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  • Using Earthshaping, fix structural faults in (and hyper-condense) all building materials (increases defensiveness).
    • Work with construction crews/engineers to ensure Earthshaped material is safe to use.
  • ES-Condensed Corundum windows (Main Family Building)
ES-Reinforced walkways (QoL improvement)
Goketsu Event Building
  • Huge dragon skeleton carving.
  • ES gold filigree into important buildings (use shapes reminiscent of sealwork)
  • ES relief carvings that resemble sealing on surfaces, hiding real seals in the noise.
This plan requires a lot of Earthshaping from Hazou. I don't think that's a good idea for a couple of reasons

1) ES is a public jutsu and we don't want to bring attention to it. Doing lots of really cool things with it publicly is probably not a good idea
2) Hazou is a very busy man, this requires lots and lots of his time. We really want to be focusing on FOOMing, seal research, and Clan Head stuff. We're already cutting into FOOM time balancing seal research and Clan Head stuff. This plan is adding a lot of additional work for Hazou at a time where he is stretched thin.

I think most of these things should be cut. We're richer than God now, let's hire it out. We can still have the things, but without Hazou's personal efforts.

We really don't need ES-reinforced walkways and the like. It's a cool idea, but ultimately something we can live without.

Marble statues, holding seals? (Leaf's heroes. Include fallen Goketsu?)
OTOH I think this is a great idea, I love the idea of Leaf's greatest heroes (and Akane ofc) lighting up the Estate. It's a great use for ES too, we've already done lots of statues with it, so it reveals no new capabilities to the general public, and a dozen or so statues isn't too much of a time commitment from Hazou.

With Mari, Hazou Earthshapes fully anatomically accurate Jiraiya Colossus. Clothe in Arachnid Silk garments.
Ahhh yes the great Dick Debate. I think we should go all in on the size of the Jiraiya statue, but let's just not make a public statement about Jiraiya's cock.

It's a great meme, but we're trying to be respected in Leaf and it's not worth the "WTF are those crazy Goketsu thinking" reactions IMO.

And I remain fully convinced that clothes on a statue are just dumb.

Let's just make a really big impressive statue of Jiraiya in a public place, and once we rez him we can give it a huge bulge as a prank one day.
 
You were initially under the impression that the Pangolins were fighting a defensive war.
I would probably mention that they led us to believe this on purpose tbh. Hazou WAS ignorant but they preyed on his and Kei's ignorance.

Also, may be worth reinforcing that Hazou does not believe ignorance makes him less guilty regarding the Condors, but that he does not feel like he violated any oath given that the deal was made under false pretenses (or maybe just the first part of this paragraph, up to you)
 
"Of course," Nezesari said, "those costs must actually exist to disincentivize war.
You freed Confute. I assume you'll pay dearly for it, and that's a good, costly signal that you're trustworthy.
If you always keep your contracts, you open up forms of coordination that would otherwise be impossible. For example, it lets you make trade deals with your worst enemies, because they know you won't break your word.
The Nezbians are out here talking game theory and incentives and signaling and precommitment...

Are the Rat clan goddamn... rats? Like... rationalists?

Magnificent.
 
I would probably mention that they led us to believe this on purpose tbh. Hazou WAS ignorant but they preyed on his and Kei's ignorance.

Also, may be worth reinforcing that Hazou does not believe ignorance makes him less guilty regarding the Condors, but that he does not feel like he violated any oath given that the deal was made under false pretenses (or maybe just the first part of this paragraph, up to you)
Changes made, pls review.

I want to say something about how the Rat's ideas work great when you can trust the other party but when you realize you can't trust the other party, what do you do? Because that's the situation we found ourselves in, and honestly I think we did the best we could in a bad situation.
"No," Hazō said bluntly. "It's not a unilateral termination anyway. They get advance warning and a month's shipment. That's how you're supposed to act when ending an agreement in good faith. Have you spoken to them already?"
Like...yeah. We ended the agreement in good faith.
 
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Insert Trump meme here.
I thought the contract was "we'll sell you these seals for this price".
But seriously, I can't imagine why Mari/Jiraiya thought it was a good deal. What if the sealmasters died and we couldn't supply skytowers anymore? One sealing failure could do it.

We already sold Skytowers to Leaf.

