- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
Is that your son or little bother? Haven't seen him in the thread yet
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Is that your son or little bother? Haven't seen him in the thread yet
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Huh, thats weird. Why did my post do that? Hmmm.
What I was saying: I was clearly referring to the next paradox clone in the lineage by mistake. Ooopsies!
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- Location
- USA
If Naruto isn't the most dangerous man in the world yet, he's going to be after we give him the pangolin jutsu and EM.
Aside from the fact that we don't need to?
They get paid as much as the seals is worth in the eyes of the tower.
- Location
- Pacific standard
God Naruto with EM is just silly amounts of broken.
Hey I wonder what happens if we have 100 narutos in an air tight force wall box all lowering the temperature? Negative temperature?
Because EM works with a strictly linear scale right? A couple degrees per level in it.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
We don't really *need* to sleep more than 4 hours a night either.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I must have missed the part where that happened....
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
- Location
- Yes.
I have no idea what I'm looking for.
Edit: *wakes up*
Never mind, I think this is what you're looking for:
Edit: *wakes up*
Never mind, I think this is what you're looking for:
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- Location
- Pacific standard
I remember something along those lines too, a sealed letter he left us in the will that gave us really good standing as sealsmasters. I dont remember if it was IC or an infodump though.
Edit: oof ninja'd
Edit: oof ninja'd
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- Location
- Yes.
^See the above edit, sorry. @eaglejarl
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I asked something like this a while ago (Specifically, the same person using EM multiple times) and the QMs says it doesn't stack. Because EM is already heckin powerful for what you put into it (at just level 10 Akane can make a zone 70 degrees Celsius and basically force everyone else to evacuate it, how's that for area denial?), I doubt the QMs would agree to interpreting EM in a way that would let four Narutos with level 10 EM liquify air.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Uhhh then what happenes if two EMs overlap, one positive one negative? Do people experience being 5 K warmer and 5 K colder at the same time?....
So turns out Akane has been the eldritch horror all along!
Edit: Okay so if the solution is that EM is kept across all shadow clone instances then we have our first hint for necromancy.
EM would have to be shared across some vector other than the mind or body, meaning the soul. Now we just need to find a couple hundred technique hackers to throw at it and boom j man is back baby!
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- Location
- Yes.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I read that as "most certified"in the quantitative fashion by virtue of us being approved to sell all of those. Not "most certified" in the qualitative fashion.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Doooooo eeeet!
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
E: this may actually be inaccurate, stand by
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- Location
- Yes.
So on a different note: @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail How is Akane's character sheet coming along, and is there anything we can do to help? Like, are we free to spend her 1.3k XP, xor...?
- Location
- Pacific standard
Shadow clones for Akane plox
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Hey @eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien, if you don't mind a setting question, how do loans and defaults work in Leaf?
There are a few models that I can think could conceivably apply. First for loans, here are some models that were used at various times in various places at various levels of social strata:
It is possible that some small and medium sized loans work in the style of #2, particularly between less sophisticated parties than large merchant houses and nobility. The low complexity would be appealing to parties who might not even be literate, or realize that it's a difficult kind of loan to get out from under because human nature is bad at saving.
Now for default:
The ancient and medieval world had a wide variety of means of handling defaults on debt. Much depended on the place and things got more complicated when powerful people were the borrowers. For secured debts things were straightforward, and the security was taken to satisfy the debt, but of course only merchants and aristocrats generally owned anything valuable enough to act as security. Sometimes and in some places, like much of the history of Rome, the common man could use labor as security. Defaulting on a labor secured debt could make the debtor essentially a slave for some specified period of years, with a maximum limit in law. (Five years in Rome, before the practice was eventually abolished.) Sometimes this kind of debt could transfer across generations.
Various forms of corporal punishment for regular people defaulting on an unsecured debt were pretty common in many places throughout history. Flogging, branding, or occasionally execution in some of history's most brutal regimes, like under Genghis Khan. Debtor's prisons were rare until much later, likely because the state wasn't eager to take on the considerable expense of imprisoning people who weren't a threat to public order. In Catholic parts of Europe excommunication was a possibility, which had the dire effect of making it extremely difficult for a person to do business with or marry anyone.
