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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Rihaku said:
There may also be clans that can be bribed with less than R2,000,000 / month, though maybe not directly. R24 million / year is nearly six times the size of Clan Goketsu's entire Clan Benefits, there may be clans on the margin willing to flip sides for, say, 100% of their Clan Benefits in cash per year for five years.

As it stands, Kagome alone can easily maintain the entire Clan's standard of living (incl. the mortgage) with wealth to spare, especially if we include the royalties he receives on Skywalker production from other Chunin Sealmasters. But his surplus output is not enough to buy substantial influence in the game of thrones, so at least one of your big ventures will have to work.

This was brought up before, but you really should see if the other clans (especially Sarutobi) would be willing to shoulder some of the bribing cost, as the position of Hokage is extremely lucrative. If he's not willing to assume the costs directly, you could at least try to wring some loaded exclusive contracts out of the Kage's discretionary budget (and thus, on top of your Clan Benefits) from him.
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How's the math work on Kagome making seals for money?
 
TaliesinSkye said:
How's the math work on Kagome making seals for money?
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Just going off the market price of those seals...

Assume he makes Chunin seals and so these sell at the Chunin seal element rate, that he spends 4 hours a day a month on this.

[R760 * 12 ] * 4* 30 = R1,094,400 per month.

Not bad for a few hours before breakfast and after dinner each day. Hazou can probably assist this greatly if he bumps up Calligraphy and commits a few hours a day here and there to being a printing press.

Fiddle with the numbers as necessary.

E: Of course we're better served attempting some of our more esoteric moneymaking schemes as well...
 
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[x] Action Plan: Disheartening Lack of All-Consuming Horror (Original Character Donut Steel)

The pact is sealed. Let the Turtles too join Goketsu. Soon, they will be joined by the Snakes and Dogs (also seriously, dogs? If you're gonna be a clan of badass extradimensional fighters, you gotta be the Hounds).
MMKII said:
E: Of course we're better served attempting some of our more esoteric moneymaking schemes as well...
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Wouldn't "we" in this case be sending a few clan members to try the SALTGOD plan while we hold the base printing cash?
 
@faflec

  1. Has there been an onscreen statement of how many sealmasters there currently are in Leaf?
  2. Has there been an official QM announcement about it?
  3. How sad am I that I can't recall this stuff myself / grateful am I that you're here to outsource to?
 
30 sealmasters does seem pretty high. That averages out to more than 1 per noble clan, while the Kurosawa were notable for having an average of 1. (Leaf has better education and yada yada...)
 
TaliesinSkye said:
How's the math work on Kagome making seals for money?
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See this post.

MMKII said:
Just going off the market price of those seals...

Assume he makes Chunin seals and so these sell at the Chunin seal element rate, that he spends 4 hours a day a month on this.

[R760 * 12 ] * 4* 30 = R1,094,400 per month.

Not bad for a few hours before breakfast and after dinner each day. Hazou can probably assist this greatly if he bumps up Calligraphy and commits a few hours a day here and there to being a printing press.

Fiddle with the numbers as necessary.

E: Of course we're better served attempting some of our more esoteric moneymaking schemes as well...
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I believe your "seal elements per hour" number of 12 is a bit high, assuming Kagome is making seals near the limit of his seal-crafting ability. Hazou can probably achieve those numbers but non-Kurosawa have to be a lot more careful and spend a lot more time on seal verification. 6-8 elements per hour is probably more realistic, unless Kagome has some sort of sealcrafting acceleration stunt - which could well be the case, since his character is defined in part by throwing around excessive numbers of seals.

Shard said:
The Nara probably, they are quite rich.
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As they are likely to have the highest # of Sealmasters as well as the most intelligent ancestors (investors of their hereditary wealth), it's quite possible they're the second richest or even richest clan in Leaf. Speaking of which, we can now calculate the rough value of Keiko's bride price (assuming Jiraiya & Shikaku both got a reasonably fair deal):

1) Losing Keiko will deduct roughly R910,000 from the clan's benefits per year
2) Gaining Keiko will add roughly 5 times that sum (~R5 million) to the Nara per year (As she's pulling from the 70% pool instead of the 30%, and the founding clan headcount is also low due to Senju, Uchiha only contributing 1 active duty ninja each)

Net Present Value of 1) + 2) @ an annual discount rate of 9% and assuming an ~average survival curve of 12 years would be R42.8 million according to this NPV calculator.

