Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Kiba · May 10, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
But again, it isn't a matter of whether or not we decide to give Naruto power, it's a matter of how hard we claw power away from him. The Clan Head position of the Goketsu is rightfully Naruto's by Jiraiya's will, and we'd have to contest that to stay Clan Head ourselves.

Really, the only way for Hazou to stay Clan Head without all but ending Naruto's support for us is if we convince him to let us stay Clan Head despite Jiraiya's wishes. In all honesty, the appeal to the Uzumaki seat and the Hokage vote is the best we're going to get.

Is Naruto becoming the clan head such a big deal WRT agency as far as people are concerned?

Oneiros · May 10, 2019

Fun fact Jiraiya told us to sort out who was going to be clan head. Then decides that he'd give everything away in the span of 24 hours. Isn't the most rational decision I've ever seen

eaglejarl said:
Naruto makes it back, adopt him into the clan. The two of you can sort out who is going to be Clan Head, but he's the one you should put forward for Hokage when the time comes. He's got the popularity and the power, and he'll listen to you."

MadScientist · May 10, 2019

Evenstar said:
The question isn't about whether the Uzumaki are legitimate, it's about whether the Goketsu are legitimate.

We have QM confirmation that the Gouketsu are indeed legitimate, and will continue to be such. We've been declared a clan, and no clan wants to set a precedent that says you can take away a clan's clanship or clan rights.

Evenstar said:
Additionally, I would like to note that this means that Jaraiya knew that we might need every council seat we could get, and still advised us to adopt Naruto. Do you really think that the Uzumaki seat just slipped his mind?

I think it slipped the QM's minds. They're overworked and can't consider every detail. ...and the same is true for Jiraiya, for that matter. And for the reasons layed out by @MMKII, I believe Jiraiya was emotionally compromised on this topic. He wanted Naruto as family very strongly.

Inferno Vulpix · May 10, 2019

Updated with most of Rafin's wordcount optimizations, also added a line to the Naruto section expressing our concerns about Hiashi. Hopefully Hazou makes that work well.

Inferno Vulpix said:
We need to learn what happened in the BotG ASAP, and discussing potential adoptions can wait until Noburi's got his report ready. So instead I added a scene for intel-gathering (and maybe an emotional Chouza scene) and overhauled the Naruto section with our new information.

Wordcount: 336
[X] Action Plan: Growing Goketsu

We missed part of the Tsunade conversation due to Zabuza flashbacks. Sorry. Can you guys summarize for me?

Find out the full BotG story.

Look for official reports in the Tower.

Reach out to someone who was there, like Chouza.

This must be really hard on Chouza too, to lose teammates so close to him.

Ask if he'd like to work with us creating a memorial.

Clan Growth:

Even without Noburi's report, Akane and Tenten are shoe-ins.

If the others approve, suggest:

Akane's family:

All of Uplift available goes.

You're family already; the offer's always open.

Tenten:

Keiko goes alone.

We trust her judgement, and she knows Tenten best.

About Lee:

He's very talented and we should do right by Gai's memory.

Could we mitigate his difficult personality? Soundproofing, house rules, etc.?

Ask Kagome if he's willing to train new sealmasters, given they're worthy?

It's a great opportunity for many ninja. In exchange we can have them make us explosives.

Toad Scroll:

Noburi should have it.

Great chakra reserves, good social skills.

Ask Kabuto to ensure there aren't any problems?

Naruto:

Jiraiya's message to Naruto probably gives him the basics on the Goketsu and his position with it.

If he doesn't specify who he'd like to meet, bring Noburi, Keiko, and Akane.

We promised Jiraiya we'd support him. Be gentle and understanding.

Introduce ourselves. Offer condolences.

Answer any questions he has.

Let him read Jiraiya's will.

If he's willing and doesn't already know it, give a quick rundown of Team Uplift's story, how we became the Goketsu, and what we stand for.

Ask about the Uzumaki council seat and what'll happen when he's adopted.

Express our concerns about Hiashi and his animosity with the Goketsu.

If he doesn't already have a solution:

If we can vote in a Hokage favourable to us, we could convince them to rule that you wouldn't lose the Uzumaki seat.

Alternatively, we could simply bind the Uzumaki and Goketsu so close together that they're the same clan in all but name.

edit: also I'm going to be away for about an hour so I'll catch up on things when I get back.

Kiba · May 10, 2019

[X] Action Plan: Growing Goketsu

Sentient Tree · May 10, 2019

[X] Lore Update: Leaf Clan information

Rafin · May 10, 2019

Evenstar said:
I would much rather we adopt Naruto and thereby make Clan Goketsu the successor clan to the Uzumaki.

