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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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faflec said:
I mean that the act of giving flowers meant to represent loss and/or mourning of a loved one at what ought to be a joyous union might in and of itself be offensive.
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What if she opens the seal anyway when we give it to her? Maybe it would be better to just give her the flowers before or after the wedding?
I also don't see all that much of a difference in giving her the flowers which are visible for a couple seconds, and giving her the flowers which are inside a seal the whole time. Symbolically we're still giving her sad flowers during a wedding, and paranoia-wise it might look bad if we give her a storage seal and tell her not to open it during the wedding.

Asking Mari to help us pick the flowers also might end up with us accidentally proposing to her as a way to tie our clans together in these trying times, but now that Akane's off the table I don't really see this as such a bad thing. :p
 
I'm still turning over how I want my plan to look like, but for now I'll put in a vote for

[X] Action Plan: Impure World Domination

while I figure it out.
 
Ooh, this looks interesting too!
[x] Action Plan: Impure World Domination

Noumero said:
Suggest salvaging Keiko's relations with the Pangolins by claiming Hazou ordered to end the deal.
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It's probably been mentioned by someone else, but I don't think this would work very well. Eventually the pangolins will find out that others in Leaf can make skytowers, and be mad that she won't make a deal with those people.

Noumero said:
Discuss Ami Favours with Mari.
  • Update Mari on our experience with her in Mist.
  • If investigation into disguises bore fruits: suggest exchanging her that information for a favour.
  • Discuss the following favour ideas:
    • Politics:
      • Open-ended: "Work with me to maximize my personal influence on Leaf politics."
      • Specific: Assist the Gouketsu against the Hyuuga bloc.
    • Social:
      • Open-ended: "Maximize my social competence over the next half-a-year".
      • Specific: Arrange for IN social training.
    • Which one is more important? Take specific or open-ended options?
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Again, this has probably been brought up, but in case it hasn't, should we ask Keiko too? She is Ami's sister and is extremely possessive of her, so I doubt she'll be happy with us planning something involving Ami without notifying her. Furthermore, she would be better able to estimate Ami's capability to accomplish a given task than we are. In fact, didn't she partially chew us out last time for not including her in planning the first Ami date?
 
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Sentient Tree said:
Again, this has probably been brought up, but in case it hasn't, should we ask Keiko too? She is Ami's sister and is extremely possessive of her, so I doubt she'll be happy with us planning something involving Ami without notifying her. Furthermore, she would be better able to estimate Ami's capability to accomplish a given task than we are. In fact, didn't she partially chew us out last time for not including her in planning the first Ami date?
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Nahhh if we are going to respect Kei's Agency in dissolving the pangolin deal she can respect ours
 
faflec said:
@Noumero I understand perfectly if you disagree, but is the discussion on the Ami meeting all that necessary? If we're doing it in another plan anyway, wouldn't it be better for us to just have a brief note to schedule a meeting with her and when that comes around, put what you have here into that plan? It saves on word count here and now, and we can put other stuff in it...like giving our allies our condolences, which we really should be on top of, like, yesterday.
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@Noumero wasn't sure if you noticed this, reposting for you.
Sentient Tree said:
It's probably been mentioned by someone else, but I don't think this would work very well. Eventually the pangolins will find out that others in Leaf can make skytowers, and be mad that she won't make a deal with those people.
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Possible solution: Hazou, in his position as clan head, forbids Keiko from trading seals with the Pangolins at all. As in, even if she buys them from other sources, she still can't give them over without directly disobeying her clan head.
Sentient Tree said:
Again, this has probably been brought up, but in case it hasn't, should we ask Keiko too? She is Ami's sister and is extremely possessive of her, so I doubt she'll be happy with us planning something involving Ami without notifying her. Furthermore, she would be better able to estimate Ami's capability to accomplish a given task than we are. In fact, didn't she partially chew us out last time for not including her in planning the first Ami date?
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Seconded.
 
