Fuckall chances. Hiashi is opposed to us directly. Our only current leverage on the scale he would be working at as hokage are <Naruto + Tsunade> and <Hokage votes>. The former will remain the case even if he becomes hokage, and aren't the right kind of tool for this kind of compromise, while the latter is meaningless for reasons of it's direct usage, simply from cross multiplications. Friendly Hokage * Chance of vote suceeed + Hiashi Hokage * chance of vote failure >>> Concessions from Hiashi, no matter what the chance of sucess is. If our chance of sucess is low, we won't be able to get shit from him, and if it's high, we should be always going for it. The only situation this would make sense is if Hiashi thinks we have a significantly better chance of getting the hat than we do.

I think you may be missing an important item here, which is:

"Village is united against outside threat >>> Village falls apart when confronted with outside threat."

The Will Of Fire actually matters.

Also, now that I think of it - when have we ever actually spoken to Hiashi?
 
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Why is there no "crying" rating?

Honestly though, awesome chapter. So many emotions.

Hazou fucked up. And, since much of what he said and did was based on the top plan after "Trust Velorien", we kind of did as well.

the priest has been bribed
browsing religious scripture
I'm very curious how priesthood and religious practice looks in Leaf. The only thing we've seen mentioned before this chapter was that the various minor gods and spirits have officially been replaced with the Will of Fire, though unofficial places of idol worship still exist outside of Leaf.

Hey, maybe she can tell me why my disguise skills have gone rusty all of a sudden."
Finally someone who noticed that something is off. I don't count Kagome because he didn't need to "notice" any subtle weirdness anymore than he needs to "notice" that the sun is connected to the day and night cycle.

I am both very excited and very worried of Ami meeting with Kagome and having a full conversation. On the one hand it would be the start of large background plot movements we have even less influence on than the Akatsuki arc. On the other it will be mind-blowing to witness.

@huhYeahGoodPoint I like where you're going.

[] Action Plan: Ino, You Know (Edit: Changed my mind).

He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
Do we know that? It seems like a presumptuous claim on our part. We haven't ever met him and Ino at the same time. We haven't ever talked with him about her or with her about him. We haven't even talked about him with anyone else.
But Hazou would like to know what we did lose.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here.



As I see it, we have one main priority here. The well-being of our family. That includes ensuring our survival of course. And the election of a Hokage that is amenable to us continuing to thrive in Leaf. But it also remains of high importance to actually see to the mental and emotional health of our family members. And lately we have sacrificed that a few times too often for things that were more geared towards what should be a secondary priority in my opinion. Namely, the maximization of power and agency in order to accelerate the accomplishment of Uplift. Or to put it in CK2 terms, we should switch our character focus to "Family" ASAP.
 
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At this point I am, like, 75% sure that the summon plane is a classic 4X game. Either substantially or quite possibly literally. That raises worrying implications for the others, including the human path.



Well then, I am not sure why we went through all the trouble figuring out how to contact Ami.

Neither am I.



... I think Hazou's general problem is that he has crap emotional intelligence.

1: He failed to discern that the problem is not "the pangolins are killing people", but "I am personally responsible for a large share of the pangolin deathcount."

2: He failed to control his own emotions in response to Keiko's admission she was pulling out of the contract. He saw the loss of the tool first, not the person.

3: Similarly, he's walked all over Mari's depressive state, because he needs the tool more than the person.

4: This is at least partially our fault as voters. Look back at our debate over "Is Naruto going to take over the clan and ruin everything forever?". Look at the ridiculous lengths a whole bunch of us have been willing to go to attempting to get the snake scroll or a favour from AMI. We're terrified of losing the balance of power, and it's making us grasping and irrational.

I propose the following, even though it's probably extremely dumb, because AFAICT we have not yet actually considered the possibility:

If we were to attempt a deal with Hiashi right now, what's our chance of negotiating a reasonable compromise?

For a lot of people espousing "tolerance" and "goodwill towards everyone", we sure haven't done fuckall to actually attempt to make peace with our actual enemies.