We can always do that later. I for one can see an argument being made in favor of not destroying the Uzumaki name. It too has history. More so than the Goketsu. Hell, maybe Naruto should adopt all of us.

Evenstar said:
Yeah, uh, since when has "lying to Naruto" ever turned out well for anybody in canon?

We're not lying. At worst we are a mix of snotty and slightly manipulative for using the Socratic Method.

No-one of Importance said:
Folding Naruto's Uzumaki seat into the Gouketsu Clan might have been part of an implicit political settlement that allowed the clan's creation or continued existence. Making a new seat on the council for Jiriaya by Hokage fiat is vote-stacking that threatens the continued relevance of the clan council through the precedent it sets but if Naruto joins as the heir of Gouketsu and loses his Uzumaki vote then they're almost dealing with the Uzumakis adopting some members if they squint. Given Jiriaya's relationship with Naruto it must have seemed very likely to all involved that Naruto would be adopted into the Gouketsu or die before rescue with little consideration of puppet-clan shenanigans.

Sure. In which case Jiraiya really blundered never telling us about that. We should ask Mari plus a trustworthy Leaf politician about that then. Before the adoption officially goes through. Maybe Shikamaru or Ino know, but Chouza definitely should.

Evenstar said:
"Status Quo" means "not Goketsu": as such, Inuzuka is likely against us.

This only matters if we are trying to elect Mari or something. Maybe if we officially adopt Naruto and announce that to everyone before he puts in his bid to become Hokage. But if Naruto remains an Uzumaki or we all vote for Chouza then this is not a problem.

Evenstar said:
And in this kind of situation, apparent weakness very quickly translates into actual weakness.

The simple truth is that we are weak right now. We are a clan of Mist missing-nin, formed by fiat through Jiraiya. The only things propping us up is an alliance with the Nara and the good will of Lady Senju (who by the way doesn't do politics). We are five ninja of which three, including our clan head, are chūnin.

In any case, neither Hazou nor his hivemind actually has a clue regarding what the most politically correct action is here. We don't even know who we are voting for yet. All of that hinges on wether Naruto even wants to throw his hat into the Hat ring. And after finding that out we should, one way or the other, meet with all three Ino-Shika-Cho clan heads simultaneously and discuss what to do. And then they can tell us about any perception issues that come with letting Naruto keep his clan council seat.

Kiba said:
Is Naruto becoming the clan head such a big deal WRT agency as far as people are concerned

Right now we are pretty open to suggestions and concerns of all our clan members. We have literally no idea how Naruto as clan head would react if he thinks we are all wrong and ignores our concerns. I don't think he will be an asshole but he could well be headstrong. Or simply have completely different priorities than us.

As a clan head I think all of us are willing to never use our power to command Naruto around. Is the same true for him?

Kiba · May 10, 2019

Sentient Tree said:
[X] Lore Update: Leaf Clan information

Can you vote for a generic Lore Update as well?

Rafin · May 10, 2019

@18scsc If you want a lore update in order to give us more planning time you should also vote for the generic [] Lore Update. Same goes for you @Sentient Tree .

sophistsDismay · May 10, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
We're a scary threat down the road, is the thing.

We've got three bloodlines but only one chuunin from each.

We've got two summoners but both of them are fairly new to the trade and chuunin apart from it.

We've got two good sealmasters, which is a solid strength-right-now, but Jiraiya's notes only make our future sealing prowess stronger.

The marriage to the Nara and possible Naruto support are some of the strongest things we've got going for us now. We're scary in the sense that if you leave us unattended we have the potential to become very very powerful. If you were a clan like the Hyuuga, or a Hyuuga-aligned clan, wouldn't you find it optimal to nip the Goketsu in the bud before all of those investments mature?

We have three bloodlines, but at least one of them is no longer going to be a Goketsu bloodline in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if some other clan tries to do the same to Noburi.

Emstar · May 10, 2019

[X] Action Plan: Growing Goketsu

sophistsDismay · May 10, 2019

If Jiraiya said to make Naruto clan head, which Naruto will presumably go along with, we really shouldn't go adopt somebody into the clan without consulting with him. Adopting anyone into the clan right now is a terrible idea and would make us look like we're massively overreaching our authority - alongside trying to convince Naruto that it's important that he use the Uzumaki clan vote in order to assure a Goketsu friendly Hokage, it would probably immediately start us off on an adversarial relationship. Can we please avoid doing that? We should go into this conversation with the intent to have Naruto as an ally, not with the intent to subvert his authority and ensure our own. We need to have powerful ninja in the clan and adopting Naruto, even if he becomes clan head, is the best way we can do that right now.

