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Also, in the time frame that most of these overtures would matter we should be chilling near S rank anyways.
It'll be like something from the "Kinder Dice" Interlude, except we'll be the Jiraiya to Harumitsu's Hazou.

"Oh, you're insulting my student? Let me spin the only keys to the literal afterlife around my finger while I think of an appropriate response."
 
Can we just not engage with this line? Dealing with Homophobic Assholes just isn't fun. Especially in a making friend way
Is there some way that we can do this that is minimally unfun for you? Or some other kind of long term political/economic move that you would prefer? Because doing politics, making friends, and cementing trade deals are what is most fun for me.

Perhaps we could only engage with the Hyuga? Would that be more acceptable for you?
 
Is there some way that we can do this that is minimally unfun for you? Or some other kind of long term political/economic move that you would prefer? Because doing politics, making friends, and cementing trade deals are what is most fun for me.

Perhaps we could only engage with the Hyuga? Would that be more acceptable for you?

The biggest political thing I'm interested in is doing something with the Kurosawa. Big, ambitious, lots of moving parts and potentially huge payouts. I'd be ok with engaging with the Hyūga but I find it uninteresting because no stakes, gains or risks to speak off.
 
The biggest political thing I'm interested in is doing something with the Kurosawa. Big, ambitious, lots of moving parts and potentially huge payouts. I'd be ok with engaging with the Hyūga but I find it uninteresting because no stakes, gains or risks to speak off.


I don't really understand the payout you're hawking on about.
 
I don't really understand the payout you're hawking on about.
Well I see us getting tons of bloodline secrets, generations of sealing research notes, another Jounin in Hana who will be able to help us, huge increase in seal production, a second example of how to seal research he bijoū, expanding summoner trade network to a second market, more friendly essies, control of the water yakuza and about 300 more ninja to integrate.

Which is a pretty huge potential payout. Lots of risk and maneuvering involved but totally doable.
 
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Well I see us getting tons of bloodline secrets,
I agree this is a possibility.
generations of sealing research notes,
I agree this is a possibility.
another Jounin in Hana who will be able to help us,
Given that she's not setting foot in Leaf, meaning that we're going to have minimal interaction with her, I'm not sure exactly how much help she'd be but I agree that she'd be helpful.
huge increase in seal production,
I disagree - the Kurosawa already know that they can churn out seals like nobody's business, but choose not to. This implies that there's a good reason that they aren't doing this. Economist, $50 bill on the ground, etc.
a second example of how to seal research he bijoū,
Wait, from the Kurosawa? Did a Kurosawa sealmaster seal the jinchuuriki of Mist?
expanding summoner trade network to a second market,
One Summoner in Mist could probably do fairly well by offering unique goods. They'd need to pay us a cut because it's our network, so I'm not worried about them defecting, and we have so many scrolls I think that a second market is unlikely. I don't know what it would do to village-to-village trade - either it would be great or disastrous. Let's ask Shika first, and see if maybe, this time, we've found a situation ('instant transportation of goods and information between Leaf and Mist, who are increasingly becoming more than allies of convenience') but I agree that there are benefits here.

The biggest hurdle, beyond finding a scroll, is getting Asuma's permission to give it to someone in Mist. (I am pretty sure that Hana is not a candidate for the same reasons that she isn't going to be allowed back in the village, in addition to Asuma's concerns about us concentrating power.)
more friendly essies,
...in the Kurosawa? Who?
control of the water yakuza
...from the Kurosawa? How?
and about 300 more ninja to integrate.
...from the Kurosawa? 300? Integrate into what?

I think that you're making some valid points here, but some of them feel like big leaps.

I'm interested in going to Mist and doing a diplomacy for a number of reasons, some of which overlap with what you've listed here.
 
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from the Kurosawa? 300? Integrate into what?

I disagree - the Kurosawa already know that they can churn out seals like nobody's business, but choose not to. This implies that there's a good reason that they aren't doing this. Economist, $50 bill on the ground, etc.

