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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
Would less loyalty among clanless ninja be such a major weakness such that Asuma could not justify the expenditure of resources to improve it? I'm...not certain it is the case.
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faflec said:
Hazou's a...unique case, his family was driven out and actively attacked due to having "betrayed" the clan. How much of their life was due to having no clan support and how much of that was due to a clan actively attacking them...*shrugs*
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Remember that we're not here to convince Asuma to take any action, we're here to elucidate how Hazou thinks so Asuma can anticipate him better. Asuma can disagree with Hazou's conclusions, that's fine

faflec said:
Perhaps emphasize how Hazou did all that under his moral system of helping the people that need the most help, those that he can help, and those who others aren't. Dunno how to make that non-accusatory, though, and we do want to avoid barbing Asuma.
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Hmm, I'm not entirely sure either and I'm getting kinda sleepy :p
If anyone has a good suggestion, hopefully I wake up in time to implement it
 
Orisha91 said:
Here's a plan. Think I'll make a non-Isan plan dealing with the current situation.

[X] Action Plan (Isan): Selling Snake Societies
Word Count: 281

Prep:
  • Welcome, Ami.
  • If possible, summon up some puppies.
  • Inquire about her whereabouts and well-being.
Action plan: Snowflake mentioned Ami cooperates with Orochimaru's on projects to Arikada. Coupled with Arikada's jealousy of Kabuto, this leaves Ami in an envious position as an alternative to Kabuto and a back-channel to Orochimaru. Exploit it ruthlessly.
  • Bring Ami on board in subverting Isan leadership through Arikada's interests.
  • Entice him with the knowledge that Ami has Senju Tsunade's and Orochimaru's favor through her idea of the Final Gift Program.
    • Unfortunately, Isan's medical infrastructure is quite lacking and can imitate that program.
    • And there is a risk of running afoul of religious and traditional barriers.
  • The solution might be found in the Outcasts there.
    • If they could be trained under the tutelage and protection of the SSSSS, they could provide manpower to sidestep this issue of directly involving proper Isan folk, allowing medical development to speed along.
    • This would keep the SSSSS more aligned with the research developments of Leaf and in turn, Orochimaru.
  • The current leadership should be persuaded into allowing Arikada the right to coaxing competent outcasts into an avenue of redemption and productivity for Isan.
Contingencies:
  • Arikada is incentivized to keep his charges protected since he wants influence to catch Orochimaru's notice.
    • A good base of operations, resources, and religiously bound staff helps with that.
  • Azai can bolster his first foreign ally while using a problem population for Isan's progress.
  • Leaf benefits by extending her influence and guidance to Isan through its healthcare.
    • As well as guide Isan's development.
  • Sanity check with clan and Isan team first before implementation.
  • Visit Final Gift Program participants to calibrate and adjust to Uplift standards.
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put everithing in hypoteticals:
Ami: if a target of yours idolizes Orochimaru the way a normal ninja idolizes Tsunade how would you go about subverting them for your nefarious purposes without Having said sanin in your roster?

also, entice him that leaf, Has orochimaru and the final gift program, Ami or mist should not to be mentioned.

isan at large hates anything gory and biosealing is very much gore itself, i would thing that teaching the outcast healing jutsu is a better alternative, and once those ninja can do the bare minimum they will have some modicum of power in isan itself. also framing healing as a divine gift from the Keiko can do wonders to both ensure people that we only want the best from isan by giving it a free "secret" ability, entice them to what leaf has to offer and ensure our position as a symbol of positive change.
 
Shrooms said:
Ami is a Mist ninja; sharing information about a delicate Leaf operation with her does not seem like a good idea unless Asuma explicitly says we can, and honestly even asking him about it seems pretty risky imo
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I considered it but I was surprised Snowflake blurted out Ami's involvement with Orochimaru. Trying to deliver on that relationship implied she would get them in touch.
I figured that Asuma would be aware of that in the Isan report.
 
[X] Action Plan (Isan): your faith has healed you
Word Count: i will iron it out in the morning.

