Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Citrus]

What's the kind of time-line people are thinking here? I'm not sure how practical this merchant empire idea is, especially with the world trudging closer to possible oblivion with every day

1) Initially spend some time smoothing stuff out with the village + letting our teammates heal + developing Keiko's summoning stuff if it went well

2) Get in contact with Jiraiya and update him on rain + secret village + pangolin contract

3) merchant empire things (set up a number of bases, recruit, develop merchant skills, build routes, etc)

I see a lot of things that can stop us at 1 or 2. What if Jiraiya has some plans for us, like wanting us to infiltrate somewhere etc? What if he wants us to formally ally with leaf or something (summoning contract = substantial power on the table)? What if he said no to merchant empire because too much worldly influence?

I understand the merchant excitement, but wouldn't brainstorming he better spent on sooner things than later?

 

[MadScientist]

We still have trade goods. Most of them should be intact. We join an existing caravan, maybe one that passes a village we made a fort next to, follow their route.

Buy low, sell high, repeat until we have enough cash to hire middlemen to do trading and guards to go with them (and maybe 2-3 of us to keep an eye on things, assuming our stats permit it by then)

Once we get practice in Tea we move to mainland and do same thing there.

We can supplement initial funds by doing work. Hopefully not box hauling this time.

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I dislike the idea of joining a pre-existing caravan.

At the moment, we have 5-7 ninja (depending on whether Kei survives, and whether Yuno joins the party) and that's probably enough to be a major caravan on our own, considering that we can carry a huge number of storage scrolls between us.

If we recruit say, 10 civilian employees, then we can add another 100 or so storage scrolls, which means that we could carry more supplies than any non-ninja without even getting any beasts of burden.

We don't need to start small. We can start medium sized.

And if civilians can be taught to use seals then we can employ whole teams of mass-cargo-carrying middlemen right off the bat.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

We do have 26 points banked for her summoning training. That should get us another level or two in diplomacy, if that's what Takahashi has been teaching us this whole time.

 

[Muer'ci]

What's the kind of time-line people are thinking here? I'm not sure how practical this merchant empire idea is, especially with the world trudging closer to possible oblivion with every day

1) Initially spend some time smoothing stuff out with the village + letting our teammates heal + developing Keiko's summoning stuff if it went well

2) Get in contact with Jiraiya and update him on rain + secret village + pangolin contract

3) merchant empire things (set up a number of bases, recruit, develop merchant skills, build routes, etc)

I see a lot of things that can stop us at 1 or 2. What if Jiraiya has some plans for us, like wanting us to infiltrate somewhere etc? What if he wants us to formally ally with leaf or something (summoning contract = substantial power on the table)? What if he said no to merchant empire because too much worldly influence?

I understand the merchant excitement, but wouldn't brainstorming he better spent on sooner things than later?

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Re village, the deal was we take scroll and run. If we don't, I suspect a marriage will be the least of our problems. So we stay till Keiko returns, with Nobby healing (our) people in meantime, and then we leg it. Somehow. Fuck even knows how we're supposed to run from ppl who roll 2.5k for TM. might be time for stealth to shine.

Not sure if we want to sell out ppl who have so much knowledge on us *cough Takahashi cough* to Jiraiya. He'll probably be the one to find us first tho, and if he has a task for us we drop everything and do what he says.

I dislike the idea of joining a pre-existing caravan.

At the moment, we have 5-7 ninja (depending on whether Kei survives, and whether Yuno joins the party) and that's probably enough to be a major caravan on our own, considering that we can carry a huge number of storage scrolls between us.

If we recruit say, 10 civilian employees, then we can add another 100 or so storage scrolls, which means that we could carry more supplies than any non-ninja without even getting any beasts of burden.

We don't need to start small. We can start medium sized.

And if civilians can be taught to use seals then we can employ whole teams of mass-cargo-carrying middlemen right off the bat.

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We don't have experience with caravan-ing tho. Don't know good routes or prices or what sells where. Wouldn't it be better to see how one operates, first, before starting our own enterprise? And sure, we have ppl and scrolls, but not that many goods and little money. I'd rather start small just to see how these things go.

