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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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JustForThis said:
I think it's more likely that the tripwire is made, then breaks, and a part of the seal registers that.

Coming at it from the other side, if the seal works like coding and there's simply an /end statement to remove, when originally creating the seal wouldn't it have been both easier and more effective to not add in that /end statement.
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Well, it was ostensibly intended to be a tripwire for generally one use (read: explosives) so having an end function might've been important for deactivating traps when they wanted to break camp/open the door they had trapped/etc.

Obviously I don't know, and it's QM fiat to decide what the TN should be, but to modify a seal to go 'that thing you're already designed to do, keep doing that, don't stop' seems on the simple end of modifications.

Similarly, PMYF was telling a storage seal to seal/unseal more things in the way it was already designed - but it could've had a much higher TN if the QMs decided we were actually trying to create multiple pocket dimensions coded in series and a mini chakrAI that was keeping track of the order things were sealed and unsealed with the ability to sort through the pocket dimensions and use a chakra eye to identify their contents to ensure the order of sealing/unsealing matched up.
 
Ipsos Custodes said:
Similarly, PMYF was telling a storage seal to seal/unseal more things in the way it was already designed - but it could've had a much higher TN if the QMs decided we were actually trying to create multiple pocket dimensions coded in series and a mini chakrAI that was keeping track of the order things were sealed and unsealed with the ability to sort through the pocket dimensions and use a chakra eye to identify their contents to ensure the order of sealing/unsealing matched up.
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Point of order: PMYF seals do not store multiple items. They simply unstore after a delay (set at creation time) instead of immediately when activated.

This allows us to activate the seal and then throw it somewhere (usually attached to a kunai), where it will pop out a <whatever> that we can Substitute with, replicating the Fourth Hokage's Flying Thunder God - hence the name: Poor Man's Yellow Flash.
 
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Shadowwarp said:
I don't really know how different it is in MfD, but in canon Naruto it was specially treated metal that allowed you to easily flow chakra through it, significantly enhancing power and durability. Asuma for example had two chakra condusctive trench knives, he could slice through or block most thing with no problem, run enough energy through it and you could even encase the blades in big energy blades that extended the knives' reach and power sort of like the moonlight greatswprd in Bloodeborne. You can also flow elemental chakra for different affects, wind to improve cutting power, fire for a lit up flame sword, etc.

If Hazo had conductive metal gauntlets and they worked like canon, he could probably turn them into enlarged, chakra constructed claws that could slice/rip and tear throigh practically anything with ease.

It should be noted that Keiko said it was hard to get or commission chakra conductive weapons and that most that are still around are inherited.
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So the setting has ninja lightsabers, and to keep them from being everywhere inexplicably says that they're rare because mumble mumble reasons.

I shouldn't really be surprised. I am, but I shouldn't be.

Kishimoto, I'm sure you thought inherited ninja lightsabers were cool that one time, but if it's possible to make them then everyone would have them regardless of how much of a pain they are to make. They're just too much of an advantage to not be cranking the things out. Especially since they apparently last for generations. Stop making the QM's lives difficult with this setting bullshit already. Now they're going to have to come up with some sort of a cogent reason for the things to be rare and nearly impossible to produce and it's all your fault.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
So the setting has ninja lightsabers, and to keep them from being everywhere inexplicably says that they're rare because mumble mumble reasons.

I shouldn't really be surprised. I am, but I shouldn't be.

Kishimoto, I'm sure you thought inherited ninja lightsabers were cool that one time, but if it's possible to make them then everyone would have them regardless of how much of a pain they are to make. They're just too much of an advantage to not be cranking the things out. Especially since they apparently last for generations. Stop making the QM's lives difficult with this setting bullshit already. Now they're going to have to come up with some sort of a cogent reason for the things to be rare and nearly impossible to produce and it's all your fault.
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I believe there is a much shorter and more convenient way to put this:
DYK :p
 
TaliesinSkye said:
So the setting has ninja lightsabers, and to keep them from being everywhere inexplicably says that they're rare because mumble mumble reasons.

I shouldn't really be surprised. I am, but I shouldn't be.

Kishimoto, I'm sure you thought inherited ninja lightsabers were cool that one time, but if it's possible to make them then everyone would have them regardless of how much of a pain they are to make. They're just too much of an advantage to not be cranking the things out. Especially since they apparently last for generations. Stop making the QM's lives difficult with this setting bullshit already. Now they're going to have to come up with some sort of a cogent reason for the things to be rare and nearly impossible to produce and it's all your fault.
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They do have an answer, though?