These two quote are a consequence of the plan I'm interested in. We take control of the clan and can direct our new minions to further our goals.


Wait, from the Kurosawa? Did a Kurosawa sealmaster seal the jinchuuriki of Mist?
Nahh I plan to convince the Mizukage to share with us after we become good friends.
...in the Kurosawa? Who?
Nope just going make friend with the Angel without mercy and the Mizukage
...from the Kurosawa? How?
As one of my opening moves plan on making a deal with them that will eventually turn them into loyal minions

I think that you're making some valid points here, but some of them feel like big leaps.

Yeah this is the ultimate high roll that we could get. Since there's a ton of really high payouts I'm super interested in it
 
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I disagree - the Kurosawa already know that they can churn out seals like nobody's business, but choose not to. This implies that there's a good reason that they aren't doing this. Economist, $50 bill on the ground, etc.
It's an ideological thing. The Kurosawa's motto is 'By Darkness Unmoved' which Hazou once described as meaning 'they hold the line'. It's baked into the Kurosawa ideology that they should be out there on the front lines fighting the battles directly rather than staying in a support role, no matter how good they may be at that support role.

This, if anything, is worse than 'there's a good reason they aren't doing this'. Worse than just a tricky obstacle to find a clever solution for, the Kurosawa themselves are what stand between us and a Kurosawa factory, and they have no intention of yielding. They already know the benefits, they already know the arguments, and still they're still not doing it.

And frankly, like, the goal here is basically 'put all the Kurosawa in a big sealing sweatshop'. Kinda not cool.
 
This, if anything, is worse than 'there's a good reason they aren't doing this'.
It might be worth noting that I personally consider 'we thought about it and decided it would be a depressing way to live' a good reason.

I suspect that the Kurosawa are discouraged from becoming sealmasters at a higher-than-normal rate to avoid cultural pressure to become sealmasters. I'm okay with that and don't expect it to be mutable or worth the effort to make it mutable.

Being a sealmaster is a risky business and I will actively oppose plans to coerce people into changing their entire lives for our convenience without their explicit consent.
 
Being a sealmaster is a risky business and I will actively oppose plans to coerce people into changing their entire lives for our convenience without their explicit consent.
Just a note I don't want them to become seal masters. I want them to draw like 100 seals a week that Hazō would infuse. That's only 8 hours so not a huge demand on their time
 
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And frankly, like, the goal here is basically 'put all the Kurosawa in a big sealing sweatshop'. Kinda not cool.
Yeah, they may not look kindly upon Hazou selling so many seals in Leaf, or how the Goketsu give away seals like they're nothing.

Not to mention Hazou being so viscerally offended when he thought that Leaf's printer press was really a Kurosawa chained to a desk. He'd have that only via his exposure to "Kurosawa Culture" via Hana.

So such a mentality must be strong in the "main/real" Kurosawa for Hana to pass that on to her son.
 
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Give Jiraiya's notes to civilians. Same result. More interested in deals with the Wakahisa.
We've proposed that idea before (on discord, I think?), The QMs said that having chakra was necessary for one to study sealing --and theory itself wouldn't be enough.

It's notable that Harumitsu only ever gained the Sealmaster stunt after researching, drafting, and infusing his own, handmade seal. From start to finish, his own seal.
 
Honestly, my main problem with the Kurosawa idea is that I don't really think many of the things they could get us would be worth the time and effort to do so. We've tried to get jutsu and seals out of other places and it's like getting water from a stone.
 
Just a note I don't want them to become seal masters. I want them to draw like 100 seals a week that Hazō would infuse. That's only 8 hours so not a huge demand on their time
That seems slightly less difficult than getting them to all do sealing, but at the same time if they weren't against it almost as much as they are against sealing they would already be doing this and Mist would be inundated with seals.

Do you have a plan or idea for leverage that could give us a decent chance to convince them? I believe you mentioned an 'opening move,' what move are you planning?
 
