Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

ContextBot · Jun 8, 2021

[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed

@Shrooms , can you add that this is an invitation and Asuma can have this talk when ever he wants?

Shrooms said:
Hazou wants a warless world.

Probably not a big problem but we commit all kinds of acts of war, including attacking an allied clan (because we are in the same village, even Haru called Hazou out about "Hazou smash") and a lot of people want to assassinate Azai right now or bomb some unknown facility. Regardless of justification, those are acts of war.

And Hazou is kind of putting his ideology over the stability of Leaf. This is just something we can be called out by Asuma, he might not care what the Hagoromo believe, but he values their general usefulness more.

I still think this is unnecessary right now, but I don't like this part from the other plan:

MadScientist said:
Hazou does have problems not understanding when something would be dumb or treason. It's one of the core in-jokes of team uplift that most of his ideas are obvious junk to anyone else. Hazou's planning process is to generate lots of weird ideas and then run them past advisors and sanity-checkers. When such people aren't available, when Hazou mistakes someone as understanding that this is how his planning operates and he wanted their help screening his ideas, or when he leaps into an idea and forgets to ask people with more common sense what their thoughts are, is when problems can arise.

Kiba · Jun 8, 2021

[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed

I don't like these plans in general.

Orisha91 · Jun 8, 2021

Opinions on using Skytowers to attract Sky squid? Might be useful as food. Maybe Kagome knows.

Shrooms · Jun 8, 2021

ContextBot said:
you add that this is an invitation and Asuma can have this talk when ever he wants?

Done

ContextBot said:
we commit all kinds of acts of war

The point is that in Hazou's ideal world that wouldn't happen, not that Hazou isn't willing to engage in warfare of any kind. If Leaf goes to war I'd fully expect Hazou to be participating

ContextBot said:
And Hazou is kind of putting his ideology over the stability of

Technically as is, Hazou is saying he doesn't want specifically the Goketsu's prosperity to come at the expense of Leaf. Things like attacking the Hagoromo are (in his mind at least) about protecting both Keiko and other LGBT ninja of Leaf, or at least indicating someone is on their side. Nonetheless yeah if Asuma sees it as a bit hypocritical, at least he knows where Hazou's coming from now

Tua · Jun 8, 2021

MadScientist said:
Hazou's core ideology is to improve as much quality of life as possible, as quickly as possible, for anyone that could be reasonably defined as a person.

I believe something like this backfired once before. It was about trade with non-Leaf nations and Asuma got angry at Hazou because Asuma doesn't like Cloud (or was it Rock? Doesn't really matter for the point). And under your list and under what we know Hazou thinks, this point will get brought up again in such a discussion.

Asuma is a reasonable authority figure, all things considered, but he has his biases and doesn't forgive those that killed his friends and family easily.

That's a huge land mine Hazou needs to avoid if the goal is to make Asuma like and trust him more, not less.

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

Tua said:
I believe something like this backfired once before. It was about trade with non-Leaf nations and Asuma got angry at Hazou because Asuma doesn't like Cloud (or was it Rock? Doesn't really matter for the point). And under your list and under what we know Hazou thinks, this point will get brought up again in such a discussion.

Asuma is a reasonable authority figure, all things considered, but he has his biases and doesn't forgive those that killed his friends and family easily.

That's a huge land mine Hazou needs to avoid if the goal is to make Asuma like and trust him more, not less.

Well the alternatives are "lie to Asuma about who Hazou is", which... hahaha, or "leave it out, don't try to get Asuma to understand us", in which case we're back where we started.

Besides, I think the framing of the conversation ("You want to understand how I think? Okay, feel free to discuss how I think with me.") precludes him getting mad at us for not thinking the same way as him. That we don't, and want to bridge the gap, is the point.

Orisha91 · Jun 8, 2021

Okay, I completely scrapped mentioning the Final Gift Program. It was overkill. What Arikada wants is a back-channel to Orochimaru. Don't even really need to mention Ami that much or get her input. We know enough to get the ball rolling.