Re civs with seals, last we discussed this word was civs can't use storage scrolls. It was way back in Iron tho, and i won't go digging for that post while on mobile.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

It doesn't destroy itself on purpose. Surrounding air rushing in to fill the void destroys the seal, which releases the sealed air. So normal air, no air, normal air, twice as much air, all in the span of a second or so. The seal doesn't destroy itself, but for Kagome's purposes, the seal getting destroyed is Working
In future, if you ever feel the urge to use the phrase "city killer," please hold back on that urge until after we get answers on whether the prerequisite assumptions are correct.

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I have conflicted feelings regarding city killers (in the quest). Owning one or two (dozen) would be awesome, but the voting tendencies of the players means we'll probably never drop one :\

Also the crimes against humanity thing, probably.

Anybody want to play When Would It Be Ethical?

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Fun as figuring out an utter cheating skill S-Rank Qualification is, I don't think I want to get it by hiding our intentions from the GMs.
Beyond that, having citykiller bombs doesn't equate to S-rank by itself - S-rank requires more survivability - and if anyone else discovers them, they're certainly worth the attention of a couple of stealth-specialist jounin.

 

[Traiden]

I think one of our problems is that we have nothing no reference for our strength compared to the world at large. We don't have the backdrop of a structured rank system that a hidden village would provide to let us know how well we are doing compared to our peers. The fact is we do not have any peers aside from each other within our group, and we are as strong as each other. Sure, we each have things that make us a little better, but they are elusive to ourselves and not helpful over all.

How do we stack up against someone like Shikamaru, or how strong is Keiko compared to someone like Ten-Ten or Neji? If we could manage it we should try and join the Chunin tests, or something like it just so we can test ourselves against those who should be our peers. Go join a tournament for money with those we would consider our peer group.

 

[MadScientist]

We don't have experience with caravan-ing tho. Don't know good routes or prices or what sells where. Wouldn't it be better to see how one operates, first, before starting our own enterprise? And sure, we have ppl and scrolls, but not that many goods and little money. I'd rather start small just to see how these things go.

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That sounds mostly reasonable.

Although I expect we could easily aquire starting money or goods through doing odd jobs if we needed to.
And maybe the pangolins have something to trade. I think involving them in managing the company would be a good idea.

 

[Muer'ci]

I think one of our problems is that we have nothing no reference for our strength compared to the world at large. We don't have the backdrop of a structured rank system that a hidden village would provide to let us know how well we are doing compared to our peers. The fact is we do not have any peers aside from each other within our group, and we are as strong as each other. Sure, we each have things that make us a little better, but they are elusive to ourselves and not helpful over all.

How do we stack up against someone like Shikamaru, or how strong is Keiko compared to someone like Ten-Ten or Neji? If we could manage it we should try and join the Chunin tests, or something like it just so we can test ourselves against those who should be our peers. Go join a tournament for money with those we would consider our peer group.

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We can use Mari as a measuring stick tho, and others to lesser extent.
We know She rolls 18 dice for awareness, and her Taijutsu is comparable. She rolled stealth 2-3 times before. I can't recall the numbers rn but we could look them up. Same for her TM.

15 sounds like decent chuunin level, and we're getting there (some faster than others)

For peers, look at Kouta's and Yuno's rolls. Konoha 12 should be around that strong, give or take, depending on how genius makes up for younger age.

Oh, and there was that dead meat Hazou grinded like 4 months ago.

 

[eaglejarl]

Does Hazou have his own sealing language? If he does, can he make explosive seals and storage seals using that language or is he just copying Kagome?

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Yes, he does. Yes, he does make them in his own language.

On blanks: My understanding is that a blank is just a well drawn picture on a piece of paper that a normal human is able to reproduce accurately enough with a lot of practice. Is this correct?

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Yes.

When Hazou copies seals to memory just by looking at them, is he storing the hand movements of the sealmaster who crafted that seal or is he storing it as a picture?

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As a picture.

Seeing a seal allows him to reproduce the blank. Since it is a reproduction, it comes out in the original sealmaster's language. In order to turn it into a seal, Hazou needs to infuse the blank. Since the blank is not in his language, infusing it is highly contraindicated. He needs to reverse engineer the seal before he can safely infuse it. Having an existing blank gives him a major leg up on that process, but it doesn't make it instantaneous.

The Iron Nerve does not help him reproduce seals faster, it lets him reproduce them accurately. Most sealmasters need to make two rolls when producing a seal: one to draw the blank correctly, one to infuse correctly. Once Hazou has drawn a blank successfully, he never needs to roll to draw that blank again. This represents an enormous improvement in Hazou's survivability compared to most sealmasters.