And of course this was all for legal debts; defaulting on debts from criminal organizations then could result in all sorts of horrors, mitigated solely by the criminals' desire to ensure they got paid somehow, unless they were the sort of ruthless criminals who believed it more expedient to write off the debt in order to 'make an example'.
When powerful people were involved in a loan things seem to have gotten more...situational. If a powerful person, like a king or high noble, borrows money from less powerful people, like merchants, then there was sometimes not a lot the less powerful people can do if the powerful person decides to repudiate the debt. Even if the debt was secured, courts often did not have the power to compel compliance from the crown or high nobles with their own private armies. The major consequence for the powerful person in these situations would generally be that no one would lend them money ever again, or would only do so for ruinous (sometimes 60% to 80% or more per annum rather than the more typical 15% to 40% with an average of around 25%) interest rates.
Things were similar for a king or government who borrowed money from abroad, with the rare exception of actual wars declared over defaulted debts. This was rare because a debt had to be enormous to justify the cost of a war, so when it happened the default was generally used as an excuse by a ruler that wanted a pretense for war anyway.
An interesting complicating factor in this is that when a king borrowed money for their government they often treated it like a personal loan. This was in part because in strong monarchies there was not a concept of the state as something separate from the ruler, but it was also a way for kings to bypass the need for a legislature to authorize debts and expenditures. This sometimes meant that when a king died creditors could have a difficult time getting paid.
Sometimes kings also essentially forced their inferiors to lend them money, or even take out huge loans and them give them the money. This did not make these kings popular people, but they often got away with it because they were the ones with an army.
I haven't been able to dig a lot of information up on nobility to nobility loans, likely because it was taboo in the West for much of history. Lending money was something christian nobles wouldn't dirty their hands with any more than they'd do manual labor. It's possible that in the early medieval period, before kings had enough centralized authority to prevent their nobles from going to war with one another, a major loan and default might have resulted in armed conflict. Taking another man's lands would have seemed like a good way to pay off a debt after all, making a default a perfect excuse for conquest. This would have been especially true if a weaker noble was the borrower, although a weaker lender could in principle get some friends together, promise them chunks of the borrower's lands in exchange for their help, and then go conquering.
Kings later passed laws against war in their lands because disputes like this had a habit of rapidly turning into massive civil wars, and because allowing nobles to concentrate power made them a far larger danger to the crown over time.
But I digress. Here's how I suspect things work in Konoha, feel free to do with it as you will:
The Hokage has rules against clans going to war with one another, and doesn't allow ninja to be subjected to corporal punishments over debts because attempting to do so to an entire clan would be likely to provoke armed resistance and result in lots of dead. That leaves what I think are the likely possibilities: a defaulting debtor clan would hand over whatever specified security in the loan contract to satisfy the loan, likely land, although it might be goods or something more esoteric like secret clan techniques. An unsecured loan might be handled by the tower levying a garnishment on clan income from mission pay until the loan was repaid, as the idea of levying income to repay a debt goes back to Roman times and they probably would have thought of it.
While I have your attention, I've been thinking for a few days that Elemental Mastery's mechanics might need a clarification.
The thread seems to have been interpreting Elemental Mastery as instantly setting the temperature of anything that enters the area of effect to the specified temperature of the area for no additional chakra cost.
This suggests that once the technique starts it is effectively a bottomless well of energy that somehow instantly sets temperature to a specific point instead of applying energy to change that temperature the way the technique starts out working. I would like to propose that this be clarified such that material coming into the area takes time to warm up or cool down, and if there's a lot of it it may take additional chakra to do so because the energy to change temperatures isn't coming from nowhere, it's coming from the ninja. One ninja boiling a whole lake probably isn't workable, unless maybe they have massive chakra reserves.
The downside of this proposal is that it's not as simple and straightforward to keep track of an area of absolute temperature, and if we eyeball it then effects are somewhat subject to QM judgment. If we really wanted to get simulationist instead of eyeballing it we could figure out a joules for chakra conversion based on the amount of energy needed to affect a degree of temperature change in a volume of air, and apply that to whatever came into the area. (The specific heat of water will make boiling it hard.) This probably wouldn't be as bad as it sounds for complexity load. The forum could just do the math for the QMs when it came up, like for boiling water plans or for the 'let's trigger a tornado because limitless energy' stuff.