Also, this gets Leaf access to Isan's medical establishment and controls her development through Arikada, who will be willing to go along with us if he can get indirect access to Orochimaru.

We also get protections in place for the outcasts by using them Isan's view of them as test dummies and an easily expendable population Isan doesn't care about. The culture is conservative, and if there's an element they can use to distance themselves from risk, they should have little problems with it. that they'll just happen to be useful in the long-term should get them some sympathy from the broader society and soften it.

Here are the changes I made.

Orisha91 said:
Action plan prep:
Exploit Arikada's jealousy of Kabuto, by using Kei as an alternative back-channel to Orochimaru. Furthermore, use Arikada to secure the Outcasts religious/legal protections.

Ask Kon Ai for help in planning and improving Isan's medical infrastructure.

Kei can get the Nara can come up with the legalese for rights, protections, and obligations.

Consult Takahashi and Arikada. Have them ready to lean on Azai, Inoue, and Aida.

Action plan - Isan :

Ask Arikada about leaning on Azai to develop Isan's poor medical infrastructure along Leaf's standards. This would get the SSSSS an insider's view and coordination regarding medical research developments of Leaf and Orochimaru.

Might be expensive.

And there is a risk of running afoul of religious barriers or reluctance to experiment.

The solution might be found in the Outcasts there.

Isan's leadership would benefit if it allowed Noburi or Arikada the right to cultivate competent outcasts as potential med-nin in-training or support. Consider it an act towards holy redemption and purification for the good of Isan at little cost.

If they could be further trained under the tutelage and protection of the SSSSS, they could provide med-nin and assistants.

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
Ami

Discuss Dragonwar Crisis. Hopefully the Condor Scout will inform the others, but that could take weeks.

Keiko's mission is classified, don't talk about it. If Ami presses, offer to forward messages/gifts to Keiko.

What's Ami's take on the Bank Run? (Don't owe her a favor, let her be mysterious if necessary)

How is Ami doing? Been up to anything interesting?

Asuma

(Verify with Mari that this plan isn't suicidal, reputationally or literally)

Give invitation to follow up their previous conversation, whenever Asuma wants.

Asuma feels he cannot trust Hazou's motives. Hazou wants to elucidate them so Asuma can fully understand his actions.

If there's anything Asuma doesn't understand about Hazou, please ask so there's no doubt.

Leaf is more than a means to an end, its wellbeing is itself a goal since it's home to people Hazou loves/respects. A stronger Leaf means protecting them.

Hazou wants a warless world.

He's not unique, Jiraiya felt similarly, among other ninja, probably including Asuma.

Hazou doesn't know how to achieve this yet. He isn't completely naive - presently, kindness from Leaf would be taken advantage of by other villages, something he loathes.

Hazou wants clanless recognized.

Hazou grew up essentially clanless. He's seen how their lack of support disenfranchised them and undermined Mist's strength.

Asuma thanked Hazou for good ideas regarding clanless; they're more than ideas to Hazou. Even if he doesn't completely agree/understand, Asuma's proven he'll engage Hazou's ideology seriously.

Only other authority who did this was Jiraiya, and Hazou respects them both immensely for it.

Hazou wants civilian lives considered worthwhile.

Skyslider team is run by civilians, Gaku (a civilian) is vital to Goketsu's success, and Hazou can be frustrated with the world that they aren't seen as people sometimes.

It feels herculean, but seeing Leaf begin embracing clanless makes Hazou hopeful.

Asuma's paranoid side seemed to think Hazou benefited from disaster because he expected it, but it's more accurate to say Hazou has experienced failure so often that he's accustomed to doing effective damage control. (Humor): This conversation notwithstanding.

Intentionally hurting innocent lives for personal gain is antithetical to the world he wants to build. It's more than hypocrisy, it would actively set his goals back to use those methods.

Hazou does want Goketsu to prosper, if only to promote his beliefs, much like other clans. However, he doesn't want it to come at the expense of Leaf.

Thank Asuma for hearing Hazou out. Asuma doesn't have to be so considerate, and the fact that he is matters to Hazou.