Kiba · May 10, 2019

Sampatrick said:
If Jiraiya said to make Naruto clan head, which Naruto will presumably go along with, we really shouldn't go adopt somebody into the clan without consulting with him. Adopting anyone into the clan right now is a terrible idea and would make us look like we're massively overreaching our authority - alongside trying to convince Naruto that it's important that he use the Uzumaki clan vote in order to assure a Goketsu friendly Hokage, it would probably immediately start us off on an adversarial relationship. Can we please avoid doing that? We should go into this conversation with the intent to have Naruto as an ally, not with the intent to subvert his authority and ensure our own. We need to have powerful ninja in the clan and adopting Naruto, even if he becomes clan head, is the best way we can do that right now.

We are making decisions to make this clan be something that he would join. Plus, we're basically acting clanhead now.

Rafin · May 10, 2019

I am currently undecided wether I should drop my approval vote fore either the winning plan or the Lore Update.
I really like @Inferno Vulpix plan. So much so that I can't think of any additional way to improve it. But maybe I am just missing something. If anyone has an argument why we need more time that is about potential pitfalls of things not having been thought out enough as opposed to being about disagreement with the essential points of the plan, please inform me. I am willing to vote to give us more time for polish and mistake prevention if people think it is needed. But I am also worried about the risk of a plan that aligns much less with my opinions winning if the proponents of this one happen to be indisposed after the Lore Update.

Anderkent · May 10, 2019

Agreed on having Naruto on our side being our de facto highest priority as a clan, now that Tsunade has mostly stated her position.

Whether that means adopting him into the clan, or saying that we'll love for him to be family, and if he wants to take some time about the clan decision it makes no practical difference for us - other than having an extra clan vote, which may be useful... It's not that big of a difference. We should mostly make sure that he feels welcome in either case.

What Jirayia wanted for Naruto is family. He didn't want him to be alone, as the single Uzumaki left, on his own dealing with clan politics etc. The most straightforward way of doing that was to pull him into the clan; but we can do all that without the surname change, if he's open to it.

sophistsDismay · May 10, 2019

Kiba said:
We are making decisions to make this clan be something that he would join. Plus, we're basically acting clanhead now.

We're making decisions to make this clan something he would want to join by creating a clear power struggle between our own goals for the clan and the goals that Naruto might have? No, what we're clearly doing (from Naruto's perspective) is stacking the clan with more ninja that would be personally loyal to us rather than to Naruto. This is a terrible idea and we absolutely should not go through with it. If Jiraiya said that Naruto should specifically be clan head, there is probably a reason for that. Jiraiya wouldn't say that if he didn't think that Naruto's goals aligned with our own. We should ensure that Naruto is our ally before we go ahead and take any actions that could have far reaching political consequences like adopting new clanless ninja into our ranks.

faflec · May 10, 2019

Yeah, I'm not fully satisfied with either Action Plan thus far, though they're both pretty good. Still, no reason not to. @Oneiros @Inferno Vulpix Feel free to steal from my plan.

[X] Action Plan: Party Growth

Word count: 299

What did Tsunade say about Mari? Zabuza flashbacks distracted us.

Get the full BotG story.
- Official Tower reports?
- Approach someone who was there. Minori? Chouza?
  - Speaking of...Chouza lost close teammates. Should we suggest collaborating on a memorial?

Adoption:
- Akane/Tenten: Easy picks. Make offers ASAP if others agree:
  - Akane: Make it together – she's already family.
  - Tenten: Let Keiko offer – she knows her best.
- Lee:
  - He's talented, and all alone after Gai's death.
  - Can we mitigate his personality to minimize friction? Soundproofing, house rules...?
- Inter-village adoption (Doigama, Kato...): Subject of consideration?

Family matters:
- Mari: How was your day? Did you accomplish your goal?
- Kagome:
  - Give him Jiraiya's sealing notes.
  - Is he willing to teach adoptees sealling?
- Noburi: Schedule an appointment with Kabuto to check bloodline interactions with SC/Summoning.
  - Yes, we want him to have the Toad Scroll.
  - You can also investigate him on adoption.

