- Location
- Yes.
I think this was the most recent talk.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- USA
[X] Action Plan: Internal Political Sausage-Making
On the subject of bioterrorism/spreading plagues: Most of the other people in the room have known Tsunade for years longer than we have, so if they aren't freaking out, then I think its okay to infer that she wouldn't be averse to it. Also the context fits with the Tsunade model we have, considering her subtle nationalism.
Then again, this is the same type of reasoning/modeling that made me think that one of the first things the Leaf would do after the Sinkhole Incident would be send out scouts, and Tsunade isn't here to comment.
With that in mind, @faflec what do you think of the idea of politely asking/mentioning to Mari/the rest of the council that Tsunade might not be okay with this? Because this seems like the type of asymmetric visibility (am I even using that correctly? lol) trap that EJ loves.
On the subject of bioterrorism/spreading plagues: Most of the other people in the room have known Tsunade for years longer than we have, so if they aren't freaking out, then I think its okay to infer that she wouldn't be averse to it. Also the context fits with the Tsunade model we have, considering her subtle nationalism.
Then again, this is the same type of reasoning/modeling that made me think that one of the first things the Leaf would do after the Sinkhole Incident would be send out scouts, and Tsunade isn't here to comment.
With that in mind, @faflec what do you think of the idea of politely asking/mentioning to Mari/the rest of the council that Tsunade might not be okay with this? Because this seems like the type of asymmetric visibility (am I even using that correctly? lol) trap that EJ loves.
- Location
- Potato land
For Haru, I'd honestly just take a direct, no-bullshit approach, like we did with Neji. List the reasons we want him, give him a quick tour of the estate grounds, and ask if he wants to change the world. He already distrusts Hazou, so impassioned speeches shouldn't be very effective, and he'll be on guard for some kind of catch. Making a rational, dispassionate argument as to why we're making the offer should calm him down. He'll expect us to try and exploit him, so telling him that, yes, we think he's more likely to take the offer because it benefits his family, should, somewhat counterintuitively, reduce his suspicions. If he expects the other shoe to drop, let's drop it intentionally. And no bullshit or tantrums. If he starts ranting at us, he can go fuck off. We're not just kids anymore, if he can't suspend his discontent for half an hour and hear us out like an adult, we don't want him.
Aya, I think we need to actually meet and interact with first. Honestly, she makes for a strange combination of character traits. Withdrawn and solitary, with seemingly no attachments to people, but a hard worker, vicious fighter and a connoisseur of the arts? Beautiful, but single? I sense some kind of caveat in all this, but without talking to her it's impossible to know. Like, why does she train so hard on her own? Does she want power for its own sake? For the village? For survival? What pushes her forward? What does she want?
Noda, we should just contract to hack something for us and see how that goes. We can also invite her to live at the compound if that's something we think she'd be open to.
In general, composing these elaborate engagement plans for people who we only know from Noburi's briefing and have yet to meet in person, is a bit premature.
Aya, I think we need to actually meet and interact with first. Honestly, she makes for a strange combination of character traits. Withdrawn and solitary, with seemingly no attachments to people, but a hard worker, vicious fighter and a connoisseur of the arts? Beautiful, but single? I sense some kind of caveat in all this, but without talking to her it's impossible to know. Like, why does she train so hard on her own? Does she want power for its own sake? For the village? For survival? What pushes her forward? What does she want?
Noda, we should just contract to hack something for us and see how that goes. We can also invite her to live at the compound if that's something we think she'd be open to.
In general, composing these elaborate engagement plans for people who we only know from Noburi's briefing and have yet to meet in person, is a bit premature.
Good points. I would make the following changes:
- Haru: Reason out why he would want to join us and how it would benefit him and his family.
- Aya: Interact with her and get to actually know her. What is her goal?
- Noda: Give her something to work on and assistance in getting off alcohol.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
I think you're misreading Haru. We absolutely can get him to rationally hear us out - in fact, his other defining character trait is that he has a very impressive degree of self-control.
The thing is, though, you'll be counting on his self-interest and abstract sense of justice in order to get him to think of us better, because that's what your appeal is structured to do, while in the background he fumes about how the clans could've done what we're doing at any time and by the way we're a rich clan boy too. You're trying to reason him out of a position he largely didn't reason himself into, and he doesn't have the kind of background or personality that something like that would work on.
The end result will be that Haru smiles and nods at all the appropriate times, thanks us for our time, and tries to find some way to refuse us, politely or not. After all, he already knows that being in a clan has benefits, and for all that we're doing some good for civilians, all we've presented Goketsu as to him is a clan with a nicer coat of paint. He won't give up what pride he has for benefits - see his reaction to team Goketsu asking for his henge - and even if we did manage to get him to agree by pressuring his dad or something, he probably won't even give a halfhearted effort until we come back and run through this.
Trying to appeal to reason will have a less obvious chance of failure - and a far lower chance of actually successfully getting him to work with us even half-heartedly.