This is all accurate on Hazou's views, but I don't think it actually solves the problem that Asuma's having. Asuma is mad because he can't predict in advance whether Hazou is going to turn around and be a treason dragon about something. Sometimes Hazou does helpful and cool things, and sometimes Hazou drops a nightmare scenario in his lap, and he's having trouble understanding why the latter case is occuring and how he can get Hazou to not do that. Normally, if a ninja was sometimes a really awful liability, he would be all "I'll execute you" until they get the message and cut it out, but that doesn't work in Hazou's case because Hazou can't predict whether something is going to really obviously hurt Asuma's position either.

The only way Asuma can know what he can trust Hazou with, is if he understands where Hazou's bad ideas are coming from. And just telling him "I care about peace, clanless, and civilians" doesn't do that.

Sir Stompy · Jun 8, 2021

IMO Hazou's nightmare scenarios all come from him being power-hungry. Hazou wants power to effect change in the EN, so he commits treason and wrecks the Leaf economy. We want power to do good things, but if we were just ambitious for personal power our actions wouldn't look very different. This reason is why I feel this effort to convince Asuma is doomed. Hazou isn't going to stop doing shit like this.

Shrooms · Jun 8, 2021

MadScientist said:
This is all accurate on Hazou's views, but I don't think it actually solves the problem that Asuma's having.

Asuma explicitly said he didn't think Hazou cares about Leaf, he just wants to use it to create his vision of the world. Not to mention his paranoia spiel about suspecting Hazou appealing to the downtrodden as a method of gaining authority/power. He also, at least as far as I know, doesn't know why Hazou supposedly wants this better world, just that he does.

Since I think I know where you're going with this, I don't mind adding in how Hazou generates ideas too, I might do that later this evening

Sir Stompy said:
This reason is why I feel this effort to convince Asuma is doomed.

We're not trying to convince Asuma to do anything, though. He says that he doesn't know where he stands with Hazou, that he has an impression of who he is but he isn't sure, Hazou is simply elucidating what Asuma doesn't get

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
Asuma explicitly said he didn't think Hazou cares about Leaf, he just wants to use it to create his vision of the world. Not to mention his paranoia spiel about suspecting Hazou appealing to the downtrodden as a method of gaining authority/power. He also, at least as far as I know, doesn't know why Hazou supposedly wants this better world, just that he does.

Since I think I know where you're going with this, I don't mind adding in how Hazou generates ideas too, I might do that later this evening

The thing is, I don't think his Shikaku.jpg speech was actually his real suspicions. I think he was just trying to signal to Hazou that his incomprehensibility makes him very untrustworthy. Which. Fair.

I do put bits in my plan about how betraying Leaf is very Not Something Hazou Wants, but the main structure of my plan is designed to make Hazou less incomprehensible.

Values Dissonance: "When I said "everyone is precious", I meant "including the people you wouldn't immediately consider in-group", which may be tripping you up about my motives."
What Hazou's End-goals Might Look Like: "Leaf, but with better tech, and more public services, and people are less assholes."
Hazou's Planning Technique and Its Failure Modes: "I generate weird ideas and trust my advisors to have common sense in my stead. Things go bad if I forget to ask them or ask the wrong person."
Reasons for Risky Moves: "I feel immense emotional pressure to save everyone, and playing it safe means they die, so I feel I have to make risky plays."

I feel Asuma would get a lot more actionable information out of this explanation.

faflec · Jun 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
He also, at least as far as I know, doesn't know why Hazou supposedly wants this better world, just that he does.

It's because the voices in his head are telling him to make a better world.

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 8, 2021

Apologies if any of this has already been captured.

I think that given there is extra word count and this is a Velorien plan, spending a bit longer with Ami might be wise.

[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed

I've made some suggestions: new stuff is in blue, rephrases/reorganizations are in green. I think drawing lines between Hazo and Pain might be worthwhile (be explicit that Hazo won't spend one life to save another life, or even necessarily one person's freedom to save a life) and mentioning to Asuma that Hazo recognizes that he is Not Great at engaging with other ideologies - which is something Asuma can do and the reason Hazo's still alive - and needs to get better at this seems like a good cap on it.

Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed
Word Count: too many

Ami

Legitimately delighted to see you. We have a few things we'd like to bounce off of you if you have some time.

Be clear that we're not consenting to any favours/debt by nature of discussion.

Tone: conversation between like-minded individuals with convergent goals.

Discuss Dragonwar Crisis. Hopefully the Condor Scout will inform the others, but that could take weeks.

Keiko's mission is classified, don't talk about it. If Ami presses, offer to forward messages/gifts to Keiko.

What's Ami's take on the Bank Run? (Don't owe her a favor, let her be mysterious if necessary.)

How is Ami doing? Been up to anything interesting?

Asuma

(Verify with Mari that this plan isn't suicidal or stupid.)

Extend invitation to follow up on their previous conversation, whenever Asuma wants.

Asuma feels he cannot trust Hazou's motives. Hazou wants to elucidate them so Asuma can fully understand his actions.

If there's anything Asuma doesn't understand about Hazou, please ask. He wants to be intelligible.

Leaf is the most expedient tool for Uplift, but it's more than that. Leaf is people more than a place - people Hazou loves/respects. A stronger Leaf means protecting them.

Hazou wants a world without war.

He's not unique, Jiraiya felt similarly, among other ninja, probably including Asuma.

Hazou doesn't know how to achieve this yet. He isn't completely naive - presently, kindness from Leaf would be taken advantage of by other villages, something he loathes.

He wants a world where people can live their lives happy and free. Methods of eliminating war which come at the cost of that happiness/freedom don't work for him.

Hazou wants clanless recognized.

Hazou grew up essentially clanless. He's seen how their lack of support disenfranchised them and made Mist weaker.

Asuma thanked Hazou for good ideas regarding clanless; for Hazo, it's about more than just good ideas. Anything which helps the clanless helps the Leaf and the world.

Hazou wants civilian lives considered worthwhile.

Skyslider team is run by civilians, Gaku (a civilian) is vital to Goketsu's success, civilians are essential to Leaf. Hazou can be frustrated with a world that often treats them as if they're subhuman or their lives are without value.

Leaf already does a better job of this than most places, but many still consider civilian lives worth less than an inconvenience to a ninja.

Asuma's paranoid side seemed to think Hazou benefited from disaster because capitalized on it effectively.

Hazo has experienced a tremendous amount of failure. He's used to doing damage control. (Humor): e.g., this conversation.

Hurting people for personal gain, even if they oppose him, is antithetical to the world he wants to build. It's not just about hypocrisy - you can't build lasting peace on that sort of foundation.

Hazo understands that violence is often necessary, but whether it's necessary isn't his call to make. He isn't a pacifist, but he knows his limitations.

Hazou does want Goketsu to prosper. However, if Goketsu profits as the expense of Leaf, then Goketsu didn't really profit. He legitimately believes he can't achieve his ultimate goals by pushing others down, no matter who they are.

Asuma is one of a very few people who engages with Hazou's ideology seriously even when he disagrees.

Hazo needs to build this skill.

Hazo immensely respects and appreciates this.

Asuma doesn't have to do any of this - logically, it might make more sense to killbox Hazo.

Tentatively, Hazo would say putting faith in people is one of Asuma's core beliefs.

Hazo hopes he can say he shares this belief with Asuma, and appreciates everything Asuma has done for him.

ContextBot · Jun 8, 2021

MadScientist said:
Hazou's Planning Technique and Its Failure Modes: "I generate weird ideas and trust my advisors to have common sense in my stead. Things go bad if I forget to ask them or ask the wrong person."

"I am crazy and need other people to tell me what's right and what's wrong" , that will make him very confident in our ability to be part of his leadership.

Tua said:
I believe something like this backfired once before. It was about trade with non-Leaf nations and Asuma got angry at Hazou because Asuma doesn't like Cloud (or was it Rock? Doesn't really matter for the point). And under your list and under what we know Hazou thinks, this point will get brought up again in such a discussion.