Naruto:
- Unless he specifies otherwise, bring our teammates.
- We promised Jiraiya we'd support him. Be gentle and understanding.
- Introduce yourselves. Offer condolences. Answer any questions he has.
  - If he asks, give a quick rundown on the clan and our story/motivations.
- Give him Jiraiya's will.
- Ask about the Uzumaki council seat. What'll happen if he's adopted?
  - Express concerns about Hiashi's animosity towards us.
  - Possible solutions, if prompted:
    - Set a ruling that he wouldn't lose the seat.
    - Before Naruto is adopted, let him declare an Uzumaki heir.
    - Bind our clans so closely they'd be separate only by technicality.

Other: Delegate as appropriate
- Review Jiraiya's spy network notes. Identify easily-securable contacts.
- Send Jiraiya's letter to Orochimaru to the Snakes (via Pangolin messengers).
  - Orochimaru could have faked his death; either way, he should have it.
- Offer Ino our condolences.
- Gather information on Akatsuki.
  - Grab their profiles from the Tower.
  - Ask Kagome to summarize their book.

Kalkin · May 10, 2019

Mari is a seduction specialist

Anderkent · May 10, 2019

ContextBot said:
We never interacted with Naruto, yes I get that we aren't showing up and just swear fealty to him, but just trusting him (as a Clan head) after all that happened because Jiraiya did, without trying to get to know him?

This confuses me - what is 'all that happened because Jirayia trusted Naruto'? (presumably negative with the connotation)

I think honouring Jirayias wish that we help Naruto however we can is the least we can do. And if that means Naruto wants access to Goketsus (i.e. Jirayia's) resources, either as actual clan head or simply as a group that has declared strong support to him, I'm fine with that.

Honestly I don't expect Naruto to make many immediate demands, and rather I expect him to be an useful ally in the current political crisis.

Kiba · May 10, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Express our concerns about Hiashi and his animosity with the Goketsu.

If he doesn't already have a solution:

If we can vote in a Hokage favourable to us, we could convince them to rule that you wouldn't lose the Uzumaki seat.

Alternatively, we could simply bind the Uzumaki and Goketsu so close together that they're the same clan in all but name.

Or Naruto don't think that it won't be a problem.

sophistsDismay · May 10, 2019

I can see absolutely no benefit from adopting Tenten and Akane to the clan now before consulting with Naruto about it. Adding two chuunin level ninja is not going to be particularly sway his likelihood of joining the clan - which presumably we shouldn't need to worry about - and could only cause strife if he was against it or if it had any political consequences.

ContextBot · May 10, 2019

Evenstar said:
Jaraiya trusted him, and I trust Jaraiya. I'm not going to gainsay his one direct request to us. No, this doesn't mean "if Naruto is a massive blithering idiot, do nothing about it" - it means cooperate, but keep the insurance letter Jaraiya wrote us. He's deliberately given us the weapon we need to effectively dispute Naruto's claim to Clan Head if need be.

OK, I don't trust Jiraiya.

Also , No he gave Naruto the Clan, if he is alive:

Velorien said:
One last thing. All of you are my family, but Naruto has been my heir for a decade. In his letter, I leave the clan to him.

We never met this guy, I don't want to give some random guy power over us.

Evenstar said:
Not only that, but do you really think he wouldn't have noticed the potential power of the Uzumaki seat? If the "two seats" plan was actually better than adopting Naruto, would it not be better for Naruto as well?

Jaraiya is actually competent and looks out for those he cares about. He would not deliberately steer us into political danger by costing us a vital seat on the council, and I would bet you a dollar that there's something in Naruto's letter about the disposition of the Uzumaki seat.

That was never my point. I never talked about Naruto being Uzumaki, I just don't want to give him the Goketsu clan head status.

Evenstar said:
And if you're saying he was emotionally compromised: Sure! He was probably emotionally compromised! But do you really think for even a second that he would deliberately put Naruto in danger by making him head of a clan he wasn't ready to lead?

Besides the point that Naruto was under torture by Akatsuki for a few months and isn't ready to deal with a bunch of strangers?

Yes. Jiraiya makes false choices all the time.

Evenstar said:
He's also a S-rank master diplomat.

Nah. He was ok, but that's it. He lost the Inuzuka, who should be easy to manipulate (if they are as dumb as everyone portrays them to be). Yet he lost them and got a bunch of minor clans building a coalition against him. Plus all the chaos he faced with the Mist diplomats.

Mari had not that much trouble dealing with the Leaf clans, comparatively speaking.

Cariyaga · May 10, 2019

[X] Action Plan: Party Growth

fiirofa · May 10, 2019

[X] Action Plan: Party Growth

Anderkent · May 10, 2019

faflec said:
Yeah, I'm not fully satisfied with either Action Plan thus far, though they're both pretty good. Still, no reason not to. @Oneiros @Inferno Vulpix Feel free to steal from my plan.