Honestly you're probably right and I agree.
I doubt this is going to work. Noda Kaiyo hasn't been on mission one year and a half, and probably received commission requests in the meanwhile. Offering to let her live with us is not going to work because she doesn't have a strong motivator to join us; it would be easier to do nothing and get in more trouble.
Especially won't work for reasons I listed above.
"What is her goal" is probably the only necessary four words in that statement; the others aren't that important.
That might work...but why would she agree to work with us? We're not giving her a reason - we're not persuading her, we're ordering her without actually having the authority to order her.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Haru is a radical and a revolutionary. The way to recruit him has always been to show him that we are also those things while highlighting that while he is just yelling at the status quo we are breaking it. That we are going to change the world and he can either help us or be dragged into it.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Water Release: Acidic Replication Storm
The technique that led to the death of Morita Makaira and injury of Noda Kaido.
This technique requires a (50-100 cost?) stunt to use safely, and if it was widely known would be considered kinjutsu of the highest caliber. When used, it instantiates a cloud of acid at the target location. If this cloud of acid touches anyone with chakra high enough to use the technique, it casts itself again, using their chakra, remaining centered on them as a target if they move.
The cloud increases in AoE from the target and melee with them to the whole zone on the following turn, and starts dealing stress damage equal to the Effect on the turn that one is afflicted. Every subsequent turn that it is active, it deals an additional stress of damage. The first turn, it deals Effect, then Effect+1, Effect+2, etc.
To first target someone, it rolls at ARS+ARS Aspect Bonus, as it has no indication that its effects are occuring before they do.
The only thing known that stops this technique while active is a dip in water, or underground via techniques. It's possible that other techniques could stop it, but seals would be imminently ineffective unless proofed against acid. Waterproofing would only allow their use for the next few seconds before it was eroded away.
| Type | Attack | Strain |
| Element | Water | |
| Effect | 0-AB | |
| Duration | 30 seconds | +30 |
| Durability | N/A | |
| Range | 1 | +60 |
| Casting Speed | Standard | |
| AOE | n/a | |
| Advantage | Self-replicating Technique | +60 |
| Advantage | Increasing Damage | +30 |
| Advantage | Increasing AoE | +25 |
| Total Strain | 205 + effect | |
| Casting Cost | 41 + effect |
This technique requires a (50-100 cost?) stunt to use safely, and if it was widely known would be considered kinjutsu of the highest caliber. When used, it instantiates a cloud of acid at the target location. If this cloud of acid touches anyone with chakra high enough to use the technique, it casts itself again, using their chakra, remaining centered on them as a target if they move.
The cloud increases in AoE from the target and melee with them to the whole zone on the following turn, and starts dealing stress damage equal to the Effect on the turn that one is afflicted. Every subsequent turn that it is active, it deals an additional stress of damage. The first turn, it deals Effect, then Effect+1, Effect+2, etc.
To first target someone, it rolls at ARS+ARS Aspect Bonus, as it has no indication that its effects are occuring before they do.
The only thing known that stops this technique while active is a dip in water, or underground via techniques. It's possible that other techniques could stop it, but seals would be imminently ineffective unless proofed against acid. Waterproofing would only allow their use for the next few seconds before it was eroded away.
- Location
- Potato land
If what is required for Haru to agree is that we somehow flip his opinion of us completely in the span of a short meeting, then it's not going to happen no matter what. If your read on him is that he's this entrenched in his toxic mindset, then there's no point to the whole thing to begin with. If he can't be reasoned with enough to see the good we're doing, the cold and hard reality of housing and supporting hundreds of dispossessed civilians on our property for no benefit whatsoever, then he's not really worth the effort.
I'm honestly not even trying to pick the best strategy to get him to agree. I'm picking the strategy that will give us the most useful information about him. If he refuses as a result, good.
According to Noburi, she's in debt and wouldn't be against free lodgings.
Again, we barely know these people. Thinking about how we should best convince them to join is putting the cart before the horse. We need to first know if we actually want them. Are they a good cultural fit? Are they trustworthy? Do they share our ideals, or could come to share them in time? Will they accept Hazou's authority, not just on paper, but truly respect it?
You can only really figure this stuff out by interacting with them in various settings. As is, all of them would be useful for their skills, but not so useful that we should be willing to adopt them despite any red flags that may come up.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
- Location
- Yes.
Last-minute thoughts on MMKII's plan:
As for Noda, I'd actually get Hazou to talk about Hana, and how (when Hazou went missing) Hana went into a self-destructive drunken stupor; while this isn't something Hazou went through having the experience from the "victim" perspective could help Noda snap out of her funk, as Hazou would certainly be as sad about Hana's alcoholism as Morita would be Noda's.
I think we should be a bit more blunt about how we do things, and argue that the only way we're getting enough Jonin in time for the next catastrophe/invasion is by increasing the adoption limit for clans, which would allow previously-clanless ninja to gain access to clan resources and (usable) secrets which can catapult them into Jonin class.