Do you have a plan or idea for leverage that could give us a decent chance to convince them? I believe you mentioned an 'opening move,' what move are you planning?
Yeah, It's not really complicated either. We Know Hanzo is an ambitious kid who want to be the next Mizukage. We also know that the clan elders want to make him a figurehead. So we use him as a wedge to move the Kurosawa. We would be offering him the ability to have a huge back channel revenue source that the elders couldn't track. He has his loyal minions draw seals that Kagome or Hazou can infuse. No paper trail or meeting to be spied upon. Hanzo gets a bigger warchest to maneuver and we increase seal production. We then also cut a deal with whomever is the Kurosawa's current seal master. We have notes from the sannin that we can barter for whatever we want. That gives us two partners in the Kurosawa in powerful positions. At the same time we get Hana on board with Hanzo as a real leader. Convince her to act as Hanzo's Mari. We go and snag the squirrel scroll and give that to Hanna with a promise to give it to him in say 5 years.

Edit: this does preclude actually taking over the clan but since that would be even more difficult and have greater thread resistance I've basically gave up that plot.
 
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As one of my opening moves plan on making a deal with them that will eventually turn them into loyal minions [and thereby get us 300 ninja to integrate]
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm confident that the Kurosawa aren't even close to 300 ninja. I'm reasonably sure they're closer to a couple dozen.

Just a note I don't want them to become seal masters. I want them to draw like 100 seals a week that Hazō would infuse. That's only 8 hours so not a huge demand on their time
Note that in general non-sealmasters cannot accurately draw blanks. I'm not sure it's been explicitly discussed between the QMs but I'm confident this extends to the Kurosawa.

Actually, I think we've been making an error regarding this with Hazō. I seem to recall that we've let him draw blanks for Kagome/Jiraiya to infuse without Hazō having learned the seal first. Perhaps I'm being cheese brained again, but my understanding is that he shouldn't be able to do that. He can draw things in someone else's style but only if he knows the seal in his own style first. I'm probably the one who botched this in the past.
 
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'm confident that the Kurosawa aren't even close to 300 ninja. I'm reasonably sure they're closer to a couple dozen.
Yeah misremembered what we estimated average clan size to be back in the day. Think the number wound up being about 100 nin per clan. With the losses Mist has taken and slightly lower starting number then Leaf makes since that there clans where a little smaller

Note that in general non-sealmasters cannot accurately draw blanks. I'm not sure it's been explicitly discussed between the QMs but I'm confident this extends to the Kurosawa.

Actually, I think we've been making an error regarding this with Hazō. I seem to recall that we've let him draw blanks for Kagome/Jiraiya to infuse without Hazō having learned the seal first. Perhaps I'm being cheese brained again, but my understanding is that he shouldn't be able to do that. He can draw things in someone else's style but only if he knows the seal in his own style first. I'm probably the one who botched this in the past.
For the non sealmaster not being able to draw seals we would need to train them up in calligraphy first. This is a lot less of a time and XP investment compared to actually learning sealling (Plus reduce the risk to the Kurosawa of dying to a seal failure by a ton). We would also have to spend time verifying the blanks which takes a while but is still doable.

as for the second part the rules explicitly site an example of being able to draw things in other people's style that Hazou has not researched

rules said:
If an Iron Nerve holder sees a seal (not a blank or an exhausted seal) in good light for 1-2 seconds, the image of that seal is permanently stored in their brain. They are not considered to be familiar with the seal, but they can still attempt to draw a blank for it. They need to succeed on the associated Craftsmanship (Calligraphy) roll once 'manually', and then after that they will auto-succeed on the Craftsmanship (Calligraphy) roll for all other blanks of that seal. NB: Since you can use Fate Points on the Craftsmanship (Calligraphy) roll, this will represent tremendous savings over time in terms of risk for Hazō.

It is not possible in practice to describe a seal well enough for someone else to draw it accurately.