[X] Action Plan: Party Growth

Word count: 368

We zoned out just now due to Zabuza flashbacks. What was Tsunade saying about Mari and the Hat?

Find out the full BotG story.

Check official Tower reports.

Reach out to someone who was there, like Chouza.

Speaking of Chouza...

Losing teammates so close to him must be really hard.

Ask if he'd like to build a memorial together.

Adoption:

Akane and Tenten are all but shoe-ins. Suggest we send offers ASAP.

Akane's family:

All of Uplift available goes.

You're family already; the offer's always open.

Tenten:

Keiko goes alone.

We trust her judgement, and she knows Tenten best.

Regarding Lee:

Personality aside, he's very talented, and shouldn't be left alone after Gai's death.

Perhaps we could try mitigating his personality so that we can live harmoniously while allowing him to honor Gai's YOUTHFUL personality? Soundproofing, house rules, etc.?

Family matters:

Mari: How was your day? Did you accomplish what you set out to do this afternoon?

Kagome:

Give him Jiraiya's seal notes.

Is he willing to teach adoptees sealling?

Noburi: Schedule an appointment with Kabuto to check bloodline interactions with SC/Summoning.

Yes, we think you should have the Toad Contract.

It's also a way for you to check him out for adoption.

Naruto:

If he doesn't specify who he'd like to meet, bring Noburi, Keiko, and Akane.

We promised Jiraiya we'd support him. Be gentle and understanding.

Introduce ourselves. Offer condolences. Answer any questions he has.

Let him read Jiraiya's will.

If he asks, give him a quick rundown on our story and motivations.

Ask about the Uzumaki council seat and what'll happen when he's adopted.

Express our concerns about Hiashi's animosity towards us.

Possible solutions, if prompted:

Set a ruling that he wouldn't lose the seat.

Let Naruto declare a heir who'd take the seat once adoption goes through.

Bind our clans so closely they'd become the same in all but name.

Misc.:

Review Jiraiya's notes on his spy network, identifying easily-securable contacts.

Send Jiraiya's letter to Orochimaru to the Snakes.

We don't know if Orochimaru died or if he "survived, but faked his death", but he deserves to have his teammates' last words.

Have Keiko send a Pangolin to Snake territory with the message.

I feel like that's too many scenes, and I'd really like to get to Naruto now. We can catch up with Mari in the update after; honestly I'd even consider trimming the adoptees for now.

I guess that means I just prefer Inferno Vulpix's plan?

ContextBot said:
OK, I don't trust Jiraiya.

Also , No he gave Naruto the Clan, if he is alive:

We never met this guy, I don't want to give some random guy power over us.

That was never my point. I never talked about Naruto being Uzumaki, I just don't want to give him the Goketsu clan head status.

Besides the point that Naruto was under torture by Akatsuki for a few months and isn't ready to deal with a bunch of strangers?

I think all the clan head discussion is on the condition that Naruto seems fully capable / in the right mind. We don't know if he isn't ready to deal with a bunch of stragers, we should find out; but most importantly my impression is he has *no one else*. (Except maybe Tsunade?)
All the other clans will always treat him as a political entity; Jirayia's request is that *we don't*. We back him, not play political backscratches with him.

And, honestly, that makes sense for us too. We are complete strangers to Naruto, and if we take away Jirayia's legacy from him we're adversarial strangers at that. Whereas if we offer to be family to him (at any pace he wants), we're something no other clan can be (until he gets married).

ContextBot said:
Yes. Jiraiya makes false choices all the time.

All the time seems a bit stretching it? TBH other than allowing us to run boardgame night I don't think there were any blunders in Jirayias mist actions?

ContextBot said:
Nah. He was ok, but that's it. He lost the Inuzuka, who should be easy to manipulate (if they are as dumb as everyone portrays them to be). Yet he lost them and got a bunch of minor clans building a coalition against him. Plus all the chaos he faced with the Mist diplomats.

Mari had not that much trouble dealing with the Leaf clans, comparatively speaking.

I mean, maybe the conclusion you reach here should be that Inuzuka are not as easy to manipulate/dumb as the memes indicate? They're a reasonably strong clan, and being underestimated is quite a good thing in many circumstances.

Mari hasn't had much trouble dealing with the Leaf clans because all the Leaf clans were plotting against Jirayia, not her, so most of the trouble was falling on Jirayia.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

The Shining One

(╯ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ╯︵ ┻─┻

Handsome Gentleperson