I believe this clarification would keep the technique useful without making it a broken tool of city smiting and economic destruction.
There are a few models that I can think could conceivably apply. First for loans, here are some models that were used at various times in various places at various levels of social strata:
- The borrower gets a lump sum and is required to pay back a larger lump sum at some future date.
- As a modification of this form, the future date is 'whenever the lender feels like calling it in'. This is terribly exploitative and was rare, generally only used by organized crime against small borrowers who couldn't get money anywhere else.
- The borrower pays interest for the duration of the loan and then pays back the principle in one big lump sum at the end of the loan's term. This is a risky type of loan to make which is why we don't do things this way today, although it did have the advantage for a patient lender of the borrower often needing to take out another loan to pay off his old loan at much harsher terms because people are bad at saving money to pay off large lump sums.
- The borrower pays a regular amount for the duration of the loan that covers the principle and the interest by the end of the loan's term, with the contract specifying particular security for the loan or leaving it unsecured. This is fairly close to the modern way of doing things without the complex modern way of mostly paying interest at the start of the loan and mostly paying principle at the end. It looked like the Hyuga loan to the Hagoromo and the mortgage on the clan estate probably worked this way.
It is possible that some small and medium sized loans work in the style of #2, particularly between less sophisticated parties than large merchant houses and nobility. The low complexity would be appealing to parties who might not even be literate, or realize that it's a difficult kind of loan to get out from under because human nature is bad at saving.
Now for default:
The ancient and medieval world had a wide variety of means of handling defaults on debt. Much depended on the place and things got more complicated when powerful people were the borrowers. For secured debts things were straightforward, and the security was taken to satisfy the debt, but of course only merchants and aristocrats generally owned anything valuable enough to act as security. Sometimes and in some places, like much of the history of Rome, the common man could use labor as security. Defaulting on a labor secured debt could make the debtor essentially a slave for some specified period of years, with a maximum limit in law. (Five years in Rome, before the practice was eventually abolished.) Sometimes this kind of debt could transfer across generations.
Various forms of corporal punishment for regular people defaulting on an unsecured debt were pretty common in many places throughout history. Flogging, branding, or occasionally execution in some of history's most brutal regimes, like under Genghis Khan. Debtor's prisons were rare until much later, likely because the state wasn't eager to take on the considerable expense of imprisoning people who weren't a threat to public order. In Catholic parts of Europe excommunication was a possibility, which had the dire effect of making it extremely difficult for a person to do business with or marry anyone.
And of course this was all for legal debts; defaulting on debts from criminal organizations then could result in all sorts of horrors, mitigated solely by the criminals' desire to ensure they got paid somehow, unless they were the sort of ruthless criminals who believed it more expedient to write off the debt in order to 'make an example'.
When powerful people were involved in a loan things seem to have gotten more...situational. If a powerful person, like a king or high noble, borrows money from less powerful people, like merchants, then there was sometimes not a lot the less powerful people can do if the powerful person decides to repudiate the debt. Even if the debt was secured, courts often did not have the power to compel compliance from the crown or high nobles with their own private armies. The major consequence for the powerful person in these situations would generally be that no one would lend them money ever again, or would only do so for ruinous (sometimes 60% to 80% or more per annum rather than the more typical 15% to 40% with an average of around 25%) interest rates.
Things were similar for a king or government who borrowed money from abroad, with the rare exception of actual wars declared over defaulted debts. This was rare because a debt had to be enormous to justify the cost of a war, so when it happened the default was generally used as an excuse by a ruler that wanted a pretense for war anyway.
An interesting complicating factor in this is that when a king borrowed money for their government they often treated it like a personal loan. This was in part because in strong monarchies there was not a concept of the state as something separate from the ruler, but it was also a way for kings to bypass the need for a legislature to authorize debts and expenditures. This sometimes meant that when a king died creditors could have a difficult time getting paid.