Ami:
  • Welcome, Ami.
  • Apocalypse?, what Dragons?
  • say, if you were to subvert a target that idolizes Oro the way a sane ninja idolizes Tsunade how would you go about it?
Isan:
  • sanity check whit the team
  • Nobury: do you feel capable of teaching some complete amateurs the very basics of medic ninjutsu?
  • Mari: make profiles of the outcast, capabilities, story and opinion of us.
  • keiko: talk to Arikada about how LEAF could be interested in associating whit a biosealmaster of his caliber, orochimaru has more time now thanks to the final gift project and the Socity of exesive Ss could partake in the abundance of open minds and test subjects.
  • shikamaru: how did the complate subjugation of the spirit of the deal go?
  • Kagome: thoughts on the proposal?, the scroll is in a strange facility, is that a sealing school/sweet shoop?
 
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@Eisenhelm @Shrooms

I've removed any mention about Isan to Ami.
Also removed mentioning Ami's name to Arikada again and minimized her role. Kei will be the only proxy Arikada can go through.

Orisha91 said:
Snowflake mentioned Ami's relationship with Orochimaru to Arikada. Coupled with Arikada's jealousy of Kabuto, this leaves Kei as a proxy for Ami, who is in an envious position as an alternative to Kabuto and a back-channel to Orochimaru. Exploit this ruthlessly.
  • Entice Arikada into following Orochimaru's participation in the Leaf's Final Gift Program.
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Really busy, should probably be asleep, but I have a couple thoughts while I'm here:
  • Another as-of-yet unstated reason to scrap the Rock mission is that our goal of yoinking the Arachnid Scroll was predicated on said Scroll being ownerless and abandoned. If Rock has a busy facility set up in the same place the Scroll is meant to be then it's either evaded their notice all this time (and thus we won't be able to find it quickly) or they already found it and took it somewhere else to train up a Summoner. In either case we would not expect success like we might if it was abandoned.
  • With all the ruckus about the sealmasters and the fact that it's not classified, odds are Ami's already aware of the dragonwar to some extent (possibly as low as 'there's something getting all of Leaf's sealmasters worked up right after you got hospitalized' and possibly as high as 'I had a chat with one of the sealmasters and they told me everything') and we should approach our Ami interactions accordingly by asking how much of the situation she already knows, paying respect to her agency and resourcefulness as well as simplifying the conversation by letting her tell us where to start filling her in.
 
I am def on team wait till the Isan mission wraps up before we try to grab the scroll. But when we get the full team back this is the exact level of challenge we should try for. Odds are their won't be more than one jounin there so we will be able to bring superior fire power to either take it on with a heavy assault strat since we have the triple S (Seals, Shadow Clones and, Summons) or do a slow stealth engagement
 
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[] Action Plan: The Machinations of Hazou's Mind, Revealed

But I'll also propose a version more in line with my original suggestion:

[X] Action Plan: Reaching Understanding
Wordcount: 529
  1. Ami
    1. Entertain Ami with the story of what's been happening in regards to Dragons, Arachnids, and Hazou Almost Dying Again.
    2. How has her week been? Let her enjoy showing off her latest shenanigans.
  2. Asuma
    1. Sanity check with Mari.
    2. Asuma claims that he's having trouble understanding and predicting Hazou's thinking, which makes it hard to trust us because he can't tell when we'll be an Asset vs a Liability. Not being understood or trusted by the kage is obviously a huge problem, but that seems solvable by discussing the matter. Hazou invites Asuma to discuss (non-secret) topics with him to better understand him and his worldview.
    3. Possible lines of discussion include:
      1. Hazou's core ideology is to improve as much quality of life as possible, as quickly as possible, for anyone that could be reasonably defined as a person.
        1. Including but not limited to: Clan ninja, Clanless Ninja, Civilians, Seventh Pathians, etc.
        2. If it has feelings, those feelings matter.
        3. Yes, Hazou is feeling extremely miserable over the Condors, and Sunset Racer. He's using the memories as motivation to make sure this kind of thing stops happening.
        4. Leaf is comparatively good on this front, since clanless have representation now, and civilians have some measure of legal protection from ninja abuse.
        5. A large part of the fight with Hagoromo was because Hagoromo was trying to ensure that a group which already faces social ostracisation and lack of protection against discrimination "stays down". Maintaining opression of opressed groups is antithetical to Hazou's values.
        6. Abusing Leaf's trust and running wouldn't just be hypocrisy, it would actively make it harder to create the world Hazou wants to create.
      2. The way Hazou wants to achieve this is through permanent improvement from technological innovations — especially medical and civilian technologies such as the sewer/aqueduct, societal institutions to create social safety nets and public utilities, and shifts in public perspective towards peaceful and compassionate sentiments.
        1. Going from Clan Head to Missing Nin would be a huge leap backwards in terms of ability to enact progress here.
      3. Hazou does have problems not understanding when something would be dumb or treason. It's one of the core in-jokes of team uplift that most of his ideas are obvious junk to anyone else. Hazou's planning process is to generate lots of weird ideas and then run them past advisors and sanity-checkers. When such people aren't available, when Hazou mistakes someone as understanding that this is how his planning operates and he wanted their help screening his ideas, or when he leaps into an idea and forgets to ask people with more common sense what their thoughts are, is when problems can arise.
      4. Hazou feels he is being forced to gamble with the safety, health, and happiness of literally everyone at all times, and that small bets result in most people being in harms way or miserable even if he wins. The only way to save everyone is to always make risky plays. It's a horrible situation, and may explain the "Hazou does Wacky Shenanigans" phenomenon Asuma's getting headaches from.
        1. Hidan's card game springs to mind as a metaphor.
    4. We will talk to the other clan heads about their worldviews, since Asuma correctly suggested we have a problem with disregarding them. In the meantime, is there anything he'd like us to understand about him?
 
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MadScientist said:
Hazou's core ideology is to end as much misery as possible, as quickly as possible, as experienced by anyone that could be reasonably defined as a person.
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-insert commentary about killing everyone ends all their misery forever-

In all seriousness, could you change this to improving their QOL instead?
MadScientist said:
A large part of the fight with Hagoromo was because he was trying to ensure that a group which already faces social ostracisation and lack of protection against discrimination "stays down".
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I think you got the "stays down" part wrong reversed: we wanted to lift LGBTQ people up and the Hagoromo down.

FAKEDIT: Oh, he refers to Hagoromo! Sorry, that wasn't clear to me, could you change that for clarity?
MadScientist said:
Hidan's card game springs to mind as a metaphor.
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Wasn't the card game thing Hidan's idea? I know it makes sense as a literal "gamble with people's lives", but in terms of "Hazou chooses to take risk with people's lives" it kinda...*shrugs*
MadScientist said:
We will talk to the other clan heads about their worldviews, since Asuma suggested we had a problem with disregarding them. In the meantime, is there anything he'd like us to understand about him?
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It should be more that us talking to them because Asuma suggested it; acknowledging that he's right that we do this should be key.
 
I doubt Asuma wants to hear an explanation, especially a long one. If we were to show up with some good news and then said a few things then maybe. Right now he is probably more interested in results rather than some talking.

In one chapter Hazou went and told Naruto directly whats up (Chapter 343) and wanted them to work together again. He didn't seem to really care, because he hasn't even tried to contact us since then.

Just because Asuma is a generally friendly reasonable boss doesn't mean we should "waste" his time like this.
 
faflec said:
-insert commentary about killing everyone ends all their misery forever-

In all seriousness, could you change this to improving their QOL instead?

I think you got the "stays down" part wrong reversed: we wanted to lift LGBTQ people up and the Hagoromo down.

FAKEDIT: Oh, he refers to Hagoromo! Sorry, that wasn't clear to me, could you change that for clarity?

Wasn't the card game thing Hidan's idea? I know it makes sense as a literal "gamble with people's lives", but in terms of "Hazou chooses to take risk with people's lives" it kinda...*shrugs*

It should be more that us talking to them because Asuma suggested it; acknowledging that he's right that we do this should be key.
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Done, Done, I think it works because the deathworld is forcing Hazou to gamble with it, and Done.
 
ContextBot said:
I doubt Asuma wants to hear an explanation, especially a long one. If we were to show up with some good news and then said a few things then maybe. Right now he is probably more interested in results rather than some talking.