Both villages and then Mari told us to stay out of Leaf for a few weeks, that was when we were trying to find the Porcupine scroll.

@Shrooms , Maybe we can ask Ami what's going on with our Mist alliance?

eaglejarl said:
"The connection to Isan? If we can pull it off, that's several hundred more allied ninja set up as a buffer between us and Mist. Pretty big win.

Because this sounds like a fun new problem.

Also, the Holy month is over, let's hope nothing important will happen anytime soon:

Velorien said:
"Thank you," Snowflake said. "I will be certain to convey it with all haste."

"Do," Yoshida said. "There may not be much time before matters become… complicated."

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

ContextBot said:
"I am crazy and need other people to tell me what's right and what's wrong" , that will make him very confident in our ability to be part of his leadership.

More like "Sometimes my ideas are brilliant and sometimes they're terrible, and it tends to be more obvious which is which from the outside."

I'm open to changing the wording if people think it's unclear.

Sir Stompy · Jun 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
Asuma explicitly said he didn't think Hazou cares about Leaf, he just wants to use it to create his vision of the world. Not to mention his paranoia spiel about suspecting Hazou appealing to the downtrodden as a method of gaining authority/power. He also, at least as far as I know, doesn't know why Hazou supposedly wants this better world, just that he does.

Since I think I know where you're going with this, I don't mind adding in how Hazou generates ideas too, I might do that later this evening

We're not trying to convince Asuma to do anything, though. He says that he doesn't know where he stands with Hazou, that he has an impression of who he is but he isn't sure, Hazou is simply elucidating what Asuma doesn't get

We are trying to convince Asuma that our goals are aligned enough that Hazou isn't a traitor for acting the way he does. I think there's a sizable chance, enough of one that I'm not a fan of these plans, that we will fail to convince Asuma of this. He might not kill us on the spot, but we'd fall considerably in his estimation.

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

MadScientist said:
This is all accurate on Hazou's views, but I don't think it actually solves the problem that Asuma's having. Asuma is mad because he can't predict in advance whether Hazou is going to turn around and be a treason dragon about something. Sometimes Hazou does helpful and cool things, and sometimes Hazou drops a nightmare scenario in his lap, and he's having trouble understanding why the latter case is occuring and how he can get Hazou to not do that. Normally, if a ninja was sometimes a really awful liability, he would be all "I'll execute you" until they get the message and cut it out, but that doesn't work in Hazou's case because Hazou can't predict whether something is going to really obviously hurt Asuma's position either.

The only way Asuma can know what he can trust Hazou with, is if he understands where Hazou's bad ideas are coming from. And just telling him "I care about peace, clanless, and civilians" doesn't do that.

PSA that EJ insightful'd this.

faflec · Jun 8, 2021

...you know what would be bad? If we pointed out that we bounce ideas off of people, and Asuma made the connection to us bouncing off contacting Akatsuki to us telling (and getting approval from) the rest of the clan.

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

faflec said:
...you know what would be bad? If we pointed out that we bounce ideas off of people, and Asuma made the connection to us bouncing off contacting Akatsuki to us telling (and getting approval from) the rest of the clan.

I mean, I explicitly point out "not sanity-checking with Hazou's advisors" as one of the main ways things go wrong. So he could just chalk it up to that.

faflec · Jun 8, 2021

MadScientist said:
I mean, I explicitly point out "not sanity-checking with Hazou's advisors" as one of the main ways things go wrong. So he could just chalk it up to that.

This would require us to successfully deceive Asuma.

roobee · Jun 8, 2021

Does asuma have any idea how we contacted akatsuki? Cuz if he know it was via 7path and that hazou wasn't a summoner

MadScientist · Jun 8, 2021

faflec said:
This would require us to successfully deceive Asuma.

Would it, though? Sure if the topic was verbally brought up, and Asuma asked us directly whether the others know, but I don't think he would arrive at that conclusion from what we're telling him?

