninja?
Isan has been very isolationist, and Asuma might roughly know if/how many Isanese ninja are away on long-distance missions. I'd rather ask than assume.

LMK if you disagree with any of this.
 
"Ami, people only last in the Pure Lands for as long as they are remembered. You'd be hard pressed to find someone in Leaf who couldn't tell you Jiraiya's story, but Akane was just another barely-remarkable chūnin to the masses. She was, until I founded an organization will become a permanent fixture in the lives of the majority of Leaf's ninja forces, and dedicated it to her and the story of her sacrifice.

I don't know how much time I bought Akane, but the effort required damn well wasn't a waste of my time. Perhaps it slightly delayed the resurrection of those who will enshrine your desired world order — though I doubt it — but I would take that trade in a heartbeat if I means giving my loved ones a better chance to survive."
This.
Also, is the Minato Seal Project confidential? It's not like we've been lazy with the necromancy project, we've been preparing for it.

Couldn't we just get Isan to join Leaf? Like sure, it might be difficult to get that to happen but if its doable then it beats killing them all. That and hack some "improvement" to EM that is flat out better and make it public library so they don't use EM in the future. Chances are if they haven't discovered the Nuke for generations they won't suddenly have their very few if any jounin level EM near the peak of their pyramid to unlock the possibility.
I think this was already mentioned right after the EM accident: this is an X-risk and Asuma is not willing to leave it to chance.
To allay Asuma's fears, we must find a solution where Isan cannot use nor propagate knowledge of the EM bomb. Killing them all sounds like the simplest option; and I assume it won't be easy to convince Asuma to talk to Isan before nuking them, since he'll want to sneak attack them. But even if we can negotiate with Isan, what do we ask them? Unless we Yamanaka them, I find it doubtful we can solve the situation.

A. Work with murderous S-rankers who don't like us. And have no reason to keep us alive.
B. Revive the all-powerful leader of the S-rankers and hope he lets us revive his arch rival/arch enemy
C. BTW these guys tried to destroy the world before.

It'd literally be better to do nothing and just let Jiraiya and Akane be dead forever.

A. And yet we've survived a couple of tense encounters with them. It's like fiddling with a bomb, sure, but cooperation may be possible.
B. As others have mentioned, he seems somewhat aligned with our goals. He'll probably either disagree with us but leave us alone, or straight up help us. As for Jiraiya's resurrection, it could be fine so long as Jiraiya doesn't hinder his goals; Jiraiya wants Leaf's prosperity and his family's safety above all, which doesn't run counter to world peace, wouldn't you say?
C. That's where I agree with you. I need to re-read that passage, because I still don't understand why they wanted that.

What do we do now?
  • Recruit Naruto. Start by talking to naruto about the transhumanist and anti-deathist themes in his dad's poetry. we can start this TODAY.
  • Contact Hidan somehow, and have a method of keeping him busy.

Perhaps we could send the relevant poems to Naruto without trying to talk up anti-deathism? He's smart enough to understand the themes, and trying to manipulate him (even lightly) is not a good idea. We can always discuss the poems with him after he's read them.

Hidan'd be so happy to kill some people for us! ...but do we actually need to keep him busy? Perhaps there's a way to bring him to our anti-deathism faction in a Jashinist way?

Did we ever research those Isan seals? I think our claim would be better received if we had proof here. I don't even think we researched the Sarubetsu seals either.
Kagome would probably know, what with all his love letters.
 
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Who would have the audacity to lie about this? There is so much to lose, so little to gain. Ton of information is conveyed by giving his word. Famously isolationist is not full on suicidal.
Little to gain? What? Gaining full political control over another village is "so little". And much to lose? What is Asuma losing here exactly? His reputation, but nothing else. You literally have this ass-backwards.

Also, who would hand over political control of his village on some other village's "Trust me bro"? Only a moron would do that, and Takahashi has consistently been shown to be a fine thinker and a good politician. He won't do this. This idea is going nowhere. I'm done discussing it.

There will be way to many Summoners involved, and this event will become general legend in the 7th path. The summoners for every involved clan will hear about this, and anyone who's heard about Isan getting EM nuked(which would be ~everyone) would be able to put it together. this could include Kei Ruka, Neji, Orochimaru, Kagome, and a bunch of other summoners.
Actuality, the Crows keep an eye on the human path, and Isan getting nuked would be a big deal for Itachi. the Crows would put the two together, and presumably tell Itachi.
The Sharks are right by the Dragons, and presumably are in contact with Kisame.
Right now the only Summoners involved are Leaf affiliated, there is only one active non-Leaf, non-Akatsuki Summoner that we know of, Grandmaster F out of Cloud. She never summons anything and might actually be unaware that the Conclave is happening.

Any Leaf affiliated Summoners are easy to command to silence. That's easy for Asuma to do. The main risk is Akatsuki Summoners putting everything together. Which is why they're the only ones I mentioned.

If the Crow Boss comes on Crusade but Itachi doesn't, yeah, let's not EM nuke, same for Kisame and the Shark Boss. Otherwise I think it's fine. The butte is far inland. So the only possible leak there is if one of the present Bosses tells them what happened.

I'm sure there are going to be lots of wild tales regarding the fight, with that many great powers fighting, the weather being crazy is probably going to get mentioned, but there's a lot going on and I doubt anyone will put it together.