This would be hard to implement, certainly: I don't doubt that most clans wouldn't actually give up their secrets and would likely still limit the resources they'd give to adopted ninja. But unless we're willing to artificially inflate ninja ranks and risk them dying on missions beyond their level, we need to make the ninja stronger as soon as possible.
I'm going to refer you to huhyeahgoodpoint's and roomba's thoughts on adoption candidates; both make good points on how to improve the adoption section. I'd also add that Akane should absolutely take point when it comes to dealing with Haru; she's probably one of the few that has his respect and can get the fact that we really are in favor of helping civilians through his brain.
As for Noda, I'd actually get Hazou to talk about Hana, and how (when Hazou went missing) Hana went into a self-destructive drunken stupor; while this isn't something Hazou went through having the experience from the "victim" perspective could help Noda snap out of her funk, as Hazou would certainly be as sad about Hana's alcoholism as Morita would be Noda's.
This reasoning seems...insufficient. The "ancient method of educating ninja" isn't really the clan, it's having ninjas train ninjas. Which is what the Academy does. Not to mention that a lot of the actual clans were seriously FUBAR'd as well, they don't have the time to actually train ninjas since they have their own estates to rebuild and people to heal up. Most clans would respond by arguing that we should just prioritize getting the Academy back up, which keeps them from having to share their clan secrets with people who they may or may not fully trust/have vetted.
I think we should be a bit more blunt about how we do things, and argue that the only way we're getting enough Jonin in time for the next catastrophe/invasion is by increasing the adoption limit for clans, which would allow previously-clanless ninja to gain access to clan resources and (usable) secrets which can catapult them into Jonin class.
This would be hard to implement, certainly: I don't doubt that most clans wouldn't actually give up their secrets and would likely still limit the resources they'd give to adopted ninja. But unless we're willing to artificially inflate ninja ranks and risk them dying on missions beyond their level, we need to make the ninja stronger as soon as possible.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which thing?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
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- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Because we don't want Mari to take point on this?
I, personally at this moment in Mari's character, don't want to have Mari take point against anyone we intend on cooperating with long-term. Sometimes I'm forced to concede to practicality; for example, Clan Council-related issues will require Mari to take point.
Right now, though, it is my opinion that Mari shouldn't be taking point on people we're trying to work with because her priorities will he to destroy or subjugate when we're really looking for a whole "mutual cooperation" angle.
I, personally at this moment in Mari's character, don't want to have Mari take point against anyone we intend on cooperating with long-term. Sometimes I'm forced to concede to practicality; for example, Clan Council-related issues will require Mari to take point.
Right now, though, it is my opinion that Mari shouldn't be taking point on people we're trying to work with because her priorities will he to destroy or subjugate when we're really looking for a whole "mutual cooperation" angle.
- Location
- USA
[X] Action Plan: Internal Political Sausage-Making (No Dog Scroll)
I don't think that is the way she operate. There's some subjugation, but also mutualism. The craftsmen wanting to work for the Goketsu not because of her seduction or blackmail, but because they genuinely like the Goketsu.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Any sufficiently advanced subjugation is indistinguishable from enthusiastic cooperation.
Well don't leave us hanging, did they?? 😄
So there have been various posts about the moral and logistical issues of starting a plague we can't control:
And numerous people worried about Tsunade hating the idea of uncontrolled disease:
Aren't all of these concerns ameliorated if Oro designs the biological attack such that it acts within reasonable constraints? Also can't we (read: Asuma) consult with Tsunade directly on what she considers acceptable, rather than trying to make assumptions about what she would or wouldn't countenance?
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Last minute edits along the lines of @faflec 's last post.
In general, I'm of a mind with Roomba on the issue that we shouldn't really be going in with complex strategies off the cuff. A first meeting with a bit of structure works for me though.
In general, I'm of a mind with Roomba on the issue that we shouldn't really be going in with complex strategies off the cuff. A first meeting with a bit of structure works for me though.
- Location
- Washington State
Relying on Orochimaru to do what we want instead of turning the plague into something horrific for the sake of "research" does not strike me as a good idea. Do you remember that the last time Hazou tried to suggest something to Orochimaru? He ended up literally shitting himself and passing out, and considered himself lucky.
I think it's best to treat him like a sleeping dragon - don't wake him up.
Consulting with Tsunade has two problems. From a selfish perspective, we want to nip this bio-warfare thing in the bud before anyone really grows to like this idea, since if they do, and Tsunade finds out Mari was the one who proposed it, that won't turn out well for us. Second, even asking Tsunade something along the lines of: "So when you say 'no biological warfare', is that a firm no or..." is... bold, to say the least.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Just to check: You do understand how voting works in thread, right? You've voted for this plan three times by my count: here, here, and then in the post I've just quoted above. You haven't edited or deleted the posts to remove said votes either, so you've always been voting for this plan since the first post I've linked.