3) Keiko's value as the Pangolin Summoner + Pangolin scroll added to clan assets
4) Keiko's value as a Mori Bloodline holder
5) Estimated economic value of Keiko's contributions not related to 3) or 4)

These are a lot harder to calculate, 3) especially as it includes the value of Pangolin combatants (multiple jounin at high levels), Pangolin trade and Pangolin techniques (acquired through trade or missions). I'm going to tentatively say it's roughly at the economic value of four clanless jounin plus the value of the pangolin gold contract that existed at the time the marriage was arranged, but with a hefty discount rate to account for the capriciousness and situational-ness of Summoning Contracts. The value of the techniques is immense but is handwaved into the relatively generous Pangolin trade calculation.

Net Present Value of 4 Clanless Jounin (R910,000 * 4) + Pangolin Trade (Moderately larger than the mortgage, we'll say ~R10 million / year) @ an annual discount rate of 20% and assuming a more conservative survival curve of 8 years = R52.3 million

Assuming 4 + 5 combined is worth about half of that, the total bride price would be in the vicinity of R121 million, though all of this is in the form of hours, favors, and other non-monetary (or perhaps just non-liquid? They may have given lands, properties, stakes in companies etc) benefits.

Alternatively (and I think this is more likely), Shikaku may have paid 50% of the NPV in favors and hours to be owed immediately and the other 50% to be paid out over time (but without discount rates, and adjusting for inflation) every year that Keiko remains a member of the Nara in good standing.

Hazou's hand in marriage is also quite valuable, as any founding clan that acquires him would also benefit from 1) + 2), plus his potential income as a Sealmaster and his ability to make Sharingan babies. Assuming a 50% chance he makes Chunin and a 20% chance he makes Jounin Sealmaster, Hazou's marriage NPV is even higher than Keiko's. Kagome's hand might be even more valuable still, since he is already a Chunin Sealmaster and gets royalties from the Skywalker production of other Sealmasters.
 
Rihaku said:
See this post.



I believe your "seal elements per hour" number of 12 is a bit high, assuming Kagome is making seals near the limit of his seal-crafting ability. Hazou can probably achieve those numbers but non-Kurosawa have to be a lot more careful and spend a lot more time on seal verification. 6-8 elements per hour is probably more realistic, unless Kagome has some sort of sealcrafting acceleration stunt - which could well be the case, since his character is defined in part by throwing around excessive numbers of seals.



As they are likely to have the highest # of Sealmasters as well as the most intelligent ancestors (investors of their hereditary wealth), it's quite possible they're the second richest or even richest clan in Leaf. Speaking of which, we can now calculate the rough value of Keiko's bride price (assuming Jiraiya & Shikaku both got a reasonably fair deal):

1) Losing Keiko will deduct roughly R910,000 from the clan's benefits per year
2) Gaining Keiko will add roughly 5 times that sum (~R5 million) to the Nara per year (As she's pulling from the 70% pool instead of the 30%, and the founding clan headcount is also low due to Senju, Uchiha only contributing 1 active duty ninja each)

Net Present Value of 1) + 2) @ an annual discount rate of 9% and assuming an ~average survival curve of 12 years would be R42.8 million according to this NPV calculator.

3) Keiko's value as the Pangolin Summoner + Pangolin scroll added to clan assets
4) Keiko's value as a Mori Bloodline holder
5) Estimated economic value of Keiko's contributions not related to 3) or 4)

These are a lot harder to calculate, 3) especially as it includes the value of Pangolin combatants (multiple jounin at high levels), Pangolin trade and Pangolin techniques (acquired through trade or missions). I'm going to tentatively say it's roughly at the economic value of four clanless jounin plus the value of the pangolin gold contract that existed at the time the marriage was arranged, but with a hefty discount rate to account for the capriciousness and situational-ness of Summoning Contracts. The value of the techniques is immense but is handwaved into the relatively generous Pangolin trade calculation.

Net Present Value of 4 Clanless Jounin (R910,000 * 4) + Pangolin Trade (Moderately larger than the mortgage, we'll say ~R10 million / year) @ an annual discount rate of 20% and assuming a more conservative survival curve of 8 years = R52.3 million

Assuming 4 + 5 combined is worth about half of that, the total bride price would be in the vicinity of R121 million, though all of this is in the form of hours, favors, and other non-monetary (or perhaps just non-liquid? They may have given lands, properties, stakes in companies etc) benefits.