Hey, I've been raising that and even the possibility of offering a Naruto-Hiniata marriage for ages now-

-oh, right, you can't hear me.
 
... "She might be wrong and that would make her feel bad."

Please reread your quote.

Keiko is not worried about maybe being wrong, she is stressed about being in conflict with Hazou. Either way this could resolve, she loses something important - either her trust in Hazou or her newfound faith in herself.

You're frustrated with Keiko, and that's coloring your reaction to her.
But she could not stand here and listen to his justifications. If they were weak, it would only hurt her more for trusting him. If they were strong, it would only hurt her more for trusting herself.
I agree that's not what she was upset about primarily, but it was an explicit reason for not having the discussion. More importantly, I didn't make any sort of statement as to why she was stressed, what I said was that we can't not have the conversation because she won't enjoy it. We need to sit down and have a calm, rational discussion, even if it's not super pleasant for anyone involved, because we can't just default to letting Keiko make large decisions without even discussing them with anyone else.

We should probably frame it as us accepting she has the final say here, and laying out why we think she should change her mind. If she isn't convinced, then she's right - it's her decision.

If we actually did this and she did change her mind, we could probably play off her previous ending of the deal as a tactic to lead into this new deal.
 
Hey, maybe she can tell me why my disguise skills have gone rusty all of a sudden.




But in all seriousness, I think we need to play the Sharingan babies card. Economically we're probably within one order of magnitude of breaking even, gaining the sealing license and losing the Pangolin gold, politically we're on the ropes as Shikamaru so kindly (seriously, he did us a massive solid when he spelled out everything) pointed out to us, and personally...who the fuck knows where this ends up?

Can we please go meet the Uchiha, because Sharingan babies is a huge card for them and we are, if not bleeding support, at least in the same ballpack, which is a bad ballpark to be in in the first place.
 
At this point I am, like, 75% sure that the summon plane is a classic 4X game. Either substantially or quite possibly literally. That raises worrying implications for the others, including the human path.





Neither am I.





Hey, I've been raising that and even the possibility of offering a Naruto-Hiniata marriage for ages now-

-oh, right, you can't hear me.

Discord chat, or did I miss your earlier posts?
 
Thoughts from reading the chapter: oh my god I'm so happy for keiko. Obviously cold stopping the seals trade isn't optimal, but we can still work around it. It makes sense that the concept of MAD wouldn't fly very well with someone who hasn't seen nuclear wars prevented by it, especially when its explained by someone who hasn't seen nuclear wars prevented by it.

As long as keiko is still willing to work on the pang-toad-snek alliance fundamentals, no complaints.

I am pleased that my prediction of npcs thinking we're crazy for wanting to invite Ami was vorrect, along with my prediction of Ami being here.

Oh Jashin, the common born clan is a connundrum. Its exactly the type of change that we want to implement, but is likely to also cause us heaps of trouble. I. Love. It.
 
I am opposed to this. Whatever else Hazou does with that time will be more valuable in the immediate future and extended outwards than sealing research would be.
If the plan had anything happening in the morning than I might agree. We can literally get a few productive hours that we would Just waste otherwise
 
Here's a list of things I want to see done, in order of how important I feel that they are:

  • Sincerely apologise to Keiko.
  • Have a serious conversation with Keiko about both our own and her mistakes regarding the whole Pangolin debacle and hurting each others feelings with our flaws in general.
  • Depending on @Velorien's clarification regarding our culpability, have a conversation with Mari. Clarify our priorities. Clarify our command. Support her emotionally.
  • Finally meet ISC and Sarutobi to coordinate politics.
  • Officially adopt Akane and her parents.
  • Scribe seals and monetize them.
  • Maybe have our adult clan members meet Ami. More for the sake of us the players than for Hazou.

Hey, I've been raising that and even the possibility of offering a Naruto-Hiniata marriage for ages now-
That's up to Naruto. We can certainly suggest it, but if he hasn't thought of it himself he is either not as politically competent as Jiraiya, the QMs and Naruto himself have implied or he has a major bias against anything Hyūga related.
 