And we got:
  • 5 Ninjutsu
  • 5 Contracts (And Panashe is the most useful summon in the entire quest)
  • Shit ton of money that we used during the Exams
People seem to ignore that we were told that we were broke as a clan while other people wanted to vote Jirajya out of office, Akatsuki had Naruto, we were supposed to do really well in the Exams and some asshole commissioner Pangolin wanted to "renegotiate" Keiko's contract.

Also, just blame @faflec , it was his plan:
Blame faflec Link
 
Didn't see Ipsos Custodes post.
We got 5 new ninjutsu, Didn't really count PTJ.

Regarding (2), weren't these contracts ended with the deal? So it's moot.

We still can use Panashe and according to her sheet at least the others.

Regarding (3), did we ever actually get all 6? But fine, this is one thing we got that they can't really return (though we are still keeping with the no-trading/sharing/modifying parts of the deal).

Wedefinitely got PTJ, PH, GS and Earth Armor

We got Kagome Lightning Release: Pangolin Flash Technique, so hopefully he has that one. I don't think anyone got Exploring Tounge.

Besides for the jutsu (and the diamonds we can give them right now) it's not like the Goketsu even got a major benefit that wasn't mutual and contingent on the ongoing trade being ongoing.

We still agreed to the deal and then ended it. There was no renegotiation or recompensation that they agreed on. You want to show up 1-2 years later and say "here have some diamonds"?
 
I think it's not worth the gamble when we will have Enma just around the corner to vouch for this issue, bypassing the perception of human social norms entirely.
Fair enough! ...wait, did Enma also agree to supporting us on our "oathbreaker" image? I know he's coming to help us with our little dragon issue, but did we explicitly include other forms of support?


From what the Rats just told us, if he's not an Oathbreaker then he's presumptively credible if he gives his word, and that can make all the difference. If they know what the deal actually was and that they have been mislead then Hazou hasn't done anything wrong in their eyes.
The Rats didn't seem to care about the reason for breaking a deal so much as the fact it was broken. They basically told Hazou he should have endured that terrible deal rather than be an oathbreaker; the other clans wouldn't have assumed Hazou was pangolin-evil, just that he was keeping his promise. We don't have that option anymore. As AntiSanity mentioned above, having a clan support our image would be both less risky and more effective. The conclave won't last long, so building trust might be difficult without involving others.
 
You accepted this deal believing the Pangolins were fighting a defensive war. They said as much. You were unaware of their genocidal ambitions. Again; you erred in failing to investigate further, but you were somewhat deceived.

Nah, we pretty much knew:
"As for the Hyena Clan and the Leopard Clan and such, I guess we could just enslave them. I mean, they're our sworn enemies, but because they've always been our sworn enemies, at least they've never betrayed us. Once we wipe out their military, I'm sure we'll be able to find a benevolent use for the civilians.

That was before we even joined Leaf.
 
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Nah, we pretty much knew:


That was before we even joined Leaf.
I mean technically, it wasn't in our face until the fall of the condors.

But yeah, anyone who think that giving weapons to a culture that already appears to be highly militaristic, have no issues with slavery, and talk about the destruction of their enemies many rimes will only use seals for "defensive purposes" is definitely wrong wrong.
 
Is there any other plans other than the clear communication one? I feel that saying we believe that pangolins are defensively fighting will not end well for us.

Either we looked like incredibly stupid for missing something obvious or we just don't care who make deals with.
 
[X] Update 'Promising Sealing Student' to 'Upcoming Sealing Prodigy'
[X] Update 'Promising Sealing Student' to 'Youngest Sealing Jounin'

[X] Action Plan: A Cause for Celebration
Nah, we pretty much knew:


That was before we even joined Leaf.
I remember, at the time, a common thread of discussion being that the Pangolins were probably representative of all cultures on the Seventh Path. Between the skies coloured like a grand strategy game and the extant cultural framework of "all the ninja villages are ruthless machiavellian dictatorships eager to wage war whenever they can", we figured the Condors were just as militant and aggressive as the Pangolins were. And if we're willing to support our local dictator against the other dictators to advance Uplift, why wouldn't we do the same for our local 7Path dictator?

(At the very least, that was the take that I remember saying myself, if not in as many words. I definitely remember predicting that the Condors were militaristic warmongers just like the Pangolins and the Kages.)