Isan has been very isolationist, and Asuma might roughly know if/how many Isanese ninja are away on long-distance missions. I'd rather ask than assume.
They regularly go out on chakra beast extermination missions out of the village. It's doubtful that destroying Isan would get those ninja.
 
Little to gain? What? Gaining full political control over another village is "so little". And much to lose? What is Asuma losing here exactly? His reputation, but nothing else. You literally have this ass-backwards.

Also, who would hand over political control of his village on some other village's "Trust me bro"? Only a moron would do that, and Takahashi has consistently been shown to be a fine thinker and a good politician. He won't do this. This idea is going nowhere. I'm done discussing it.
Sorry for wasting your time.
 
Let's assume attack on Akane was an enemy action as we need to presume. Then it's either an enemy nation attacking random chuunin for no clear gain or a high chance a different nation knows Leaf has a nuke. Then if Leaf uses EM nuke they show their evidence and Leaf gets destroyed along with Isan, completing EM eradication. Well done.
 
Do we want Conjura at the Conclave? It seems like Pantsaa would just suplex her into oblivion if she set talon in Pangolin.

I can be more explicit in asking them for help but IMO when I say 'hey what would you need to have a relationship with us sufficient to free the Condors and kill the Dragons' I feel like I'm being pretty clear.

Thoughts? Do you have proposed changes?
I'd prefer to add as the second sub-bullet in this section something like
  • "We would like help/advice on how to secure Cojura's inclusion in the DragonFight, and possibly the conclave"
I'll trust you to add it(or not) as you see fit.
[X][Conclave] Clear Communication

-----

If the Crow Boss comes on Crusade but Itachi doesn't, yeah, let's not EM nuke, same for Kisame and the Shark Boss. Otherwise I think it's fine. The butte is far inland. So the only possible leak there is if one of the present Bosses tells them what happened.

I'm sure there are going to be lots of wild tales regarding the fight, with that many great powers fighting, the weather being crazy is probably going to get mentioned, but there's a lot going on and I doubt anyone will put it together.
EM nukes turn hundreds of square miles into total frozen death and kill anything the uses biology to live, presumably including clan bosses. I imagine this would be at the forefont of almost every story. I don't think it would be ignored as "just crazy weather".

They regularly go out on chakra beast extermination missions out of the village. It's doubtful that destroying Isan would get those ninja.
I can rephrase this as a statement if you feel strongly. On the off-chance we're wrong, Kei or Snowflake get to have fun correcting us, so not much downside.
 
A. And yet we've survived a couple of tense encounters with them. It's like fiddling with a bomb, sure, but cooperation may be possible.
B. As others have mentioned, he seems somewhat aligned with our goals. He'll probably either disagree with us but leave us alone, or straight up help us. As for Jiraiya's resurrection, it could be fine so long as Jiraiya doesn't hinder his goals; Jiraiya wants Leaf's prosperity and his family's safety above all, which doesn't run counter to world peace, wouldn't you say?
C. That's where I agree with you. I need to re-read that passage, because I still don't understand why they wanted that.

C kinda destroys B though right? Like how is Nagato aligned with our goals if he tried to destroy the world and is friends with and the leader of Itachi and Hidan who lifewiped an entire island because reasons and who (specifically Hidan) loves to kill and sacrifice people to his god?
 
C kinda destroys B though right? Like how is Nagato aligned with our goals if he tried to destroy the world and is friends with and the leader of Itachi and Hidan who lifewiped an entire island because reasons and who (specifically Hidan) loves to kill and sacrifice people to his god?
If we meet Nagato and don't think we can work with him, we can try to perma-kill him, or cripple him, or restrain him somewhere the Akatsuki will have a hard time finding him, ect. Heck, we could try to nab his eyes and run to Tsunadae. We have a lot of options.

If Nageto dosen't work out, we look for Minato or Jariya or whoever else we want.
Even if we find signs of Minato or Jiraya or anyone else promising before we find Nagato, we can easily decide to stop and rescue/recruit them first.

Nageto is one option. Best case scenario, he's cooperative and Mari confirms he'll work with us on our terms. If that dosen't work out for any reason, we have a ton of fallback options.
 
As an aside, I was wondering why the topic is coming up now instead of sooner or later, and I just realized: Asuma probably just now leveled his EM high enough to nuke with it. The timelines fit, I think, given how IIRC he was still carefully training it up not too long ago.

As it pertains to the planmaking: this may have been Asuma's plan for a long time now, and only getting brought to the table now that he actually has the nuke in his hands. Granted, until recently he had Akane in the loop, but he might not have trusted Akane to carry out such an order (or not personally been willing to place that burden on someone else when he could take it on himself).
 
BTW these guys tried to destroy the world before
Did they? I thought Nagato was trying to live patch ninshu/chakra so that it actually communicated by default rather than it having to be actively used for that purpose.
The Sage thought he could piggyback off its intelligence to make the chakra in one person talk to the chakra in another, make them understand each other on a gut level. But of course he screwed it up. It didn't occur to him that connecting everyone wasn't enough. Sending and receiving are active processes, and he'd made chakra passive

The obvious wish would be to let me finish the ritual," Pain said. "Once our hearts are united, war will not merely cease. The very idea will become laughable. We will look back on this dark age with the horror it deserves."
 
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