In one chapter Hazou went and told Naruto directly whats up (Chapter 343) and wanted them to work together again. He didn't seem to really care, because he hasn't even tried to contact us since then.

Just because Asuma is a generally friendly reasonable boss doesn't mean we should "waste" his time like this.
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Yet more results aren't going to help him understand and predict us. That's the reason he's pissed, not that we haven't done enough things for him.
 
MadScientist said:
Yet more results aren't going to help him understand and predict us. That's the reason he's pissed, not that we haven't done enough things for him.
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Even if you're right, that doesn't mean he wants to hear that right now and it's always better to have some good news when annoying the boss.

But I think you're taking this a bit to literal, him being pissed that he doesn't understand Hazou would be kind of a strange complain. Him not getting why Hazou disregards so many common sense rules (don't contact Akatsuki, don't start clan wars, etc) makes a lot more sense on the other hand.



@Shrooms ,
As for the one Isan plan we have, blessing Yuno with the Pangolin sounds exactly like the one time we wanted to marry Yuno and Noburi with Toadism, probably not going to work. Also, Keiko is Akio's heir not Ui's:
eaglejarl said:
The Pangolin Summoner acknowledges the Yoshida Clan as an ally. She will abandon all claim of authority over the Yoshida Clan stemming from her position as Akio's heir.
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ContextBot said:
Even if you're right, that doesn't mean he wants to hear that right now and it's always better to have some good news when annoying the boss.

But I think you're taking this a bit to literal, him being pissed that he doesn't understand Hazou would be kind of a strange complain. Him not getting why Hazou disregards so many common sense rules (don't contact Akatsuki, don't start clan wars, etc) makes a lot more sense on the other hand.



@Shrooms ,
As for the one Isan plan we have, blessing Yuno with the Pangolin sounds exactly like the one time we wanted to marry Yuno and Noburi with Toadism, probably not going to work. Also, Keiko is Akio's heir not Ui's:
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This is hardly "annoying the boss". We're inviting him to have this discussion, he can just decline or put it off if he doesn't want to talk with us right now.
 
[X] Action Plan: Reaching Understanding
MadScientist said:
when Hazou mistakes someone as understanding that this is how his planning operates and he wanted their help screening his ideas (Naruto)
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I... don't think Naruto informed anyone else about that particular blunder. If he did, I would've expected Asuma to bring it up last chapter.
Shrooms said:
Hazou won't be deceptive about who he is. He's seen how this destroys a person firsthand.
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I suggest cutting this. It'll compromise Mari's ability to efficiently play politics if the extent of her issues becomes widely known, and this here is a pretty clear hint about them.
 
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Noumero said:
[X] Action Plan: Reaching Understanding

I... don't think Naruto informed anyone else about that particular blunder. If he did, I would've expected Asuma to bring it up last chapter.

I suggest cutting this. It'll compromise Mari's ability to efficiently play politics if the extent of her issues becomes widely known, and this here is a pretty clear hint about them.
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I'd assumed that going to Asuma and explaining it would have been one of his first moves after the collapse, but I can remove his name?
 
Noumero said:
I suggest cutting this. It'll compromise Mari's ability to efficiently play politics if the extent of her issues becomes widely known, and this here is a pretty clear hint about them
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I was thinking more about Mari being heartbreaker in Mist. Remember, Hazou doesn't actually know how bad it's gotten.

That said, it's not a super necessary line so i don't mind cutting it
 
MadScientist said:
I'd assumed that going to Asuma and explaining it would have been one of his first moves after the collapse, but I can remove his name?
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I don't remember Asuma bringing it up at any point, and I would've expected him to. Naruto had specifically said he'll "forget he ever heard any of this, instead of [reporting it to Hiashi]", so I assume he just extended that to Asuma.
Shrooms said:
I was thinking more about Mari being heartbreaker in Mist. Remember, Hazou doesn't actually know how bad it's gotten.
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I don't think any of her struggles with identity are publicly known, not even that she differentiates/tries to differentiate herself from the Heartbreaker.
 
More Ami screentime. @MadScientist, I'm not sure Asuma knows about Hazou and the Sunset Racer. If not, then mentioning it might be a bad idea...
 
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