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Hey, new reader here (so please be mindful of spoilers, it'll be a while before I'm caught up). First comment is gonna be an essay. You can thank @_The_Bomb for this.
Welcome! Lovely to have you. Note that there seems to have been a glitch because your first post came through twice with one or two other people posts in between.

If I am wrong and either of these options will attempt to conceal relevant Dragonwar information from anyone, let me know so I can change my vote.
They are not intended to imply concealing information from anyone.

This is a really good line, BirdLord. It's quite clear how Hazō could misunderstand it. I would misunderstand it if I heard it. It's perfectly reasonable to asume tha----
Thank you. That was @Velorien's actually, from QM chat.

If you want to emphasize a word that is already italicized, bold it instead of unitalisizing.
Standard is the way I did it, but I like yours better so I changed it.


Wow did Hazō really say this whole thing line-by-line? Damn. That would be hilarious.
No, he simply described it. The reader gets to see it in full.

Every dog? Including those on different Paths? Does he know anything about the origins of the Inuzuka? I want to ask him about this but I also want to never bring this up again.
Hazō is confident that he meant "every dog in the Dog Clan", which (Hazō assumes) contains every dog on the Seventh Path.

hundreds of thousands of dogs?
My mistake. Should have said 'tens of thousands'. Fixed.

I have a feeling that summoning is gonna produce some eldritch horrors
/me grins and fetches the popcorn

So big whoops on my part. I hadn't yet actually read the retcon when I wrote my last couple of comments. Having read it, it fits Hazo just fine. No more complaints from me on that front.
You objected to something based on your own assumptions instead of actually reading it? I started to say "That's a little weird", but then realized that no, that's the norm on the internet.

Well, anyway, I'm glad your concerns were settled.

It hasn't been in doubt which side of the Responsible Authority Figure (pun intended) line you're on, but times like this do help, and are affirming for why so many of us are willing to put so much time into the quest.
Thank you very much. It's nice to hear. Especially when we get the occasional comments about "The QMs are too harsh and they write from the letter of the plan instead of the spirit", it's great to know that people do in fact regard us as playing fair.
 
Thank you very much. It's nice to hear. Especially when we get the occasional comments about "The QMs are too harsh and they write from the letter of the plan instead of the spirit", it's great to know that people do in fact regard us as playing fair.
I thought the deathworld setting to be unfair by design and rolling with it to be the point of the game 🤭 if something seems random or unexpectable, my immediate reaction is "heh. Katia Managhan would get it that way too". It makes the heroes triumphing over any odds at all extremely satisfying if or when it feels that things just conspire. For a while I assumed Jiraiya's death was just thrown in because the game would be too easy with a Sannin Kage as a paternal figure ready to defend us and teaching us über-skills and that sounded just great. Let's simultaneously be, and root for, the underdog, we'll just need to be smarter next time-
I didn't even consider another perspective until recently, to be honest.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Dec 15, 2021 at 8:55 AM, finished with 412 posts and 27 votes.
Voting is closed.

 
I, for one, am ready and eager to wage an all-our war against Ami. Lobbing plots and counter-plots against a proper mastermind, devising complex assassination schemes, navigating tricky precommitments looking for loopholes, sharpening our game-theoretic shivs with omnicidal contingencies, weaponizing plausible deniability like no-one's business while operating in a hostile environment. No essies who'd shut us down with raw power, no room for cowardly compromises, no uncertainly regarding whether we're in the right. Just two people doing their best to orchestrate each other's downfall amidst a growing pile of dead timelines. Like Jashin intended.

This is exactly what I'd wanted out of the quest this entire time!

This is going to be so much fun.
 
Isn't Naruto in Ami's corner more than in ours?
Sure, but he isn't literally a hollowed-out puppet entirely subordinate to her will (yet). Our ultimate opponent does not inherently possess the power to casually steamroll over us. She'll try to nudge the people who do onto our path, but that's a much more interesting and high-variance game to play.
 
So, do we have any way at all to improve FOOM? Time is running out, so we need power-ups now.
  • The Yamanaka might possess Resolve-boosting techniques. If we could trust Ino enough to cut her in, or if we could come up with some clever offer, we might be able to access them.
  • There's almost certainly a Summon Clan specializing in mind-affecting jutsu; a clan whose members are innately bad at mind-related things/emotion control, namely. We might be able to find them.
  • Mari or another capable THer might be able to jury-rig some sort of Resolve-boosting/clone-sickness-decreasing jutsu.
  • Biosealing.
 