Sometimes kings also essentially forced their inferiors to lend them money, or even take out huge loans and them give them the money. This did not make these kings popular people, but they often got away with it because they were the ones with an army.
I haven't been able to dig a lot of information up on nobility to nobility loans, likely because it was taboo in the West for much of history. Lending money was something christian nobles wouldn't dirty their hands with any more than they'd do manual labor. It's possible that in the early medieval period, before kings had enough centralized authority to prevent their nobles from going to war with one another, a major loan and default might have resulted in armed conflict. Taking another man's lands would have seemed like a good way to pay off a debt after all, making a default a perfect excuse for conquest. This would have been especially true if a weaker noble was the borrower, although a weaker lender could in principle get some friends together, promise them chunks of the borrower's lands in exchange for their help, and then go conquering.
Kings later passed laws against war in their lands because disputes like this had a habit of rapidly turning into massive civil wars, and because allowing nobles to concentrate power made them a far larger danger to the crown over time.
But I digress. Here's how I suspect things work in Konoha, feel free to do with it as you will:
The Hokage has rules against clans going to war with one another, and doesn't allow ninja to be subjected to corporal punishments over debts because attempting to do so to an entire clan would be likely to provoke armed resistance and result in lots of dead. That leaves what I think are the likely possibilities: a defaulting debtor clan would hand over whatever specified security in the loan contract to satisfy the loan, likely land, although it might be goods or something more esoteric like secret clan techniques. An unsecured loan might be handled by the tower levying a garnishment on clan income from mission pay until the loan was repaid, as the idea of levying income to repay a debt goes back to Roman times and they probably would have thought of it.
While I have your attention, I've been thinking for a few days that Elemental Mastery's mechanics might need a clarification.
The thread seems to have been interpreting Elemental Mastery as instantly setting the temperature of anything that enters the area of effect to the specified temperature of the area for no additional chakra cost.
This suggests that once the technique starts it is effectively a bottomless well of energy that somehow instantly sets temperature to a specific point instead of applying energy to change that temperature the way the technique starts out working. I would like to propose that this be clarified such that material coming into the area takes time to warm up or cool down, and if there's a lot of it it may take additional chakra to do so because the energy to change temperatures isn't coming from nowhere, it's coming from the ninja. One ninja boiling a whole lake probably isn't workable, unless maybe they have massive chakra reserves.
The downside of this proposal is that it's not as simple and straightforward to keep track of an area of absolute temperature, and if we eyeball it then effects are somewhat subject to QM judgment. If we really wanted to get simulationist instead of eyeballing it we could figure out a joules for chakra conversion based on the amount of energy needed to affect a degree of temperature change in a volume of air, and apply that to whatever came into the area. (The specific heat of water will make boiling it hard.) This probably wouldn't be as bad as it sounds for complexity load. The forum could just do the math for the QMs when it came up, like for boiling water plans or for the 'let's trigger a tornado because limitless energy' stuff.
I believe this clarification would keep the technique useful without making it a broken tool of city smiting and economic destruction.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It happens over six seconds, not instantly.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
It explicitly doesn't do that. Did you read the mechanics?
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I did read the mechanics, I don't think you two understand my objection.
"Effect: The user can raise or lower ambient temperature of a fixed area by 5 °C/level over a few seconds. The insides of objects and creatures are not affected directly."
It is possible to read this such that the effect initially takes a few seconds to get up (or down) to temperature, and then anything that enters the area is instantly made that temperature as long as the jutsu is in effect. This is utterly broken in several ways and that is why I would like the clarifications requested. Things that enter the effect should take a while to get up to temperature, and heating lots of new stuff up (like water, which has a very high specific heat) should probably require more energy.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That's not really how we've been assuming it to work, though, to my knowledge. It doesn't take that kind of thing to be disabling at the scale of temperature we're talking.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I am 99.999999% sure this isn't the intent from the reading. If you run into an EM effect after the fact you'll likely be pretty toasted due to the ambient air being 100 C or something, but thats because the air is literally hot enough to burn you (minorly perhaps depending on degree of exposure) upon entry.
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