Draw Blanks for Unfamiliar Seals / Other People's Seals

Ordinarily, a sealsmith can only make accurate blanks of seals that they are familiar with and only in their own style, not the style of anyone else. Iron Nerve holders break both of these rules:

  • They can make a Craftsmanship (Calligraphy) check to draw blanks for any unfamiliar seal they have in their 'Instant Seal Recall' library. These blanks will be in the style of whomever drew the original seal.
  • If they are familiar with a seal because they learned it from someone else then they can make a Craftsmanship (Calligraphy) check to draw it either in their own style or in their teacher's style.

Example: Hazō saw some seals during his time in the Isan. He is not familiar with them and has no idea what they do, but he can still (theoretically) produce an accurate blank for them. These blanks will be in the style of (and therefore can only be safely infused by) the person from VHitM that scribed the seal Hazō originally saw.

Example: Kagome taught Hazō how to make explosive tags, so Hazō is familiar with them. Hazō can create blanks in his own style (and then infuse them) or he can create them in Kagome's style and let Kagome infuse them.
 
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It might be worth noting that I personally consider 'we thought about it and decided it would be a depressing way to live' a good reason.

I suspect that the Kurosawa are discouraged from becoming sealmasters at a higher-than-normal rate to avoid cultural pressure to become sealmasters. I'm okay with that and don't expect it to be mutable or worth the effort to make it mutable.

Being a sealmaster is a risky business and I will actively oppose plans to coerce people into changing their entire lives for our convenience without their explicit consent.

That's different from being a research sealmaster, which is a level above sealmastery. There's a reason why Asuma considered Hazo one of his best sealmaster in the village.
 
Yeah, It's not really complicated either. We Know Hanzo is an ambitious kid who want to be the next Mizukage. We also know that the clan elders want to make him a figurehead. So we use him as a wedge to move the Kurosawa. We would be offering him the ability to have a huge back channel revenue source that the elders couldn't track. He has his loyal minions draw seals that Kagome or Hazou can infuse. No paper trail or meeting to be spied upon. Hanzo gets a bigger warchest to maneuver and we increase seal production. We then also cut a deal with whomever is the Kurosawa's current seal master. We have notes from the sannin that we can barter for whatever we want. That gives us two partners in the Kurosawa in powerful positions. At the same time we get Hana on board with Hanzo as a real leader. Convince her to act as Hanzo's Mari. We go and snag the squirrel scroll and give that to Hanna with a promise to give it to him in say 5 years.

Edit: this does preclude actually taking over the clan but since that would be even more difficult and have greater thread resistance I've basically gave up that plot.
Sounds like it might work. I expect this to give us only around 1-10 Kurosawa scribing seals though, as they'll have to hide what they're doing. If it comes out that Hanzō is making his supporters scribe seals, the elders will use that to paint him as a traitor to the clan's way of life and potentially remove him from power. So it's a huge gamble for him. We'll have to make sure to make it worth his while, and reduce chances of him being caught as much as possible.

We can't reduce the chance of them being caught scribing, but we can reduce the chance of someone finding out that they're trading us seals and realizing that they can't all have come from the Kurosawa's sealmaster. First off, we should make sure that the one infusing everything is the Kurosawa's sealmaster. That ensures that any individual seal that is found won't immediately reveal there's something fishy going on by being someone else's seal blank. It also prevents someone from assassinating us by intentionally drawing a blank wrong. Next, we need to establish strong trade deals with the Kurosawa, which will give us the ability to hide seals among all the other cargo. Ideally, we want cargo that is fragile, so it can't be put in a storage scroll. If we could get the Kurosawa to sand lenses for telescopes or eyeglasses, or to trade jewelry, that should work.

If we do all of this it should be possible to convince Hanzō to agree, assuming that we mainly buy very expensive seals and/or pay above the market rate. The Kurosawa's sealmaster will be vital in this; it would be best if they are young and moderate, as well as ideally already under Hanzō's control.
 
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