  • The Yamanaka might possess Resolve-boosting techniques. If we could trust Ino enough to cut her in, or if we could come up with some clever offer, we might be able to access them.
  • There's almost certainly a Summon Clan specializing in mind-affecting jutsu; a clan whose members are innately bad at mind-related things/emotion control, namely. We might be able to find them.
  • Mari or another capable THer might be able to jury-rig some sort of Resolve-boosting/clone-sickness-decreasing jutsu.
  • Biosealing.

Would it be possible Akane and/or Kei to create a Shadow Clone Stunt? They are basically dealing using Shadow Clone every second of the day multiple times for...months? That's a lot of time using Shadow Clone and dealing with Clone Sickness.(More than anyone not named Naruto).
We could also ask the Toad Sages to create such a technique, explaining that it's extremely important to save the world.
We could also ask the Spiders, they seems pretty involved in the whole "Great Seal" problem.
 
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And now I return to my irregularly-scheduled activity, which is being confused over how many atrocities Orochimaru is committing, exactly.

In Chapter 473.2, Asuma says:
If I could, I'd put Orochimaru on trial this very day. I don't have any proof that he's back to his old ways, but I'm not a fool. If that man goes through the justice of the Will of Fire, I very much doubt he'll come out unburned.
In Chapter 484, Ami says:
Hazō, I don't think you get what the Final Gift Programme is. When Ami created it, in what she considers a burst of genius to be proud of given the extreme constraints she was under—she created a single solution to a whole bunch of problems. Ami survives, starving families get saved, Orochimaru stops kidnapping innocents, and the Hokage stops losing face and having his authority undermined because he can't stop Orochimaru kidnapping innocents. For every ninja enjoying Orochimaru's hospitality right now, there's a family that's not going to starve or do any of the vile things that poor people are forced to do in order not to starve.
Those quotes seem to contradict each other. Either Oro was harvesting clanless ninja and/or civilians prior to the FGP, and people knew it, and it damaged Asuma's reputation... or that wasn't happening. One possibility is that Asuma didn't want to acknowledge this when talking to us, but that doesn't make much sense: he was already quite frank about Oro's monstrousness there, and his phrasing isn't the sort of wink-wink nudge-nudge you-know-what-I-mean I'd expect in that case — he seems to genuinely lack information. Another possibility is that Oro was taking people, and everyone knew it, but he was being subtle enough it couldn't be pinned on him, like he maybe did with Sadaharu. But Asuma's still saying things like "I don't have any proof" and "I'm no fool", like he's just assuming that Oro must be doing this on priors, instead of having clear statistical evidence that just fails to meet some legal standard.

I dunno. I think (gasp) someone might be lying to us.
 
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So, do we have any way at all to improve FOOM? Time is running out, so we need power-ups now
Ami-Style training in every plan when severes are healed. A +1 every day seems insignificant but it adds up. (Assuming the training works, I assume at least some of them will not provide a bonus so more like +.5 a day)
Technically, the best thing we could do is write a bunch of high-quality plans (bigger base XP) that are also exceedingly fun for the QMs to write and occur in a very short timeframe.

"QM had Fun XP" is not time dependent but scene dependent, so in theory we could double or triple our effective XP/day if we covered as little time as possible over the course of as many extremely-fun updates as possible.

This method has the added bonus of the QMs really not wanting to shut down how we're cheesing the system to squeeze impossibly large amounts of XP over a single day.

Also, doing a bunch of things the QMs like in thread to maximize the chance of earning XP. Create handy charts. Write detailed reaction posts. Make really funny jokes. Etc. Eventually something will earn XP (as long as these are all high quality).
 
Technically, the best thing we could do is write a bunch of high-quality plans (bigger base XP) that are also exceedingly fun for the QMs to write and occur in a very short timeframe.

"QM had Fun XP" is not time dependent but scene dependent, so in theory we could double or triple our effective XP/day if we covered as little time as possible over the course of as many extremely-fun updates as possible.

This method has the added bonus of the QMs really not wanting to shut down how we're cheesing the system to squeeze impossibly large amounts of XP over a single day.