Oneiros said:
Nahhh if we are going to respect Kei's Agency in dissolving the pangolin deal she can respect ours
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Erm, I guess? But wouldn't we benefit from involving her? I didn't think this would be so much a case of Keiko forbidding us from talking to Ami, so much as a case of her wanting to be involved and having a useful perspective on the matter.

faflec said:
Possible solution: Hazou, in his position as clan head, forbids Keiko from trading seals with the Pangolins at all. As in, even if she buys them from other sources, she still can't give them over without directly disobeying her clan head.
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That's a good idea. We might want to get Shikamaru to also order her not to, because I think she's technically under his command now, since she's a Nara. That means we'll have to tell him about the deal, but I'm sure fear of Ami (not to mention Keiko) will keep him from attempting to set up a similar deal through her.

Edit:
The pangolins may ask her to put pressure on us/Shika to resume the deal. We could probably let her give a halfhearted effort to convince us, and just say no each time. At least that way she could honestly tell them she tried.
 
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Sentient Tree said:
Erm, I guess? But wouldn't we benefit from involving her? I didn't think this would be so much a case of Keiko forbidding us from talking to Ami, so much as a case of her wanting to be involved and having a useful perspective on the matter.
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Real talk I think Kei is to emotionally compromised when it comes to Ami. Her opinions will be inherently problematic to any goal of extracting influence from Ami
 
Oneiros said:
Real talk I think Kei is to emotionally compromised when it comes to Ami. Her opinions will be inherently problematic to any goal of extracting influence from Ami
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We did the thing last time, and we already know how it ended.
Emotionally compromised or not, it doesn't mean we get to unilaterally exclude her.
Bad behavior as a response to bad behavior doesn't make things better, in fact it's the thing that make everything exponentially worse.
So let's respect her agency, and simply call her out when she's wrong, showing her how it's possible to do thing decently.
 
I think the following update we should talk to the clan at large about some stuff and ask Kei if she can summon Pank the Tank so that we can let him know that as the new clan head we're putting the skytower shipments on hold indefinitely until our moral concerns are satisfactorally met (so perhaps never).

A principled man-to-man "I respect the tessera and consider you my friends, but I can't stand by and watch you kill and enslave thousands with my invention anymore." sort of thing.

We'll keep our end of the deal re: technique secrecy of course. We wanna deal in good faith. Likewise, we would be fine returning to the pre-skytower deal.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
We did the thing last time, and we already know how it ended.
Emotionally compromised or not, it doesn't mean we get to unilaterally exclude her.
Bad behavior as a response to bad behavior doesn't make things better, in fact it's the thing that make everything exponentially worse.
So let's respect her agency, and simply call her out when she's wrong, showing her how it's possible to do thing decently.
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We are not excluding her. When we get closer to finalizing a deal we can decide to include Kei or not. We don't have to check with her every time we make a move. If we start more serious negotiations we can decide if we want to include her. This all depends on how she decides how her relationship with the Clan will be moving forward
 
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Lord Marshal said:
We did the thing last time, and we already know how it ended.
Emotionally compromised or not, it doesn't mean we get to unilaterally exclude her.
Bad behavior as a response to bad behavior doesn't make things better, in fact it's the thing that make everything exponentially worse.
So let's respect her agency, and simply call her out when she's wrong, showing her how it's possible to do thing decently.
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Bad behavior would be using her feelings for Ami against her. The way it ended last time was on her, too - because even in MfD-world jumping straight to death threats against your peers (as we saw in Jiraiya's meeting) is completely unacceptable.

In the meantime, we have a Hat to put on either Asuma or Chouza, and we need to meet ISC to figure out which one it will be.
 
Oneiros said:
Real talk I think Kei is to emotionally compromised when it comes to Ami. Her opinions will be inherently problematic to any goal of extracting influence from Ami
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I agree that she is emotionally compromised with regards to Ami, but I disagree that this makes her less useful in this case. If we were attempting to harm Ami or otherwise act against her interests, then yes I believe we would be well served by keeping Keiko out of the planning. However, what we are doing is not against Ami's interests, will not harm her, and may even be in her interests (for example if we end up asking for something that indirectly keeps Keiko safe by helping the clan). I don't think Keiko will hinder us in this. Rather, I think she will prove useful to the discussion.

