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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I may or may not make changes to the introspective depending on how I feel after I reread it.

[X] Action Plan: Philosophical Humans
Word Count: 499
  • Dragonwar:
    • Declare (if necessary): We've produced enough HOWS to not be limited by quantity.
    • Prepare and test ways to hide the seals under rocks so the light doesn't show.
    • Go to the Great Seal and place the HOWS.
    • Take a sample of rock near there (not from the Great Seal!)
      • Record details about the Great Seal material -- color, luster, texture, shapes.
  • While moving to the Great Seal, reflect on Uplift and what it means.
    • This isn't about our past mistakes or old guilt, and while what Akane said is important, our judgement and understanding of Uplift shouldn't exactly mirror hers.
      • Simply apologizing without confronting the crux of the problem will just result in this happening again.
    • What Uplift means to us:
      • Uplift came from helping remote villages with basic ninjutsu, and seeing the difference it made. But was that really about helping individuals, or about making the world itself more just and efficient?
      • Our speech at the exams was about saving civilization by increasing population numbers. Do you really believe this, or is it simply a convenient rhetorical device?
        • Is it progress we're after, or a utopia for the masses?
      • We've always been contradictory in many ways:
        • We want peace and prosperity, but our first world-changing act was a weapon heralding a new scale of destruction.
        • We care for strangers and have welcomed many into the clan, but also treat everyone around us as resources to be effectively used.
        • We give out power generously, yet also pursue it aggressively.
        • When Jiraiya named us heir, he said we had the ruthlessness to send people to their deaths. Do we?
      • The dead on the Sunset Racer are part of the price of getting Uplift to where it is. How much more are we willing to pay?
      • Why are the deaths of the yakuza Haru murdered *wrong*? Is Akane right, and it's the principle of valuing human life that matters? Or were they simply too steep a price, but would be acceptable in return for sufficient gain? Why did we go out of your way to save Daizen, a psychotic murderer, but barely spared a thought for them?
      • We've dream-seen futures where we worked with Orochimaru. If that means defeating death, would it be worth it? What could we *not* justify, if that was our goal?
      • Do the monstrous things we do matter, if Uplift is accomplished as a result?
      • Is there a balance to be struck between efficiency and humanity?
    • What Uplift means for others:
      • For Akane, it's almost like a religion, similar to Youth. Does that make us her spiritual leader?
        • She expects us to embody our ideals as she understands them. Is that something we are capable of?
      • Kei treats it as a moral philosophy, much like Akane. You were more comfortable tolerating genocide as the price of Uplift than she was.
      • Noburi, Mari and Kagome are largely on board, though more practical about it.
    • ...Who do we want to be? To ourselves, to our family, to the world?
 
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[ ] The worst mistakes are the ones you need to own the most.
  • Hazou approaches the Yamanaka estate and informes the guards that he would like to speak to [insert maximal honorific] Ino and Akane in an attempt to resolve disputes before likely demise.
    • Hazou waits on crutches standing alone in rain and snow for as long as Ino and Akane decide is necessary to entertain the possibility of his sincerity.
  • Hazou meets with Akane, probably chaperoned by Ino.
    • "I catastrophically, undeniably screwed up. There are plenty of reasons, but they aren't excuses. This is my fault for not being good enough and if nothing else I just wanted the chance to say that I am sorry before I face what comes next. If my guiding conscience can't bear me it will probably be for the best. I pray that you both find somebody better and more deserving. Perhaps the best thing I can do is to go out buying you the chance. Farewell."
 
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[X] Action Plan: Out of Character?