The Iron Nerve does not allow him to vary the speed of an action. If he draws a seal very carefully, spending 15 minutes to get it right, then he can reproduce that seal correctly from then on, but it will take 15 minutes to do so.

 

[Muer'ci]

So what stops him from including "figure out the most time-efficient way to draw the blank" as part of research process? That can be reflected by increasing total research amount number, to represent extra effort spent on mastering that particular seal.

E: hell, make the "optimized" seal require as much research as baseline did. We'd need to research it twice, essentially, to get extra proficient. This way we have a choice between doing new stuff or perfecting old, but also the better we get at sealing the easier it is to improve it. Researching storage seal at sealing 20 is twice faster than at sealing 10 after all.

Of course there's a min time required to draw a seal, but it should be lower than average if common seal crafters roll twice and are therefore prone to being extra careful.

 

[Kiba]

There's books, right?

They have to be mass produced through printing.

What if we could use the printing press to produce blank sealing seals? For that matter, why aren't ninja doing it anyway?

 

[Muer'ci]

There's books, right?

They have to be mass produced through printing.

What if we could use the printing press to produce blank sealing seals? For that matter, why aren't ninja doing it anyway?

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It's not precise enough, maybe? Or seals like paint swirls from brushes?

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Honestly, I just want a mechanic that will eventually allow us to draw and infuse seals on people's back in the middle of a fight.

Stamps are probably the better avenue for research there. But needing only a brush (self-inking of course, Same can make it for us) would be so much more badass.

Admittedly, the real use for this would be churning out seals in bulk before we figure out a printing press.

 

[Muer'ci]

Looking at stamps on documents within easy reach... well. If they were seals, I wouldn't infuse them under threat of death. There's smudging and fading and ink distribution is kinda weird.

I'd shelf the idea of making seals in bulk till we have laser printers.

Still want to learn how to put seals wherever by touch, but that's a project for post-sealing 20

 

[ChronOblivion]

It might have been wise to invest in Diplomacy rather than Weapons. Just sayin'.

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Man this update cannot come fast enough.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Man this update cannot come fast enough.

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Seconded.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien : How do you feel about the level of ... let's call it enthusiasm. You're getting from us?

I haven't really been paying attention to the comments on your other work, and I'm curious how normal this is? Would being quiet about wanting to see your writing help you write more comfortably? Has the response changed as your writing has improved? By community? By type of work (quest, fanfic, original, joke)?

 

[jy3]

There's books, right?

They have to be mass produced through printing.

What if we could use the printing press to produce blank sealing seals? For that matter, why aren't ninja doing it anyway?

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Because getting a mass-produced blank wrong can melt a lot of faces, while getting a handmade seal wrong will only melt a few? Because wear on the equipment can make a previously good seal blank maker bad, which might not be caught until faces start melting or your sealmaster runs screaming into the night?

Because that was the last known line of research performed by the Village Currently Hidden Jashin-Knows-Where?

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Looking at stamps on documents within easy reach... well. If they were seals, I wouldn't infuse them under threat of death. There's smudging and fading and ink distribution is kinda weird.

I'd shelf the idea of making seals in bulk till we have laser printers.

Still want to learn how to put seals wherever by touch, but that's a project for post-sealing 20

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Point.

I'm going to lie out of my ass and claim that I used "stamp" as shorthand for a seal that burns, prints, projects, or otherwise imprints a different viable seal onto a surface.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Jackercracks: What would Kagome say about seal I/O? Once he stops screaming, that is.

Basically, I want to know what sort of input output methods he's used, seen used, heard of, or thinks might be viable?

Possible Inputs: configurable blocks on a seal design that are filled in before infusing, ones that are written after infusing, vision/camera, sound/microphone, punch-cards, temperature/thermometer, chakra based inputs, buttons, etc...

Possible outputs: point light/LED, patterned light/projector, sound, genjutsu-esque illusions, writing in ink, carefully patterned pulses of heat, etc...

In particular seals that change their outputs based on their inputs.

Please assure Kagome that we don't even intend to try these without his permission, we just want to get a better idea of what's reasonable for sealing to do at various skill levels.

 

[Kiba]

Because getting a mass-produced blank wrong can melt a lot of faces, while getting a handmade seal wrong will only melt a few? Because wear on the equipment can make a previously good seal blank maker bad, which might not be caught until faces start melting or your sealmaster runs screaming into the night?