ContextBot · Jun 8, 2021

faflec said:
...you know what would be bad? If we pointed out that we bounce ideas off of people, and Asuma made the connection to us bouncing off contacting Akatsuki to us telling (and getting approval from) the rest of the clan.

He knows:

Velorien said:
"Fourthly and finally, a very expensive granite tablet, engraved with an affidavit from Pantsā himself to the effect that the Pangolin Clan has no knowledge of any letters sent or received by the Gōketsu Clan on the Seventh Path.

He just blames Hazou and probably Mari.

Kiba · Jun 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
Very beefy plan, but I kinda think it's worth the XP penalty to be explicit to Asuma about what it actually is Hazou wants. This conversation may be better saved for later but I thought I might as well post it now so it can be refined down the line if necessary.

[X] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed
Word Count: 420

Ami

Discuss Dragonwar Crisis. Hopefully the Condor Scout will inform the others, but that could take weeks.

Keiko's mission is classified, don't talk about it. If Ami presses, offer to forward messages/gifts to Keiko.

What's Ami's take on the Bank Run? (Don't owe her a favor, let her be mysterious if necessary)

How is Ami doing? Been up to anything interesting?

Asuma

(Verify with Mari that this plan isn't suicidal, reputationally or literally)

Give invitation to follow up their previous conversation, whenever Asuma wants.

Asuma feels he cannot trust Hazou's motives. Hazou wants to elucidate them so Asuma can fully understand his actions.

If there's anything Asuma doesn't understand about Hazou, please ask so there's no doubt.

Leaf is more than a means to an end, its wellbeing is itself a goal since it's home to people Hazou loves/respects. A stronger Leaf means protecting them.

Hazou wants a warless world.

He's not unique, Jiraiya felt similarly, among other ninja, probably including Asuma.

Hazou doesn't know how to achieve this yet. He isn't completely naive - presently, kindness from Leaf would be taken advantage of by other villages, something he loathes.

Hazou wants clanless recognized.

Hazou grew up essentially clanless. He's seen how their lack of support disenfranchised them and undermined Mist's strength.

Asuma thanked Hazou for good ideas regarding clanless; they're more than ideas to Hazou. Even if he doesn't completely agree/understand, Asuma's proven he'll engage Hazou's ideology seriously.

Only other authority who did this was Jiraiya, and Hazou respects them both immensely for it.

Hazou wants civilian lives considered worthwhile.

Skyslider team is run by civilians, Gaku (a civilian) is vital to Goketsu's success, and Hazou can be frustrated with the world that they aren't seen as people sometimes.

It feels herculean, but seeing Leaf begin embracing clanless makes Hazou hopeful.

Asuma's paranoid side seemed to think Hazou benefited from disaster because he expected it, but it's more accurate to say Hazou has experienced failure so often that he's accustomed to doing effective damage control. (Humor): This conversation notwithstanding.

Intentionally hurting innocent lives for personal gain is antithetical to the world he wants to build. It's more than hypocrisy, it would actively set his goals back to use those methods.

Hazou does want Goketsu to prosper, if only to promote his beliefs, much like other clans. However, he doesn't want it to come at the expense of Leaf.

Thank Asuma for hearing Hazou out. Asuma doesn't have to be so considerate, and the fact that he is matters to Hazou.

Don't forget to make sure you didn't commit a treason by talking about the Dragon war. Also, we can talk to more than Mari, but also Keiko and Akane.

Emphasize skyslider team's ingenuity(Hazo's wild ideas about siding were just babies, the skyslider did all the hard thinking and work) and Gaku's organizational skills. Hazo just provide them the resources, education, and freedom to achieve their goals.

I would say that Hazo doesn't like disasters and fraught situation. It sets back progress.

Moreover, Hazo doesn't favor risky plays, but he's forced to make them in fraught situations in order to win at all. Hazo's good at improvisation, not strategic chessmaster plans.

The Rock camp was a surprise.

faflec · Jun 8, 2021

You ever get the weird feeling that the doom fortress Kagome got sent to hack into was fucked up because the dumb stinkers tried to make their own summoning scroll and it went horribly sideways?

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

鸡肉面条汤