Alternatively (and I think this is more likely), Shikaku may have paid 50% of the NPV in favors and hours to be owed immediately and the other 50% to be paid out over time (but without discount rates, and adjusting for inflation) every year that Keiko remains a member of the Nara in good standing.

Hazou's hand in marriage is also quite valuable, as any founding clan that acquires him would also benefit from 1) + 2), plus his potential income as a Sealmaster and his ability to make Sharingan babies. Assuming a 50% chance he makes Chunin and a 20% chance he makes Jounin Sealmaster, Hazou's marriage NPV is even higher than Keiko's. Kagome's hand might be even more valuable still, since he is already a Chunin Sealmaster and gets royalties from the Skywalker production of other Sealmasters.
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Do ninja ever do matriarchal marriages, or do people always wed into the husband's clan?
 
eaglejarl said:
Legal implications of the above
The money paid from the Tower to the clans is a fixed pool and awarded on a per-ninja basis. That means that the payments are zero-sum.
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Interesting. There have been quite a few deaths of jonin recently, not to mention probably a fair amount of clan ninja. Since legally that extra money freed up by their deaths can't go to clan ninja or clanless jonin, that means it's going into the discretionary fund. Which means that out of the two major battles that we've had recently, the real winners are the clanless genin and chunin, as they should now be getting paid much more than they had been previously (though probably still not much) as far as equipment funds go. Kind of like after the bubonic plague when there were tons of people dead but the surviving peasants actually had their quality of life improve because labor was suddenly in short supply.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Interesting. There have been quite a few deaths of jonin recently, not to mention probably a fair amount of clan ninja. Since legally that extra money freed up by their deaths can't go to clan ninja or clanless jonin, that means it's going into the discretionary fund. Which means that out of the two major battles that we've had recently, the real winners are the clanless genin and chunin, as they should now be getting paid much more than they had been previously (though probably still not much) as far as equipment funds go. Kind of like after the bubonic plague when there were tons of people dead but the surviving peasants actually had their quality of life improve because labor was suddenly in short supply.
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The way it's arranged, wouldn't the amount paid out per clan ninja increase if the tower gets the same income with fewer clan ninja alive?
 
The king Chad said:
Sooooooo......you get a free pass when you Establish a clan and afterward come under to limit.



...


So we need to organize all the clanless into a giant superclan and absorb that into the Goketsu...

:evil:
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Ami: Gotcha covered! ^_^

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TaliesinSkye said:
The way it's arranged, wouldn't the amount paid out per clan ninja increase if the tower gets the same income with fewer clan ninja alive?
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I was under the impression that the amount paid out to clan ninja was fixed, based on population of ninja in the clan instead of how much money there is to pay them. I could have read it wrong though. If it's a percentage of the total, then yeah the real winners are the surviving clan ninja.
 
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So, something that's stuck with me is that if you want someone suspicious of you to stop looking, you just need to convince them they've already found what they're looking for.

In light of our grand designs to become unimaginably wealthy and effectively take over Leaf in all meaningful matters, it might be prudent to conceal our plans there with an easier-to-discover and ultimately harmless conspiracy. After all, if people think they've found the Goketsu Conspiracy, and it's all about subverting Konoha culture to deny the likes of the Hyuuga popular support, then they might be more likely to miss what our real plans are.

So here's what I'm thinking. We start the Goketsu Cultural Conspiracy with the purpose of taking every non-treasonous cultural norm that the Hyuuga would clutch pearls at and spreading it throughout Konoha. Get contacts to spread rumours or talk about certain topics. Have larger contacts set up events about those norms, and fund other contacts to make and sell relevant items (books, for instance). Have all of these connections scattered just below the surface, so that people investigating will see relatively obvious connections and, with a little digging, the rest of them. And then we go three layers deeper for the goals we actually want to keep secret.

The sorts of things we'd be advocating wouldn't necessarily be good or bad (though nothing says we can't support positive messages with it too), just things that run contrary to Hyuuga tastes. Secret dance parties with rock'n'roll music seals. Bardic tales espousing the evils of stuffy formality and the goodness of passionate spontaneity. Ever more scandalous rumours about various figures, and people talking about it in ways that keep the narrative muddy or even supportive.