It's only later that we realized, no, the Pangolins are actually The Worst and the Condors were an entirely innocent people. And as mentioned by others, this ignorance was deliberately cultivated by the Pangolins who, above and beyond their normal levels of propaganda, had an interest in keeping their arms dealers from understanding the injustice of their war.

We aren't innocent. We knew we were giving military power to an awful Clan, power which they'd use to harm others. But we did think they were fighting a defensive war (and just perfectly willing to go on the offensive if given the chance) and IIRC we didn't really understand how much it would help them. I recall being distinctly surprised at the news that Condor had fallen, instead of Pangolin just taking the advantage and maybe seizing some territory with that advantage. Even under our false beliefs that the Condors were also awful, we did not predict that we would cause total subjugation of a Clan.

So it's complicated. We deliberately supported warmongers knowing exactly that's what they are. We were exploited with lies and withheld knowledge. We underestimated the impact of our bargain. We went through with it anyways, knowing that we only had one source for our perspective. I feel a strong case could be made that our defining characteristic here is hubris: we did not look deeper, did not question the stories we told ourselves even as we acknowledged the unreliability of our information. We did not believe our actions could cause true harm, despite how much was offered in exchange. And when we saw ourselves from the outside, learned the truth that contradicted what we led ourselves to believe, the veil fell away and we saw how foolish we had truly been.
 
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Even under our false beliefs that the Condors were also awful, we did not predict that we would cause total subjugation of a Clan.

I agree that this was a suprise, the first deal was just 10 Skytowers.

It's only later that we realized, no, the Pangolins are actually The Worst and the Condors were an entirely innocent people.

Doesn't help that we heard that the Pangolin, Toads and Otters were in an (defensive) alliance against them.

But
I don't think we were tricked, the Pangolin didn't really hide any intentions from us.
The part I quoted also showed that they went on the offensive with two more clans (Hyena and Leopard (that seemingly later became allies against the Hyena))

So we weren't tricked into anything at this point anymore, we knew that they were very agressive and could have investigated more at this point.

I think one of the ways to deal with the Rat's here is a) talking about the fact that we didn't realize that the Pangolin-Toad-Otter alliance was mostly defensive. (Maybe we should ask somebody what the Toad-Condor war/fighting in the past was about, but we can just ask the Toads). And b) that we trusted Jiraiya, a learned statesman and someone who was 30-40 years the Toad summoner and travled the place a bit to accept the deal originally.

Pointing out that Hazou ended the deal as NEW clan head, might work better as excuse. @FaintlySorcerous ?

Hazou could than compare it to his own travels and that he, Kagome, Enma and Orochimaru did take the Great Seal serious and married Kumokogo to see it. So yes, Hazou does actually take Oath's serious.
 
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We still agreed to the deal and then ended it. There was no renegotiation or recompensation that they agreed on. You want to show up 1-2 years later and say "here have some diamonds"?

We agreed to a deal, did the deal for a while, and then stopped the ongoing exchange portion.

Imagine it was a month to month apartment rental with a signing bonus - we got the bonus, paid rent for a few months as agreed to, and then decided to move. Or a credit card bonus, we got our free tote bag in the mail, used the card for a few months, then canceled it. Your landlord/credit card isn't going to sue you and say there was the implied term of the deal that you continue living there/using that card for at least 20 years, if there's a minimum duration that needed to be specified and part of the agreement.

We never intended or believed this was an agreement in perpetuity, that the Goketsu would forever need to dedicate some time every month to making these seals (or even buying them if the clan no longer had a qualified Sealmaster) and have Kei, or the next Pangolin Summoner, or the one after that, etc. give them in exchange for gold. That in the event of a Pangolin peace they would still be required to keep providing gold no matter what every month in exchange for seals they're not using and no longer want?

The only genuine negative interpretation is that the negotiations were always in bad faith and we negotiated a much more beneficial signing bonus with some irrevocable elements knowing that we intended to end the deal long before the Pangolins expected to get their recompense for that upfront cost.

It's genuinely surprising why everyone is viewing this as a broken contract/oathbreaking *unless* the expectation on the 7th Path is that, in fact, contracts are perpetual unless stated otherwise. In which case this is a true misunderstanding because we never would have negotiated a permanent obligation on the clan, at least not like that.

We've already been told that the Pangolins were upset we shared the jutsu in an clan that is primarily growing through adoptions, that they expected that it would be a very slow and gradual natural birth-based process that the clan would grow.