It's called HDK.
 
Ipsos Custodes said:
Why would we just take on R360,000,000 worth of debt (total after 15 years) when they already don't like the Hyuuga?

There has to a better middle ground.

Currently, they have about R168,500,000, assuming an interest rate of 12.5%. If it's 15% then it's closer to a principle of R150,000,000.

If we could refinance their loan at 9.2% for 20 years (rather than 12.5% for 15 years) then their monthly payments would be R1,498,000. Which would probably make them pretty happy to have payments reduced by 25% and be indebted to us rather than the Hyuga.

In order to do that in an economically sound way, we would need to take on their loan and pay off R43,000,000 to give them (now us) a principal of R125,500,000, making our monthly payments (to Hyuga) R1,493,000.

We currently have R10,000,000 in the bank right now. That's not enough. We could do it as part of a group loan with some other clans for the total R43,000,000.

If we did take it on entirely on our own, and paid R10,000,000 off the top of the principal, that would be monthly payments of R1,886,000 - we'd be on the hook for an additional R388,000 each month.

If we wanted to break closer to even, we could offer the Hagoromo terms of 12% for 17 years, making the monthly payments R1,871,000. Which is not a small discount, and we're still better people to be indebted to than the Hyuga.

Incidentally, if we paid the R10,000,000 off of the principal we currently owe then our mortgage payments would drop to R515,232 from R675,526, which might be something to consider doing since that's a nearly 25% reduction in payments.

We should probably do that in any case (minus an emergency chest) since the savings are better off of our mortgage than on the adopted Hagoromo debts if we adopt them (unless Hyuga are being usurious, see below).

If we took the R10,000,000 off the Goketsu mortgage, and adopted the Hagoromo debts, to break even we could offer them slightly better terms, such as 11.5% for 16 years for payments of R1,862,000.

Unfortunately, the real issue with these analyses is that we don't know the interest rate of the Hagoromo debts. Since the Hyuga are being portrayed as abusive jerks, and Jaraiya probably got much better terms, it's reasonable to believe they have the Hagoromo paying a much more usurious rate.

If it's something insane like 25%, then R10 million off the top of a R103 million principal turns their payments into 1,809,000. If it's 35% then the principal is R78 million and we can get the payments down to 1,741,000.

It may also be worth looking into getting a loan from ISC, Tsunade, or other. If we can get a decent rate and levy that loan to pay off the principals of the worse loans then we can actually make a profit by getting the loan.

So, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail how much is the Hagoromo principal and/or interest rate?
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HDK

TaliesinSkye said:
Kishimoto, I'm sure you thought inherited ninja lightsabers were cool that one time, but if it's possible to make them then everyone would have them regardless of how much of a pain they are to make. They're just too much of an advantage to not be cranking the things out. Especially since they apparently last for generations. Stop making the QM's lives difficult with this setting bullshit already. Now they're going to have to come up with some sort of a cogent reason for the things to be rare and nearly impossible to produce and it's all your fault.
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How about "because there is basically no chakra metal to be had for love or money"? You can't make weapons from a material you can't get.
 
eaglejarl said:
How about "because there is basically no chakra metal to be had for love or money"? You can't make weapons from a material you can't get.
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Yeah, making it some super rare element that only comes from fallen stars that were exposed to the Out for millennia before hitting the world or something is probably the best way to go. If it's some way of treating iron then there's no good way to get around it being everywhere.
 
The thread is moving to fast, I just finished Page 5936, so sorry if what I have to say is already mentioned.

[X] Action Plan: Clanless Interactions

Lailoken said:
The jounin was Mari in disguise cleaning up Kagome's mess. She had finished her job of deniably killing Minami and didn't want Hazou and Noburi dead.
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I'd normally be inclined to treat this as a joke, but my experience tells me not to. The theory implies that Mari was somehow able to spy on us from a huge distance. Hmmm

Lailoken said:
Why would I repeat myself? The GMs are the only ones who can consistently hear me.
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Nah, I hear you too.

Which just means something terribly is about to happen to me.

Lailoken said:
Waterfall, where the Whirlpool survivors evacuated to.
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When exactly did Whirlpool vanished? In Canon it was at Kushina's 7 years iirc, so it should be about 25 or more years ago

Lailoken said:
Remember that Leaf has its own Yakuza who undoubtedly don't want Hyuuga in charge any more than we do.
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We may play peacemakers between two. We're already on good terms with Mist yaks, let's achieve similar with Leaf's and then bring them together on neutral grounds to pitch yak-peace. Will need to go with @faflec idea of settings up communication channel with Mist via Ami.