More than just an edge in OPSEC and guiding Konoha culture, to be frank, this would be hilarious. We could spread meta-rumours about the conspiracy itself, complete with wild fantasies about the endgame of it. Mari could look Hiashi in the eyes and express "Everything you think we're doing is true. Everything." without saying a word. We could learn to lean into the rumours about us that we can spin into positive traits, and relax by plotting yet another 'abomination upon Konoha and its culture' to give to two of our contacts and leak to three others. It basically gives us an artistic canvass the size of Konoha to paint madness upon, which would not only give the QMs fun antics to write, but make the Hyuuga despair and give the Goketsu loose control of Konoha's culture.
 
Hmm. For the purposes of selling seals can we consider Hazou Chunin? (for math purposes) Since he can mass create seal blanks for Kagome to infuse. (In fact from an efficiency standpoint Kagome should only infuse seals Hazou draws, since he is faster and has no verification time.)
 
eaglejarl said:
Urbanites (farmer and not) > Daimyo >
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Does this include Leaf urbanites? And does this mean that cities in Fire essentially don't have feudal or otherwise nominally independent rulers (like mayors)?

eaglejarl said:
Yes, it was. Y'all made us set our spoon drawers on fire making a detailed economy, so you don't get to faflec at us with things from when we were trying to be relaxed
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Just to make sure: This means that beyond the mandatory tax there is no incentive to make any seals other than the ones a sealmaster has the easiest time making. This is especially true for skywalkers since they can't be sold to anyone but the Tower. Best moneymakers would be a useful specialty seal personal to the sealmaker that he managed to get a license and buyers for. Barring that, explosive seals and nothing else.

Also, how are genin, chūnin and jōnin level seals differentiated from each other? Could Hazou just scribe seals that Kagome purposefully avoids and give them to Kagome to sell as his own? Because till now Goo Bombs are the only seals where it actually makes a difference.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
We start the Goketsu Cultural Conspiracy
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I'm in. Incidentally,
Ami said:
Trouble is, apparently Leaf has more than one strong candidate for the hat, and the funeral can't take place until there's a new Hokage, so either way I'm going to have to kill some time here. Any cultural revolutions you want to introduce, any secret societies you want to found, I'm your gal.
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We should involve Ami in the first-level conspiracy. (Don't tell her about the deeper level, of course.)
 
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Rafin said:
Just to make sure: This means that beyond the mandatory tax there is no incentive to make any seals other than the ones a sealmaster has the easiest time making. This is especially true for skywalkers since they can't be sold to anyone but the Tower. Best moneymakers would be a useful specialty seal personal to the sealmaker that he managed to get a license and buyers for. Barring that, explosive seals and nothing else.

Also, how are genin, chūnin and jōnin level seals differentiated from each other? Could Hazou just scribe seals that Kagome purposefully avoids and give them to Kagome to sell as his own? Because till now Goo Bombs are the only seals where it actually makes a difference.
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I get the impression that the payment is dependent on the seal, not on the rank of sealmaster (unless it's a Goo bomb or something like that), because you don't want your jounin sealmasters producing explosives when they could be making skywalkers.
 
Before assuming Haregumo's debt, or not, shouldn't we investigate their characteristics, what they used it for and their likeliness of being able to repays it?

Should/could we jerk them around like the Hyuuga did? Why didn't the Nara/Akimichi/Yamanaka bloc bought them if their vote in Hokage, a major event, could be secure so straightforwardly?
 
Aodyssey said:
Before assuming Haregumo's debt, or not, shouldn't we investigate their characteristics, what they used it for and their likeliness of being able to repays it?

Should/could we jerk them around like the Hyuuga did? Why didn't the Nara/Akimichi/Yamanaka bloc bought them if their vote in Hokage, a major event, could be secure so straightforwardly?
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Probably because
1)It's a massive amount of money
2)It's not really that important for them, i mean, they would prefer Asuma, but Hiashi taking the hat wouldn't be the horrible bad end that is for us.

But i concur on investigating everything about them, considering this could the perfect chance to create a solid alliance with the Hagoromo clan.
Just imagine...the HUG alliance(Hagoromo-Uchiha-Goketsu), even better than the ISC.

Also, should we try to see if Asuma is going to horribly murder all of us? Just to be safe?
 
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