Also, doing a bunch of things the QMs like in thread to maximize the chance of earning XP. Create handy charts. Write detailed reaction posts. Make really funny jokes. Etc. Eventually something will earn XP (as long as these are all high quality).
I can't speak for the QMs, but this strikes me as potentially hubristic. Emphasis on the traditional punishment for hubris.
 
Imainge if we made one of those's "Characters watch and react to their own shows" as a omake, but we used MfD characters and we used the Naruto anime (And shippuden) while ofcourse also forcing them to sit through filler hell.

While telling the MfD characters that their entire universe was created because extremely powerful entities beyond their comprehension decided it would make for great fun to create a world that's literally a anime except it makes sense.

I'm wondering, who would be the saltiest at their anime portrayal?

Would Neji rage at the heavens that anime him was right all along?

Would Yagura pop a gasket at finding out he is set up as a interesting antagonist only to be killed offscreen and only first being given screen time as a Edo Tensei Zombie, ONLY FOR HIS ENTIRE PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED CHARACTER TO BE RETCONNED! (Yeah I doubt he'd be happy)

How would Zabuza feel about seeing himself as a missing nin?

Would the constant Uchiha massacre flashbacks make Sasuke go: This isn't even traumatising anymore, at this point it's just annoying.

How would the Sannin feel about being blatant character expies?

How would Naruto react to finding out that Hazo pulled a Kato on him (except even worse because while Kato was at least a main character, Hazo straight up didn't exist in the original source material) and completely and utterly stole the show?

Honestly I feel like there's a lot of potential comedy gold in this idea, what do you guys think?
 
Imainge if we made one of those's "Characters watch and react to their own shows" as a omake, but we used MfD characters and we used the Naruto anime (And shippuden) while ofcourse also forcing them to sit through filler hell.

While telling the MfD characters that their entire universe was created because extremely powerful entities beyond their comprehension decided it would make for great fun to create a world that's literally a anime except it makes sense.

I'm wondering, who would be the saltiest at their anime portrayal?

Would Neji rage at the heavens that anime him was right all along?

Would Yagura pop a gasket at finding out he is set up as a interesting antagonist only to be killed offscreen and only first being given screen time as a Edo Tensei Zombie, ONLY FOR HIS ENTIRE PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED CHARACTER TO BE RETCONNED! (Yeah I doubt he'd be happy)

How would Zabuza feel about seeing himself as a missing nin?

Would the constant Uchiha massacre flashbacks make Sasuke go: This isn't even traumatising anymore, at this point it's just annoying.

How would the Sannin feel about being blatant character expies?

How would Naruto react to finding out that Hazo pulled a Kato on him (except even worse because while Kato was at least a main character, Hazo straight up didn't exist in the original source material) and completely and utterly stole the show?

Honestly I feel like there's a lot of potential comedy gold in this idea, what do you guys think?

Interlude: Chosen for the Grave, Part 6

Insofar as Oli had had any plans for his afternoon, these were not they. He had been enjoying talking to Jiraiya. It wasn't every day you got to reveal your amazing superpowers to a nearly-head-of-state who was prepared to sell his soul to have them used on his behalf. Sure, Val got all the best parts of being a ninja, and Earl got… actually, Oli wasn't sure what Earl got, on a practical level, but he had a feeling it would somehow end up as the power to freely rewrite reality, from quarks to supergiants. But here and now, Oli was the one who could transform geopolitics with the tap of a finger, and he wanted to enjoy the experience while it lasted.

Instead, Jiraiya had been called away to do whatever it was that spymasters did (they really should have fleshed more of this stuff out while they had the chance), and Oli had been promptly whisked away elsewhere. And this time, his interlocutor was not going to be won over with promises of military power through stat boosts.

"I am given to understand," one of the most dangerous men in the world said, "that you are our creator."

Nara Shikaku was exactly as the anime portrayed him, except that his gaze was much sharper, and his body language less that of a weary middle-aged man and more that of a panther resting before its next hunt. Unlike Jiraiya, he didn't feel threatening. He felt like someone who could erase you from existence without ever bothering to consider you an enemy.

"You could say that," Oli said hesitantly, wondering if Shikaku was about to hold him responsible for the existence of evil, or worse, of Maito Gai. "Strictly speaking, I came along later, when the majority of the worldbuilding was already done."

"It is an extraordinary claim," Shikaku said thoughtfully. "Jiraiya and the Hokage both appear to be convinced, but for my part, it would save us both a great deal of time if you could substantiate it with some verifiable piece of information that you could not otherwise possess."