With none of my concerns addressed about Paperclipped's plan, and this plan looking very solid for its goals, I feel like this is the better plan right now.

edit: lo and behold
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Whiplash is Peak Performance

This seems pretty well thought-out. The only other thing I might include is running the Crusades by Cannai offscreen before presenting them to Kumokogo.
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I think having the conversation with Cannai is more important than having it with Kumokugo -- after all, he's the Boss with influence on the eastern side of the Seventh Path where the clans we can easily talk to are.
faflec said:
This is something that's going to take days, if not weeks, and I don't think we should be waiting to apply HOWS. Not that it matters anyway, since only Hazou and Kumokogo can actually approach the Great Seal.
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faflec said:
From my recollections, we wanted to test if the implosion seals would collapse the Dragons' lungs, correct? However, this is something that the implosion seals do when activated, not when destroyed; therefore, you will need to have Hornets/Arachnids do, and would require us to teach them how to make seals. Leading to the above issue.
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I didn't realize this would take so long.... would it be overstepping bounds to say that when we proposed the idea of using seals at the GS, some of the dogs were willing to teach the spiders to activate seals to help? With an FP, of course.
faflec said:
I'd recommend we deliver something tangible as per Kei's suggestion. I suggested organizing classes/meetings/something with the other members of Gouketsu (most notably Atomu, Reo, and Mai, but other ninja living on our lands, or even the civilians, should qualify). Personally think an introspective would be most appropriate here.

I think the best plan we can make RN is to do the HOWS and, while going on a multi-day journey to get to the Great Seal, introspect on Uplift and what it means.
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I acknowledge your preference for introspection, and think it's a reasonable belief, as the core thing I care about probing is Hazou-the-character's own motivations. However, Akane is a gem and is unlikely to take it badly if we approach with humility and treat the problem with due seriousness. More practically, having an external conversation keeps things moving forward, and we can use gathered/probed information for a highly complex social plan in future cycles.

Since we have wordcount, maybe a narrative structure to target is something where Hazou is introspecting as he's talking with her? Here's a draft of what that might look like, based on the other, more introspective plans (one, two):
  • For internal consideration:
    • We clearly want to make the world a better place for the masses.
    • Yet, we need boundaries to ensure that we don't lose our humanity.
    • Akane and Keiko are more idealistic, while Mari and Noburi seem more practical. What's our role in all this?
Would this fit?
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Is this something that needs to be stated? I'm not wholly against it, since it's not obvious to me which of inaction and explicit communication send the best signals, but by the same token I'm not sold on it either. What's your reasoning on why this is the better path?
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First of all, thank you very much for the detailed feedback! Second, this doesn't need to be explicitly stated, but it's to tie the conversation into the narrative of the previous one: Asuma said "that shit's dangerous, I ain't riskin' it", and Hazou considers the problem and comes back with "You're right, good call on your part. We'll try to do something less stupid, look at me not being stupid, anyway here's the rest of the update."

It can be removed, if you think it's unimportant.
Inferno Vulpix said:
This is a little presumptive on the assumptions that a) the HOWS operation will proceed as planned (and won't be immediately undone when the dragons return) and b) that the HOWS are actually sufficient to delay the apocalypse.

But more importantly, while having a rock sample is useful for analysis we still are not trying to reproduce the Great Seal. That kind of Sealing is far beyond any of Leaf's sealmasters, even working together. The rock is still useful, the metaphorical uninfused chakra ink of Great Seal style sealing, but our goal is to better understand what's wrong with the Great Seal and how it might be fixed.
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It presumes that, yes, because it keeps the ball rolling. If the HOWS operation goes wrong in an interesting way, I'm sure eaglejarl will have plenty of fun things to write. However, if all goes well, we get to reduce key uncertainties in our approach pretty quickly: 1) does the rock type matter/do we have any ability to make a difference on it, and 2) do we have any chance of making the fine-shaping component irrelevant or easy?

Hazou's comparative advantage is the IN and the ability to make Earth-element ninjutsu. Other sealmasters certainly have better calligraphy, and Orochimaru/Kagome most likely have better sealing. Replicating jutsu vs callig are in conflict, of course, but knowing our options on the Earth-element ninjutsu helps narrow down future options.
Inferno Vulpix said:
This scans too close to 'making excuses' territory for my liking. While it's true, and that sentiment is the centerpiece of my effortpost on the matter, opening with it in as many words sounds like 'it can't really be helped, these things happen' which sounds like deferring blame to vague unavoidable factors instead of ourself.

A better initial approach, I feel, would be to convey the following: "We definitely messed up. We were past our limits on due diligence and moral consideration and didn't even realize it. We should have recognized that and either surpassed our limits or relied more on the rest of Team Uplift for support."