Also, about good relations with Oyabun: I vaguely recall him failing a deception roll against Keiko regarding certain scroll. Did we ever investigated that? My read was that it had some kind of recording seal in it and he wanted to have scroll back to get the info on us discussing him with Jiraiya. Do we still have the scroll?
 
Ipsos Custodes said:
Why would we just take on R360,000,000 worth of debt (total after 15 years) when they already don't like the Hyuuga?

There has to a better middle ground.

Currently, they have about R168,500,000, assuming an interest rate of 12.5%. If it's 15% then it's closer to a principle of R150,000,000.

If we could refinance their loan at 9.2% for 20 years (rather than 12.5% for 15 years) then their monthly payments would be R1,498,000. Which would probably make them pretty happy to have payments reduced by 25% and be indebted to us rather than the Hyuga.

In order to do that in an economically sound way, we would need to take on their loan and pay off R43,000,000 to give them (now us) a principal of R125,500,000, making our monthly payments (to Hyuga) R1,493,000.

We currently have R10,000,000 in the bank right now. That's not enough. We could do it as part of a group loan with some other clans for the total R43,000,000.

If we did take it on entirely on our own, and paid R10,000,000 off the top of the principal, that would be monthly payments of R1,886,000 - we'd be on the hook for an additional R388,000 each month.

If we wanted to break closer to even, we could offer the Hagoromo terms of 12% for 17 years, making the monthly payments R1,871,000. Which is not a small discount, and we're still better people to be indebted to than the Hyuga.

Incidentally, if we paid the R10,000,000 off of the principal we currently owe then our mortgage payments would drop to R515,232 from R675,526, which might be something to consider doing since that's a nearly 25% reduction in payments.

We should probably do that in any case (minus an emergency chest) since the savings are better off of our mortgage than on the adopted Hagoromo debts if we adopt them (unless Hyuga are being usurious, see below).

If we took the R10,000,000 off the Goketsu mortgage, and adopted the Hagoromo debts, to break even we could offer them slightly better terms, such as 11.5% for 16 years for payments of R1,862,000.

Unfortunately, the real issue with these analyses is that we don't know the interest rate of the Hagoromo debts. Since the Hyuga are being portrayed as abusive jerks, and Jaraiya probably got much better terms, it's reasonable to believe they have the Hagoromo paying a much more usurious rate.

If it's something insane like 25%, then R10 million off the top of a R103 million principal turns their payments into 1,809,000. If it's 35% then the principal is R78 million and we can get the payments down to 1,741,000.

It may also be worth looking into getting a loan from ISC, Tsunade, or other. If we can get a decent rate and levy that loan to pay off the principals of the worse loans then we can actually make a profit by getting the loan.

So, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail how much is the Hagoromo principal and/or interest rate?
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Really good analysis. My number for the principal worked out to the same, assuming the same interest rate as our mortgage.

One option I support would be to get the allied clans together to buy out the loan to the Hyuga entirely, the Hagoromo essentially trading the one big Hyuga debt for a series of smaller ones according to whatever the other clans can afford, terms negotiable. If we can't get enough together to handle the likely principle your plan is more workable.
 
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TarzanNn said:
Also, about good relations with Oyabun: I vaguely recall him failing a deception roll against Keiko regarding certain scroll. Did we ever investigated that? My read was that it had some kind of recording seal in it and he wanted to have scroll back to get the info on us discussing him with Jiraiya. Do we still have the scroll?
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He wanted to know if we had the scroll. If we did, it meant we never gave the scroll to Jiraiya in the first place, so we and Jiraiya were either responsible or knew exactly what happened. Or both.
 
So, this maneuvering we are trying to do with acquiring the Hagoromo vote, and we have previously considered trying to secure the Uchiha vote, etc., ... Why isn't Shikamaru doing it for himself? He's demonstrably not an idiot, and he has the resources of a much larger and more established clan to use. Why isn't he, independently, playing kingmaker?
 
KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
So, this maneuvering we are trying to do with acquiring the Hagoromo vote, and we have previously considered trying to secure the Uchiha vote, etc., ... Why isn't Shikamaru doing it for himself? He's demonstrably not an idiot, and he has the resources of a much larger and more established clan to use. Why isn't he, independently, playing kingmaker?
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How do we know he isn't? For all we know he's engaging in a tug-of-war with Hiashi over the Inuzuka or something.
 
KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
So, this maneuvering we are trying to do with acquiring the Hagoromo vote, and we have previously considered trying to secure the Uchiha vote, etc., ... Why isn't Shikamaru doing it for himself? He's demonstrably not an idiot, and he has the resources of a much larger and more established clan to use. Why isn't he, independently, playing kingmaker?
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Presumably all of the clans are making moves behind the scenes. We need to sit down with the ones that are against Hiashi and get organized so we're not all acting independently. It doesn't have to be everyone in the room all at once, but we need to talk to everybody to compare notes and work out plans.
 
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KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
So, this maneuvering we are trying to do with acquiring the Hagoromo vote, and we have previously considered trying to secure the Uchiha vote, etc., ... Why isn't Shikamaru doing it for himself? He's demonstrably not an idiot, and he has the resources of a much larger and more established clan to use. Why isn't he, independently, playing kingmaker?
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Its also been like a week since we got back. Its entirely possible that in between the wedding he's had his own fires to put out.

Even if thats not quite the case, its still sorta understandable: Out of all groups here, both us and the Hyuuga are essentially holding guns to the other's forehead here--though they might not quite see it that way-- with everyone else motivated by secondary effects that would result from the process/conclusion of that standoff or related but less fundamentally galvanizing issues.
 
eaglejarl said:
Promoting them to special jōnin means that they are eligible for jōnin-rank missions but don't get the shinies.
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Huh. I'd have intuitively expected this to be the other way around. Special jōnin previously were always explained as being highly skilled in certain areas, but not well rounded enough or otherwise lacking in something to be promoted to full jōnin, with the command position that entails. This seems like a perfect excuse to promote some chūnin to the high income bracket in order to ensure loyalty, without having to justify doing so if the person isn't actually jōnin material.

As is, a promotion to special jōnin is actually a thinly veiled insult while at the same time not quite explaining how valuable single focus ninja become special jōnin. If that is even still a thing.
eaglejarl said:
"So they aren't motivated to join a clan," Mari said. "It involves giving up direct control of their income."
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Hmm. This being new to Mari means that Mist had a different system. Interesting. Would asking her about it cost you guys too many spoons?

The only thing we know right now is that in Mist a jōnin banished from her clan ended up with less than subsistence level. Maybe Hana's bonuses continued to directly flow to the Kurosawa instead.


@Rihaku
Rihaku said:
A jounin-grade seal is a seal that requires a jounin sealmaster to make
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eaglejarl said:
(Kagome is rated as a chūnin-grade sealmaster. Hazō is rated genin-grade. Getting upgraded is a process the details of which are firmly HDK for now.)
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What do you suppose is the point of the parenthesis then?
 
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Rafin said:
The only thing we know right now is that in Mist a jōnin banished from her clan ended up with less than subsistence level. Maybe Hana's bonuses continued to directly flow to the Kurosawa instead.
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It's because the Kurosawa cut off Hana from being able to take on diplomatic missions, which was her major field of specialty.
 
Solonarv said:
Point of order: PMYF seals do not store multiple items. They simply unstore after a delay (set at creation time) instead of immediately when activated.

This allows us to activate the seal and then throw it somewhere (usually attached to a kunai), where it will pop out a <whatever> that we can Substitute with, replicating the Fourth Hokage's Flying Thunder God - hence the name: Poor Man's Yellow Flash.
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My apologies, I don't know when we last saw them used in story. I think that I was thinking of v.2...which we never finished researching, but I don't think it was indicated to have too high a TN.

eaglejarl said:
HDK
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I think part of the next plan should be asking Mari how much the Hagoromo principal/ interest rate is, and if she doesn't know then directing her to find out.
 
faflec said:
It's because the Kurosawa cut off Hana from being able to take on diplomatic missions, which was her major field of specialty.
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So? She's still a jōnin, and probably better at any standard mission than a chūnin. If she were to live under Leaf style taxation laws as an independent jōnin she would be getting income well above subsistence level just by doing a fair amount of B-rank missions.
 
So, um...the interest rate's been set in stone, right? Like, we aren't going to be getting a 200% increase in interest after Hiashi finds out about this thing?
 
MMKII said:
HIASHI: My interest rates are whatever my interests rate!

HAGOROMO: FFFFFFFFFF
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Am pretty sure that no matter what we do, the Hyuga gets paid regardless.

But let us look at this from another angle: A clan that is controlled by another through debt slavery won't be able to make their own choice in their own eyes for who's the most qualified for hokage.
 
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