The Pangolins have buyer's remorse for not clarifying terms upfront and making some assumptions - about how human clans grow, about how much the Goketsu needed the deal and would continue it until the Pangolins canceled it, etc.

They are unwilling to admit their mistakes during negotiations, especially since Pantsaa negotiated directly, so instead they're ostensibly spreading some false/misleading description of what we did in order to have Hazou painted as an Oathbreaker and Pantsaa painted as competent.

After all, how else can their Clan Leader/military commander/religious head save face for a war that abruptly ended mid-fighting because your arms dealer decided to discontinue selling more arms after getting a very nice signing bonus because your negotiater (said leader) never thought to include a duration or cancelation clause? Especially when Kei wasn't exactly a skilled or experienced negotiater herself and the Pangolins probably thought the Goketsu got taken to the cleaners in that deal.

Which, let's be honest, they did. A continual supply of a major military asset which unilaterally allowed the invasion and conquering of 1.5 neighboring Clans in mere months in exchange for what's really not that much gold, Summoning contracts (which enhanced the power and prestige of their own summoner), some jutsu (which are very basic, and one is a training jutsu every Pangolin knows), and some diamonds?

Is there any other plans other than the clear communication one? I feel that saying we believe that pangolins are defensively fighting will not end well for us.

There's mine, don't think there's a lot of interest in it though.

[X][Conclave] Pangolin Propaganda Opposed
  • Continue dinner with rats
  • Remorsefully say at the end that you regret not knowing that trade deals on the 7th Path are perpetual, you know to be more careful now.
  • Rats will probably ask what you mean.
  • Clarify that is why they consider Hazou to be an Oathbreaker, that the deal of trading gold for seals was monthly and that he ended it, he didn't know it was a 7th Path expectation that deals like that are perpetual unless stated otherwise. It is rude to cancel monthly trade deals on the Human Path without warning, but not considered dishonest or a breach of an oath unless explicitly agreed to be perpetual.
  • Ask them where they heard about any other sort of deal with the Pangolins - have the Pangolins been spreading a different story?
  • Unless this is a terrible error that the rest of the 7th Path considers to be obvious and the core of Oathbreaking, relay this information to the other delegates in the guise of making/discussing trade deals and explaining how you've learned the need to specify deals are not indefinite, the error with the Pangolins in this way has tarred your reputation because you didn't understand that nuance of 7th Path etiquette but you have learned to be careful.
  • If the Pangolins have been spreading a false story about the deal, lean on Kei/Snowflake to best counter it as the Pangolin Summoner, follow their lead. She was the only one actually present for the deal besides for Pantsaa.
I probably won't be on here enough to edit this regularly, so feel free to take liberally from this.
 
We never intended or believed this was an agreement in perpetuity, that the Goketsu would forever need to dedicate some time every month to making these seals (or even buying them if the clan no longer had a qualified Sealmaster) and have Kei, or the next Pangolin Summoner, or the one after that, etc. give them in exchange for gold.

Which is why I said that we never got to renegotiate. We did agree to the whole every month part.


We've already been told that the Pangolins were upset we shared the jutsu in an clan that is primarily growing through adoptions, that they expected that it would be a very slow and gradual natural birth-based process that the clan would grow.

And were sticking to the letter of the agreement, I would argue that we aren't doing anything wrong.

The Pangolins have buyer's remorse for not clarifying terms upfront and making some assumptions
They are unwilling to admit their mistakes during negotiations

Some people want to do basically the same? "We didn't know that X"? Sellers remose?

Which, let's be honest, they did. A continual supply of a major military asset which unilaterally allowed the invasion and conquering of 1.5 neighboring Clans in mere months in exchange for what's really not that much gold, Summoning contracts (which enhanced the power and prestige of their own summoner), some jutsu (which are very basic, and one is a training jutsu every Pangolin knows), and some diamonds?

Four non-elemental jutsu like this are actually pretty rare, that's the huge advantage, especially for a clan of people with very different abilities.

The deal originally also included a telepathic communication jutsu:
Pantokrator's Communion:
Requirements: Control * 2 Intelligence * 2

Allows the caster to create a telepathic link with their target(s) via which each party can communicate to each other by intentionally sounding out words in their head with the link in mind.