Identify the mistake, own up to the mistake in no unclear terms, and then ask for forgiveness and support.

I haven't read the rest of the plans so I can't vote right now, but those are my thoughts on your plan.
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Acknowledged and reasonable. I'm worried that making an apology might put pressure on Akane to accept it, whereas I wanted to give her space to consider. Still, I think this can be worked around by being explicit. Here's an edit of the Akane section, with introspection from above:
  • Goal: don't invalidate her feelings or absolve Hazou, just set expectations and decide on next steps.
  • Internally: we clearly want to make the world a better place for the masses, yet our humanity fails us from time to time.
    • Akane and Keiko find Uplift more in the ideals, while Noburi and Mari are more practical. What should our role be?
  • First, we took the wrong approach with Haru because we failed to evaluate the situation morally. We realize this is wrong.
    • Uplift is an ideal, and when we couldn't identify the right action, we should have asked for help from the Team.
    • We're sorry, and grateful that you said something when we fail to live up to our ideals.
    • Don't pressure her to accept the apology.
  • Second, we need to take steps on Haru's actions. Since Akane sees more clearly on this issue, what would she recommend?
  • Unless Akane wants to engage any further, give her space after that.
Basic apology structure: Explain the situation, acknowledge the problem, regret + intended solution, sorry, thanks for patience.

On reflection, I like this section somewhat better. Unless anyone has any complaints, I'll implement this.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Kumokugo has to activate the HOWS, since she's the only one allowed on the Great Seal. We should specify that
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Hazou can, hopefully. He has "an hour, possibly two" to activate the seals. He can draw a seal with a supplemental and activate it with a supplemental, hopefully stashing it in a hiding spot with a standard for one seal per round, 20 seals per minute, so maybe ~2000 seals total?
 
eaglejarl said:
Once the scene ends the user must make a (Frozen Skein vs TN) roll, with the TN to be decided at the time based on QM fiat. If they succeed then they will wake up in an appropriate amount of time, typically days or weeks. After waking up they will have a permanent Severe consequence. If they fail the roll then they remain in a coma for an indefinite period. There are two Mori currently being cared for in the Garden of the Lost who have been there for decades.
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Since this seems to be a troublesome point wrt canon-complicity, may I suggest instead that any consequences incurred during this roll are permanent? This retains the potential for permanent Severe Consequences (as nobody would choose to fail that roll altogether) while also allowing someone sufficiently skilled at the Frozen Skein (and/or good at doing whatever makes the TN comparatively low) to routinely fight without having yet taken any debilitating injury.
Paperclipped said:
It can be removed, if you think it's unimportant.
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Nah, I just wanted to hear why you felt this would give off good signals, and what you said makes sense.
yet our humanity fails us from time to time.
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Something about this line still feels a little iffy, in the same direction as my initial objection (feels kind of like a 'these things happen' excuse, or a 'this is part of my nature and there's nothing we can do about it' falsehood), but the rest of the section I'm okay with.