Because that was the last known line of research performed by the Village Currently Hidden Jashin-Knows-Where?

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Wonder if you could make a seal to check for 'correctness' in not blowing up before actually using it?

 

[Citrus]

Wonder if you could make a seal to check for 'correctness' in not blowing up before actually using it?

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Huh. I don't think a Seal like that would be too difficult if it had to be specific (ie: basic explosive seal checker). Like it's specifically designed to do something to Seals that don't perfectly match the infused template.

Ex: Activate seal checker, place non-infused seal on the checker. If any lines are slightly off or don't match the template, seal destroys/sucks in/releases ink onto a significant portion of the Seal
Mk. 2: place infused seal on the seal checker. If chakra patterns don't match the template, release some water or something else relatively inert (it means you've encountered a bad seal, don't want to cause the bad seal to go haywire). Or something that allows you to otherwise check infused Seals.

The first version is very useful for mass production as it sucks the rolls for each blank creation into one roll (the seal checker itself). At the least it could work as a good way to do lots of trials on mass production techniques/seals.

Another note: we should definitely make sure Hazou gets a chance to look at the lock Seal that was placed on the true summoning scroll. Could be a variant of the Force wall seal (which could help increase its flexibility). Could be it's entirely own thing. Either way would be a great thing to keep in the Iron Nerve memory log for future (as at least that version is probably a little too difficult for us to deal with with target numbers around 750 or whatever it was

 

[Cariyaga]

...So I just realized Summoning is a way around one of the basic tenets of sealing. Specifically, we can use it (either with the Pangolins' help or by developing our own specialized summoning seal) to transport seals or sealed objects.

Aaaaand I just realized how the Yellow Flash did his thing. Welp.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Heh, I asked those mainly because I wanted to see if IO was a major barrier for a seal imprinter, seal checker, or a seal IDE.

Like, how awesome would a seal IDE be? type checking, integrated physics/chakra/seal simulation, test cases, version control. It would be awesome.

 

[MadScientist]

Heh, I asked those mainly because I wanted to see if IO was a major barrier for a seal imprinter, seal checker, or a seal IDE.

Like, how awesome would a seal IDE be? type checking, integrated physics/chakra/seal simulation, test cases, version control. It would be awesome.

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As far as output goes, we know that seals can display images, or at least characters.
Yamato used a seal that would display the number of tails Naruto had activated to:

Yamato

Edit: and reading that page, apparently when Yamato was in ROOT, Danzou ordered him to assassinate Hiruzen.

What the fuck, Danzou? Are you literally incapable of not making things worse?

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Assuming that wasn't canon being insane, that's a huge step. We just need memory, input, and timers.

 

[eaglejarl]

...increase sealing speed...

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Okay, @Velorien and I talked it out. Neither of us wants to deal with extra mechanics, so here's the deal: it takes a fixed amount of time to produce a seal and that doesn't change. For Hazou it's 5 minutes to create a basic explosive seal; it might be longer for more complex things, but if so we'll tell you.

Seconded.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien : How do you feel about the level of ... let's call it enthusiasm. You're getting from us?

I haven't really been paying attention to the comments on your other work, and I'm curious how normal this is? Would being quiet about wanting to see your writing help you write more comfortably? Has the response changed as your writing has improved? By community? By type of work (quest, fanfic, original, joke)?

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For my part I find it both flattering and energizing. The only problem I have is that this thread is way too engaging, and it can lead to me obsessively pounding Cmd-R instead of doing productive work. I've had to install LeechBlock on Firefox and Chrome to keep myself from being on the site during the day; I do check it from my phone, but that's easier to manage since it requires diverting from the laptop, picking up an object, etc -- that's just enough activation energy to let me break the habit.

As to how this compares to the rest of my work, I'd say that this has gotten a lot more discussion than I normally get. "The Two Year Emperor" and "Team Anko" got a reasonable amount of upvotes and discussion on Reddit, "Induction"(rational superhero) got rather less, my brain-candy parody fics get a few. This quest has been a much bigger response than I'm used to, and I really appreciate it.

(My theory is that it's because I'm working with Velorien; I'm having to stretch my writing chops to keep up with him, and his audience is getting pulled into the thread along with mine.)

@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Jackercracks: What would Kagome say about seal I/O? Once he stops screaming, that is.

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Could you add those to the 'questions that need to be answered' section of the player knowledge doc? Velorien is heading to bed but we'll get to them when we both have tuits.