Range is equal to level * 5 meters, and number of targets they have in a link at the same time is equal to level / 5 rounded up. Keeping a link open requires a Quick Action from the caster each round. Creating a new link to one person or adding people a person to an existing link costs a Combat Action for the caster. The caster must know where the target is to create a link. A given person can only be included in one link at a time and all thoughts sent to the link are heard by all participants -- there is no 'private channel' ability.

Cost: 1 CP per round (3 seconds) per person linked to

And, yes, we did get screwed. Twice.

Our very first deal with 10 Skytowers gave us a rather useless Wind ninjutsu and Pajandrum, who is technically strong, but also a lazy Pangolin. This second deal was a lot better, but it benefited them more.

But we still agreed to the deal, then just broke it.

I am not arguing about the part where the Pangolin are making themselves look like victims. I am arguing about us trying to weasle out of our part of the Deal by ignoring facts.

It's correct that we didn't agree on a time limit for the deal, but ending the deal after four months and in the middle of their war and then going "I never agreed on doing this forever", is just a terrible excuse. How do we come of as an potential reliable ally for other people? And claiming ignorance about their intention is both wrong and makes us look stupid.

[][Conclave] Pangolin Propaganda Opposed
 
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It's correct that we didn't agree on a time limit for the deal, but ending the deal after four months and in the middle of their war and then going "I never agreed on doing this forever", is just a terrible excuse. How do we come of as an potential reliable ally for other people? And claiming ignorance about their intention is both wrong and makes us look stupid.

But wasn't the war the Pangolins decision? It's like us renting an apartment and the tenant deciding to use the rented apartment as lynchpin for a illegal fighting ring by taking massive loans. It isn't us breaking the deal that screwed them, it was them doing irresponsible stuff and expecting us to cover for them for no reason, when we don't have the obligation to do so.
I mean, yes, we aren't reliable allies? Not being trustworthy allies of the Pangolins is a good thing. Neither are the Rats to the Pangolins, as they changed the current trade aggrements adding tarrifs, the point isn't that we're trustworthy allies or not, the point is "Is Hazou an oathbreaker?" To which the answer is "No?" IMHO.
 
The deal originally also included a telepathic communication jutsu:
Of note:
This one was removed from existence per QM discussion, not withdrawn from the deal by the Pangolins in-universe.

Editing to add:
Ok y'all, we have a sad announcement to make.

Two changes to the Pangolin clan jutsu:

1. Pantokrator's Communion is getting nixed.
Allowing it was a misunderstanding between the QMs regarding whether it was a jutsu that could be taught, or an innate one that couldn't. We'll be going through and fixing scenes where it was involved over the course of the week. We are working on coming up with a technique to replace it with in apology - something useful and likely nonelemental - and are open to suggestions. We would also be okay with giving the party one of the other approved jutsu. This will likely be put to a vote after the next chapter.
 
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Hazou took the blame to avoid Kei having the Pangolins remove her as summoner, that way it was his fault for not supplying the seals rather than her.

He *really* didn't break the deal, but in the fictional (super-fictional?) world where he purportedly ordered Kei to stop the deal he also didn't break any agreement to keep doing it forever.

Yes, but even in the pangolins story where the contract was perpetual, he never made any oath. He supposedly "took the blame" as in, ordered somebody else who also made no oaths to stop supplying skytowers to Kei. But he wasn't the one who negotiated the contract, he wasn't the clan head who swore the oath, and he wasn't the one who made the skytowers. He can't even infuse the things!

The only people who swore oaths were Jiraiya and Kei, and Jiraiya is dead. Kei by oath should still be "trying" to get skytowers, but since she is not a sealmaster she has no means to independently acquire them.

Hazo's story should be that he has never even met Pantsa, never infused a 5SB, and never been party to any oaths with the pangolin clan, and therefore cannot be an oathbreaker.

Essentially just blame everything on Jiraiya and the pangolins, because that's the truth.
 
I understand not wanting to immediately agree to the Conclave due to an apparent lack of evidence, and I even agree that (from their perspective) Hazou isn't the most trustworthy source. But multiple Summoners are all saying the same thing. They're all giving the same story.

I know that Jiriaya said that all Summoning Clans are xenophobic to a degree, but it feels like the Rats are just dismissing the threat of the Dragons because the warning's coming from a Human and not a Summon.

At least the Turtles and Porcupines seem to be more open to listening. Maybe the Rats and other fence-sitters will be swayed by Enma.

Now we just need to figure out how to get Conjura to the Conclave.
 
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