[X] Action Plan: Whiplash is Peak Performance
 
Paperclipped said:
[X] Action Plan: Whiplash is Peak Performance
Word Count: 290

Seventh Path:
  • Declare (if necessary): We've produced enough HOWS to not be limited by quantity.
  • Prepare and test suitable ways of hiding the seals under rocks so the light doesn't show.
  • Go to the Great Seal and place the HOWS.
  • Take a sample of the rock near there (not from the Great Seal!)
    • Record details about the Great Seal material -- color, luster, texture, shapes.
Asuma:
  • Probably not chasing the Arachnid Scroll -- Rock's probably found it already with a facility there.
  • Dragon update: Apocalypse delayed, we have a rock sample to try to figure out how to reproduce the seal.
    • Does Leaf intelligence have any leads on this rock, or types of rock like it?
    • Does Leaf have precise stonecarving techniques that could be used to make seals out of stone?
Akane:
  • Goal: don't invalidate her feelings or absolve Hazou, just set expectations and decide on next steps.
  • Internally: we clearly want to make the world a better place for everyone, yet we've made plenty of bad choices on that path.
    • Akane and Keiko find Uplift more in the ideals, while Noburi and Mari are more practical. What should our role be?
  • First, we took the wrong approach with Haru because we failed to evaluate the situation morally. We realize this is wrong.
    • Uplift is an ideal, and when we couldn't identify the right action, we should have asked for help from the Team.
    • We're sorry, and grateful that you said something when we fail to live up to our ideals.
    • Don't pressure her to accept the apology.
  • Second, we need to take steps on Haru's actions. Since Akane sees more clearly on this issue, what would she recommend?
  • Unless Akane wants to engage any further, give her space after that.
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Removed testing implosion seals and having spiders activate the HOWS, both are unviable since learning to use seals is quite challenging for Seventh Pathers, and we haven't had the time to do so. Perhaps we can start now with the HOWS, and when we need to return to the GS next, we can test the implosion thing? Perhaps it will be a good lead-in to the crusade?

Also, updated Akane conversation (+ feedback on some wording) and did some minor wordcount optimization.

On Discord, we learned that the Great Seal might not be damaged physically, just the ground around it. That means that we 1) shouldn't take samples back (probably), and 2) might not need stoneshaping of any sort to repair it. Pending QM confirmation, I added details about getting non-invasive information about the material. I'll be up to update the plan in the morning for ~3 hours.
 
By Zeus and Hades, when I'm the one who notices how people are currently feeling more than anybody else the apocalypse is nigh...
 
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This is probably a stupid question, but has anybody ever brought up the possibility of simply asking Ami for advice on Ami-style training?
 
Nevermind. Let's go with "angry". Angry is a good default setting. If you haven't found something to be angry about you haven't searched hard enough.
 
Paperclipped said:
Second, we need to take steps on Haru's actions. Since Akane sees more clearly on this issue, what would she recommend?
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Velorien said:
"With that said, I imagine the most effective way of ameliorating the situation would be simply to surrender the decision of how to punish Haru to her, or frame it as a consultation if you believe that would come across as abrogation of responsibility. You have betrayed our shared ideals, and I can think of few better displays of contrition than to submit to the guidance of the Gōketsu moral exemplar, even at the price of your agency. I doubt this alone will be sufficient to restore her trust, but the Akane I know would not reject a petitioner seeking aid or advice, be she ever so hostile. Once she recognises the sincerity of your intention to redeem yourself, you will surely be able to use the opening for reconciliation in better ways than anything I can suggest."
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I feel it should be trivial to make simple suggestions on how to actually take steps on Haru's actions. Not just "how do we punish Haru in a way that dissuades others from trying?", but also "how do we keep other Gouketsu-affiliated ninja and civilians from doing anti-Uplift things without realizing?", which would provide suggestions for Akane according to Kei's recommendation.

My suggestion/idea:
  • We took the wrong approach with Haru because we failed to evaluate the situation morally. We realize this is wrong.
    • Uplift is an ideal, and when we couldn't identify the right action, we should have asked for help from the Team.
    • We're sorry, and grateful that you said something when we fail to live up to our ideals.
    • Don't pressure her to accept the apology.
  • (If Akane thinks it acceptable) We did have the thought of educating Gouketsu-affiliated ninja on Uplift, so that they know *these sorts of actions* aren't acceptable. What do you think? What other recommendations did you have?
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On another note, I get the feeling that one reason Akane's so pissed off is because she views "don't kill people who aren't directly attacking you" to be a very obvious core tenant of Uplift...and we don't. Saying "what should our role be" or "and when we couldn't identify the right action" ... I think Akane would say something like "do the extremely obvious thing and don't let people get away with wanton murder", then fuck off.
 
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faflec said:
"don't kill people who aren't directly attacking you" to be a very obvious core tenant of uplift
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Where was this mentality when killing the child predator?

Maybe it's different because Hazou was doing it to protect other people but Haru claims he was doing the same thing. (IMO he's just using it as a post-kill rationalization but he might not be.)

EDIT: Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong I just feel like this would've already come up
 
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