Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Maybe I should include a little bit of zalgoified text in my signature? Is that against forum rules?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Then Hidden Heaven should be absolutely perfect for you!
- Location
- USA
Well ideally we'd have dry docks where we would build the initial portions of our base. The first portions of our base would be built like actual barge ships, four or five of them as the foundations of the village where we would lift it up from. We could also have an actual boat where we would have business conducted on the surface. Most boats would be large enough for our village to grow from during the set up phase. And living on the water gives us fish as a primary food source.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Basic idea:
-Sneak into Mist.
--This is not really viable long term, but it'll work for a while.
-Flip other nin.
--Find people who are sympathetic to our plight and/or we have diplomanced into sympathy and/or have beef with how Mist is currently run. Have them join the conspiracy. With them to help, we can maintain the illusion a little longer.
-Have a coup.
--We get rid of Yagura. Since he's the sticking point for a missing nin trying to reintegrate into Mist. With him gone and with us having gained significant political power in the process, we can join Mist again, above board.
This would be simplest, of course, if there is already discontent with Yagura.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
I really like this idea, but honestly I think we can get something much more useful, and less prone to failure by inventing a reactionless thrust seal.
Place it on something, and it produces force in relation to some input parameter. (relative position of another control seal?)
That way we could just use PID controllers and overkill to make something that floats. It'd even be more resilient to various types of failures.
Place it on something, and it produces force in relation to some input parameter. (relative position of another control seal?)
That way we could just use PID controllers and overkill to make something that floats. It'd even be more resilient to various types of failures.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Yaaaaay PID controllers! I'm confused whether you mean "set up an in-atmosphere platform hovering on reaction less thrust seals", which I expect to have a significantly larger maintenance cost and be more prone to failure as it's subjected to varying atmospheric conditions, or if you're saying we should just skip living in the clouds and go straight to space?
Because that seems like a solid end goal, but we probably need to level our math skill quite a lot to make it viable. Or at least have shadow clones as disposable test pilots who can report back on our many trial runs
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
We don't need a flying village, we just need a Helicarrier. Mostly because a flying village needs some kind of food supply. Unless we can find air whales, or plant affinity people for ninja hydroponics.
- Location
- how about no
One of your proposals called for infiltrating the Academy to pose as students and then eventually graduate to be Mist ninja again.... if that's not long term, what is? Also, how long do you expect forming a coup d'etat to take? How many points in Deception do you think it will require?
How do we find them? How do we make sure they really do want to help us and aren't informants for Yagura? What do you think will be the necessary amount of Diplomacy to convince people to rebel?
How many combat dice do you think we will need in order to beat Yagura and all of his loyalists? How do we convince everyone that Missing-nin aren't a blight on a ninja village? What do we do if other people want us dead simply because we are missing-nin?
How do you propose we get the whole team this strong to pull this off?
Without detailed answers I'm not inclined to pursue this course of action over other, to me, more interesting alternatives.
- Location
- Staring into the void
- Location
- how about no
If we can make a seal that has an off and on switch (which I'm hesitant about because of the rules of Sealing way back when on the player knowledge doc) making a seal that points all of its explosive force in one direction would be amazing.
I'm not sure how we would control it since seals can't interact with other seals, but it has the potential to make spaceflight trivial.
Orbit also has the advantage of not requiring constant upkeep to maintain its general position. If we get high enough to necessitate environmental suits to wander outside of the complex and we are using the same propulsion systems as something capable of LEO or GEO, why not just go to space instead?
Space has asteroids we could mine with MEW and has orbital velocities to use for doomsday weapons. Furthermore, no ninjas that we know of have a spaceflight technique, but I'm sure there are plenty of ways for them to jump extremely high if not fly or glide long distances. Unless the state of math is higher than we anticipated, they also won't be able to hit a target in LEO easily, if at all. LEO also means that we could launch almost anywhere on the planet and with minimal fuss return to our station. A stationary platform floating in the sky would require longer travel times to get to.
I'm not saying a cloud city is a bad idea, in fact I'm ecstatic people are putting so much thought into it, I just don't see how it's better than an orbital station for a long term construction project. If we need practice with inventions, we could simply make zeppelins which would have the added benefit of being immediately useful for crossing borders effortlessly for trade or simply improved mobility.
zap lunch
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Honestly, with 6 months of R&D with Kagome, I suspect we could get this stuff sorted out pretty well.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
We need an estimate of how much sealing we need to make this feasible.