That seemed fair. It was the classic question asked of time travellers, and in a sense Oli was in the same position—he had important knowledge and powers which could change the world in unimaginably vast ways, everything around him was fascinating, and at the same time he really really hoped he wasn't stuck here for good. As such, he'd predicted Shikaku's question (and wasn't that something to feel good about?) and come up with a decent answer while being escorted here by the invariably dour ANBU guards.

"There is a book in the deepest Nara vaults," he began, hoping that this was a CfG-canon statement and not one of those ideas Val and Earl batted around for fun before regaining their senses and vetoing it into oblivion. "It lists every known research pathway that is expected to lead to an existential risk, and only a handful of elders are allowed to handle it. Whenever a Nara realises that their research also has the potential for existential risk, they report it immediately, it's added to the book, and they stop. Whenever a Nara wants to conduct research in an area that they think has never been explored before, they consult the elders, who consult the book and forbid the research if they have to.

"Our players probably don't realise how many of their ideas the Nara already have in there," he added.

Shikaku frowned. "I can neither confirm nor deny that such a book exists. If it did, I would be almost one hundred percent certain that no one outside the clan was aware of its existence, and even within the clan, most of those who were would believe that was a form of oral tradition rather than a physical object.

"Supposing, then, that you are our creator, I have a number of questions for you."

"Go ahead," Oli said, suddenly aware that he was acting not only as a representative of the CfG QMs, but quite possibly of the entirety of Planet Earth.

"The first question must be 'why'."

"Why what?"

"Why does this world exist?" Shikaku clarified patiently. "What, if any, is its purpose?"

Oli considered lying, but quickly decided that if there was one man who could detect lies through body language, it would be the ninja famous for his intelligence and information processing abilities.

"Entertainment," he said uneasily. "Where I come from, this world is the setting of a fictional story."

Somehow, this did not seem to faze Shikaku in the slightest.

"What genre?" he asked immediately.

"Action, I think. You have to understand, we're not responsible for the original work. That was a man named Kishimoto. He wrote a highly popular manga—an illustrated story—for teenage readers. Then we took that work and altered it to create our own setting."

"An action story for teenage readers," Shikaku echoed. "And so is born a history of unending violence and pointless death. I assume it is set in Hidden Leaf, with a genin protagonist?"

Oli blinked. Twice. "How did you know?"

"Firstly, you arrived here and now, of all the places in the world and all points in history, and immediately oriented yourself with regard to the major players in Leaf and our geopolitical situation. Assuming finite time and intelligence, you or this Kishimoto invested some portion of those things in creating a profound Nara Clan secret that is of no relevance to the rest of the world. More broadly, you or Kishimoto made Leaf the most influential village. You had it founded by the heir of the Sage of Six Paths and you made it the origin of the village system itself, as well as the creator of such vital institutions as the Kage Summit, the Chūnin Exam and the Tailed Beast power balance. You made it stand out across the world as a beacon of civilisation. These are not the characteristics of an antagonist, nor of a mere background actor.

"Leaf has recently seen a rare crop of genin prodigies. They are of a suitable age for teenage readers to identify with, as genin they are primarily involved in small-scale battles which emphasise individual performance, and demographically they possess both the highest growth and the highest mortality rate. I could go on, but these are the some of the most salient points.

"Of course, I am guessing at the literary conventions of an alien culture. But since it appears I am correct, which of our genin is the focus of the story?"

"Uzumaki Naruto. His name is the title of the original."

"Uzumaki Naruto," Shikaku gave a faint smile. "Of course. Renowned as the son of a legendary hero, taught by the greatest experts since early childhood with the aid of an accelerated learning technique only he can truly master, and possessed of the single strongest source of power in the shinobi world. His education in politics, economics and strategy has been progressing more slowly, but one day he will be the greatest Kage that has ever lived. He displays vast variety and creativity in battle, and his position forces him to grapple with the temptations and responsibilities of power, the utopian ideals of youth versus the harsh pragmatism of reality, and the need to capitalise on that which makes him different without succumbing to alienation. I daresay I would enjoy reading such a story myself, had I the time."

"Um," Oli said. "That's not quite how it goes."

"Oh?"

Oli paused to marshal his thoughts. It had been a long while since he last watched the early episodes, though Val's regular frustrated ravings kept certain elements fresh in his mind.