Edit:
For one thing, Keiko can give us an idea of exactly what Ami can accomplish by telling us things Ami has done before. She may also be able to tell us exactly what this favor will be worth for Ami, although her estimate may be biased downward due to her low self esteem and the fact that the favor was given because of her. Still, it would be a good baseline. If we're asking for something that is way too small (example: asking her to swing one vote when she could instead win us the hat completely), I think we want to know. And Keiko is the one who can tell us that.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
[X] Plan Talk To Keiko and Ino
  • Sit down and have a discussion with Keiko
    • We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
      • Specifically, what your exact objections to our previous stance was. We were under the impression that your displeasure was due to the increased suffering and death caused by our selling weapons, not the act of selling weapons to the Pangolins in and of itself.
      • Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Is there anything that can be salvaged?
      • Making use of noncombat seals, perhaps?
      • Do you have similar objections to selling combat seals to the Toads?
    • You are entitled to have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins. We'd appreciate a chance to discuss whether there are better options than just cutting them off cold turkey, though.
      • We should consider ways to present it to them, such that the damage to your relations with them is minimized. Perhaps we could blame the decision on Leaf, now that Jiraiya's not in charge?
      • Leaf is about to fins itself hard-pressed to deal with its ability to suppress chakra beasts in its territory. We know that Summons have strict population controls - maybe we could offer to allow them to go hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
    • We've not followed up on several money-making ideas that we should probably look into now
      • Salt Empire
      • Ice transport
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari for advice on a flower bouquet of mourning.
      • Intended meaning should be "we do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Go ask to see Ino.
      • If she is not taking visitors, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • If she is taking visitors, offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou would like to know what we did lose.
      • If she's up to it, we can talk shop.
        • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, the Nara, Yamanaka, and Akimichi - supporting for the Hat?
        • Is there anything else we can do to help?
        • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
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I have changed the plan as recommended/requested here:
Vecht said:
@Deathbybunnies Can you also add a non-apologetic, non-grovelling, non-accusatory discussion with Mari?
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faflec said:
@Deathbybunnies maybe this could be added to your plan?
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It probably needs some word count pruning, as that's not a strength of mine. It's currently sitting at 434 words, which is pretty pants; on the other hand, it's actually only covering three scenes, it's just getting a bit wordy with them.

@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien If we were to cut this plan into two separate plans, each handling a scene or two only, would that be a benefit or negative for your spoon collections? I'm rather tempted to cut it in half and entitle the second half "Plan Talk to Ino and Keiko Part 2", with the heavy implication that next vote the latter will be put forward.
 
ContextBot said:
You expect that Ami would "just" dye her hair? I bet we would end up in a worse chain of events than after Hot springs.
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"So you know how I dyed my hair the other day? Well, I was reading this amazing thing called a broadsheet while I was waiting for for my hair to dry, and one of the adverts gave me a great idea.

"So now I've got good news and better news! The good news is that I called in a favour to get us signed up for a trip to the world's greatest hot spring resort. Their free escort is coming tomorrow. The better news is that my friends from back home have agreed to house-sit, and they'll be arriving around the same time."
 
Cariyaga said:
Would doing that out of character as I thought was proposed actually affect Hazou's characterization?
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I, at least, am convinced it would affect his characterization because it would make the players consciously consider others' likely reactions while planning, and the players' understandings' of the characters they're interacting with through Hazō would them improve over time because it would be getting actual attention.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
It probably needs some word count pruning, as that's not a strength of mine. It's currently sitting at 434 words, which is pretty pants; on the other hand, it's actually only covering three scenes, it's just getting a bit wordy with them.
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Not perfect, but we're getting there. I'll edit more in a couple hours.

Word Count: 351
  • Talk with Keiko:
    • We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
      • What are your exact objections to our previous stance? We've been under the impression that your displeasure were from the carnage caused from our trade, and not specifically her involvement in the affair.
      • Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Can we salvage anything?
        • What about using noncombat seals?
      • Do you have similar objections to dealing with the Toads?
    • You have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins, but we'd appreciate the chance to discuss whether there are better options.
      • How should we present this to them to minimize damage to your relations? Maybe we could blame the decision on Leaf?
      • Leaf's going to have some issues with local chakra beast suppression. We know Summons have strict population controls...maybe we could let them hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
    • Possible other money-making ideas we should look into:
      • Salt Empire
      • Ice transport
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari to help arrange a flower bouquet.
      • Intended meaning: "We do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Ask to see Ino.
      • If she's not available, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • Otherwise:
        • Offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou'd like to know what we did lose.
        • Talk shop if she's up to it.
          • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, ISC - supporting for the Hat?
          • Is there anything else we can do to help?
          • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
 
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