Sealing 40 is "Destroy the planet for the lulz" and Sealing 10 is "Undergrad with No Experience", so we have pretty solid bounds on skill needed. We need more accurate bounds.
Sealing 40 is "Destroy the planet for the lulz" and Sealing 10 is "Undergrad with No Experience", so we have pretty solid bounds on skill needed. We need more accurate bounds.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I was gonna say that they're currently designed this way, and then I realized that's not true at all and I have to go fix it.
Where's the sealing 40 figure from?
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
I'm too drunk to actually search, but I remember @eaglejarl posting a jokey omake about us destroying the world with sealing at Sealing 40.
Huh, in retrospect, I'm kinda drunk so Sealing 40 might not be so great an upper bound.
Huh, in retrospect, I'm kinda drunk so Sealing 40 might not be so great an upper bound.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
If it takes us Sealing 40 to destroy the world, I will be incredibly dissapointed in us all.
Hell, if it took us more than a slight modification of the seals we have right now to destroy the world, I would be incredibly dissapointed.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
The primary case I'm imagining right now is the "slight" modification of a barrier seal to NOT be immobile with respect to the earth and instead tear through it. Obviously that'd take a significant amount of doing, so it's not nearly so easy a thing as I make it out to be (for one thing it'd have to be able to withstand the force of the earth pushing against it).
- Location
- USA
You would also have to start it up on the correct side of the planet to not have it nope off into space without touching the planet
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Correct. Not insurmountable, though, if your goal was to destroy the planet!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Did you mean 44m diameter, or should those 22s be 11s? Surface area and volume use radius, not diameter.
Yeah! You could call it...I dunno, a 'shaped charge', maybe? ;>
That was @Jackercracks, and it was a joke with an indeterminate canonicity value.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
...I wonder if we can weaponize barrier seals as a measure to bisect our opponents using the power of MATH.
e: Actually... we should look into seeing if Keiko's good enough at throwing weapons to throw two kunai at a sufficiently steady angle to apply a barrier seal between them.
e: Actually... we should look into seeing if Keiko's good enough at throwing weapons to throw two kunai at a sufficiently steady angle to apply a barrier seal between them.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Shhhhhhh... I'm an engineer I promise
I actually just found that!
E: Fixed my fuckup
Long Term Project Proposal: Tengokugakure no Sato
"Village Hidden in the Heavens"
(Credit to @Cariyaga for the initial name idea and @MadScientist for producing a translation)
I've been mulling over what it would take for us to establish a (semi-)permanent base in the sky. I'm dividing this project into two broad categories (stolen from @Logos):
- The creation of a vehicle or vehicles capable of moving to the desired height and returning to the surface (don't have to be the same vehicle)
- The establishment of a structure at the desired height which is capable of maintaining its height for an indefinite period.
Part 1: Vehicle Design and ManufactureMost of the discussion on this point has centered on the construction of an airship or blimp based around the use of the Elemental Mastery technique Akane learned from Takahashi. The results are summarized here:
So it seems like this might really work. The main barriers to overcome appear to be:
@MadScientist has also suggested an alternative route using MEW to lift up a chamber of stone to sufficient height which hasn't been explored as fully, but which may make the second step easier.
- Getting Akane to EM 8.
- This will require 33 XP:
[*]Concentration 3 (6+6 = 12 XP)
[*]EM 6 (12+6 = 18 XP)
[*]EM 7 (18+7 = 25 XP)
[*]EM 8 (25+8 = 33 XP)- Obviously this trades off against other things we want her to be able to do, such as boost her social and primary combat stats, but may be worth it if we are in a relatively secure situation and the rest of the plan is feasible.
- Designing and producing the vehicle
- Putting together the balloon portion of the airship will probably be the most difficult, requiring us to get our hands on a sphere of relatively airtight fabric 22m in diameter
- This results in about 4*pi*112 = 1520 m2 surface area, enclosing 4/3*pi*113=5575m3, a little less than twice the most common size of hot air balloon according to Wikipedia and a little more than a quarter of the largest one I was able to find with a cursory Google search. If this proves prohibitively large, Akane can go up to EM 9 for just 9 more XP (total of 42) because of how the attribute caps are structured, which will help some.
- A point about air-tightness: apparently the best practice for hot air balloons is to use something called a French fell stitch:
- As far as material: supple leather? Supposedly cotton works? Do we need to invent nylon? Picking a material and getting enough of it will be one of the major challenges, since the raw labor problem can be ameliorated with clones.