"The canon Naruto's parentage is kept secret, and he is a universally bullied pariah because the older generation resents him as the Nine Tails host. He's the class clown, and he's so bad as a student that he fails his graduation exam at the Academy."

"I see," Shikaku said slowly. "Continue."

"A treacherous instructor tricks him into stealing the Hokage's secret scroll of techniques under the guise of an alternative graduation exam."

"The Hokage's secret scroll of techniques, or at least the one worthy of a definite article, is protected to the extent that even I am not cleared to know about some of the seals involved," Shikaku noted. "And you have just stated that your Naruto is less competent than a typical Academy student."

"Nevetheless, he manages to steal it."

"I assume he isn't captured and executed," Shikaku said, "since the story must continue. The first of the ANBU to find him facilitates his escape, presumably because they are corrupt and accept the scroll as personal payment. What follows is the romanticised career of a missing-nin, which I grant is also a good source of regular high-stakes combat, encounters with colourful characters and implausible dramatic plot twists."

Oli shifted uncomfortably in his chair. "Actually, the Hokage doesn't send any ANBU to recover the scroll. As far as I can remember, he sends a bunch of nameless chūnin we never see again, none of whom find Naruto in the end. And he watches Naruto using the… Telescope Technique?... but doesn't do anything else.

"Come to think of it, Val must know that technique now, and it sounds utterly broken," Oli added to himself.

"Anyway, the only one that finds Naruto is Umino Iruka."

"Shikamaru's Academy instructor?" Shikaku asked. "I suppose Naruto's as well, in context."

"Right. He's one of a very small number of people who actually has a friendly relationship with Naruto. By this point, Mizuki—the treacherous instructor—has found Naruto first, and told him about the Demon Fox. The Hokage is worried that the revelation will make Naruto use the scroll to unleash the Fox and destroy the village, though he still doesn't do anything, but Iruka risks his life to save Naruto and that makes everything OK. Then Naruto uses the Multiple Shadow Clone Technique he learned from the scroll while waiting for Mizuki, defeats Mizuki, and Iruka promotes him to genin on the spot."

"The Academy dropout learns the Multiple Shadow Clone Technique without an instructor in what I infer is a matter of hours?" Shikaku asked.

"DYK," Oli muttered.

"I beg your pardon?"

"That was a yes."

After a second's delay, Shikaku clapped his hands.

"Naruto is secretly a genius. Having deliberately failed his exams, he deceives Mizuki into deceiving him, thereby minimising his culpability for stealing the scroll. He successfully obtains the Multiple Shadow Clone Technique, which is a perfect fit for his unique advantage as the Demon Fox host, as well as providing the learning benefits to compensate for ostracism-induced inferior training. By shifting the blame fully to Mizuki, he renders himself innocent in the Hokage's eyes, ensuring that his new status as a security risk is outweighed by his extraordinary value as a prodigy who has already mastered one of Leaf's most powerful ninjutsu.

"Of course, this is all part of a greater gambit by the Hokage. He has already perceived Naruto and Mizuki's true nature and plans. He secretly reduces the defences on the scroll so that Naruto is capable of stealing it despite his overconfidence, and while he is forced to muster a response, he selects inferior shinobi and, having established Naruto's location using the Telescope Technique, dispatches them elsewhere. At the same time, he sends Iruka directly to said location. By selecting Iruka, having him battle alongside Naruto, and providing a symbolic act of goodwill and acceptance through the irregular promotion, he allays Naruto's irrational but inevitable temptation to use his new-found power for vengeance, exploits his emotional vulnerability as an outcast and lays the groundwork for a deal which will fully bind Naruto to him. In exchange for absolute loyalty, the Hokage will provide not only absolution but future preferential treatment, such as an elite instructor to take advantage of his 'newly-discovered' talent, and powerful teammates in order to further accelerate his growth. Needless to say, these are all benefits that the Hokage intends for his new rising star to have in any case.

"Now I consider it further," Shikaku went on without taking any visible time to consider it further, "it is clear that the Hokage caused or endorsed Naruto's childhood as a pariah in preparation for this incident or one like it. A kindly authority figure reaching out to a lonely orphan to offer acknowledgement of his true value, long-term emotional and material support, and protection from a court martial or worse? Why, the conspiracy practically writes itself."

Oli found himself without the power of speech.
 
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