- Modern day hot air balloons have vents to control how much hot air is kept in the balloon so the pilot can control rate of ascent and descent. With a combination of EM and storage-scroll ballasts, we probably won't need to worry about this.
- Putting together the carriage for passengers seems pretty trivial relative to the above - basically make a nice little wooden structure we can secure to the floatation component
- However, there needs to be sufficient structural support throughout the contraption that it will not tear at the points where the carriage is attached
- Could be a nice joint project for Kei and Akane to work on their relationship, combining Akane's mechancal aptitude with Keiko's bloodline to pull off some cool engineering and testing, with everyone contributing clones to help in the building process
2. ALL OUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US
Once we can get up high enough to be safe from pretty much whatever people on the ground want to throw at us (I don't recall anyone with the ability to throw jutsu 2 kilometers), we can start putting together a structure up there, since just having Akane constantly keep our airship afloat is obviously unsustainable.
Kagome has told us that the Five-Seal Barrier locks a sealed object of limited volume in place w.r.t. the earth and makes it indestructible for up to a month if none of the tags supporting it are damaged or moved.
My first thought was to make use of the maximum volume limiter and bring up a bunch of fishing nets with us to act as the foundations for our base, but I assume the fibers in those will count as part of a larger object to prevent us from truly absurd levels of munchkinry.
Instead, let's use a series of interlocking solid structures that support one another. My current idea is to have solid stone crosses with arms long enough that the support seals for 5SB can be placed on them to hold the whole thing immutable. I *think* Hazou can produce these using MEW, or if not can get better at MEW and do so. The limiting factor on arm length is going to be the mass we're able to transport, but it has to be at least 3m for 5SB to work.
E2: Thanks @1234qwerty for making me aware of this issue. The system as described above can only be extended along a single axis, since joining a new piece takes up two adjacent arms. The resulting platform would just look like this: XXXXXXXX
To be able to make a broad platform, I think you need to include a second set of crosses with cutouts halfway up the arms. these serve as crosslinks between the long chains. I'm pretty sure this also means that the arms of the originals have to be slightly lengthened so the crosslinkers can have slightly shorter arms that don't collide with other links, since the minimum arm length is still 3m.
If we can inscribe seals directly onto the crosses rather than relying on paper that might blow away, that may be a better option. The weird specification about where the cutouts go is to make sure that there aren't any crosses that will just fall out from under the structure if their seals fail, which would happen if we went the alternative route of having half of the crosses with all their cutouts up and half with them all down. You could also do 180 degree separation but that requires twisting crosses into place during construction rather than sliding them, so I'm not sure the geometry works out but if it did it would be even more secure during seal failure.
After the first couple crosses are in place as a stable platform, use either summoner blood exploit, massive storage scrolls, cheeky use of MEW, or repeated airship trips to transport or produce lots more up there. Once a framework is established we can throw nets or floorboards between the holes. Go through and refresh seals every couple weeks on a rotating schedule, so that there are always some fresh ones holding the whole thing up.
If this were to get turned into an actual hidden village, there should be places throughout the area with hot air balloons in case of emergency, and every child with enough chakra should be taught EM early so they can maybe help the hot air balloon they're in crash slightly less during an evacuation. We should also consider teaching a disproportionately large number of inhabitants enough sealing to allow them to maintain the system.
Questions to be answered:
E1: Initial quick calculation: as an example, granite has a density around 2750 kg/m3. At a height of 2km in my estimates above, we have about 1500 excess newtons of lift. That means we can haul up 0.054 m3 of granite. Modeling a cross as two rectangular prisms, the sturdiest one we can haul up at one time is about 6m*6cm*7cm. We could improve that by taking up less people and gear on construction trips, or by improving Akane's EM to 9.
- What kinds of fabrics exist in the elemental nations?
- Can someone with a summoner's blood and a summons' consent perform summoning?
- If so, how much mass can a summons bring back with it to their realm/into our realm?
- What's the biggest thing we can fit in a storage scroll using Hazou and Kagome's current abilities? Can we potentialy research a larger one?
- Even better obviously would be to Hiraishin them up but that seems like a bigger project.
- How much earth has to be around for the nonconservation thing to work for MEW? (i.e. if we haul up a rock slab, can we just make more rock when we're up there)
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Let me know what you all think!
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