I am opposed to this. Whatever else Hazou does with that time will be more valuable in the immediate future and extended outwards than sealing research would be.
Only to the extent that the time isn't being wasted otherwise. In this situation, Hazou could spend the time before meeting Ino to do this, as he's not really doing anything else.

It could of course be argued that Hazou could instead read up on stuff like Seventh Path Politics and the such, which I could agree with. But at the same time, it might be more efficient to switch between tasks every couple hours so Hazou doesn't develop fatigue and lose efficiency. Assuming that's a thing. Is that a thing, I don't know 100% that that's a thing.
 
Where can I find the current plan?

Also how do I get to the discord for the quest? Are us regular plebians even allowed in?
 
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@Cariyaga @Oneiros As a compromise, can I propose we phrase it as using only excess free time on sealing research. If anything it would take Hazou's mind off of all the thinking about how he fucked up with Keiko. We have a lot of it in our plan and Hazou is only human and not talented at this politics stuff either.

At first I agreed with those who were sceptical of surrendering to Naruto. Now I can't wait to finally be allowed to hand the reins over to him. It's stressful and, warranted or not, I keep feeling like we are trampling our female family members underfoot while taking the male ones for granted.

Can we please go meet the Uchiha, because Sharingan babies is a huge card for them and we are, if not bleeding support, at least in the same ballpack, which is a bad ballpark to be in in the first place.

Mari very diplomatically mentioned that we shouldn't sell our unborn babies lightly. I very undiplomatically agree. Just because we don't know them yet doesn't mean we won't love them. Who the fuck knows what kinds of dreams and aspirations our little daughter will have? Do we really want to set her fate in stone before we get to embrace her into the Goketsu family? It's time to get our priorities straight.
 
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"You mean this, don't you?" Shikamaru said miserably, looking at the resolve in Hazō's face. "You honestly believe that there is a scenario in which you are able to lawfully communicate with the sovereign head of a foreign state, and further facilitate the arrival of an agent of that state in Leaf, without so much as informing the relevant Leaf authorities, much less securing their permission. Gōketsu, how can you so contest the Hyūga in desire for your own clan's annihilation?"

"You're exaggerating, Shikamaru," Hazō said with wavering confidence. "For a start, there's no Hokage. No one can approve or disapprove of us sending this message, especially given that we're the Hokage's clan. If anything, until the elections, we have a better claim than anyone else."

"Gōketsu," Shikamaru said. "May I apply the power of the Clear Communication Technique?

"I do not intend my evaluation to in any way reflect my opinion of your moral character, nor of the effort you must have expended to arrive at this point, nor of the decisions made. It is intended only as a neutral analysis of your position, focusing on aspects I believe you have hitherto overlooked or underappreciated.

"The power of a clan, its very nature, derives from tradition, backed by countless generations of accumulated knowledge, and expressed through unique abilities refined over those generations. At the present time, the power of the Gōketsu, its very nature, derives from a man who is no longer with us, backed by at most a single generation of knowledge, and expressed through abilities refined over a decade at best. With him gone, your clan consists of a gifted commoner, three shinobi who left their clans before they could gain more than the bare rudiments of those clans' power, and Gōketsu Kagome, common-born until proven innocent. Your special assets are limited to a summoner and two sealmasters, proportionately powerful but trivial in comparison to any clan worth mentioning, which could wipe you from existence with numbers alone.

"Most damning of all, in the public eye, you are the alien scions of Leaf's greatest enemy. You simply have not had the years necessary to overwrite that perception. You are the weakest voting clan, and with the Fifth lost to us, it is only fear of legal precedent that keeps you from being stripped of your vote or even your clan status. To those who would advocate this, what are you but convenient fuel for Jiraiya's power grab, absorbed in defiance of both morality and law because of your concentrated strength, helpless dependence on him, and guaranteed lack of ties with his rivals?

"Relatedly, you underestimate the amount of security afforded you by your positive personal relationships with influential figures of the younger generation such as myself. Were we as a collective to be your enemies, as would be expected given your origins, or even simply disinclined to interact with you, you would quickly cease to exist as a political entity, no matter your legal status. Conversely, our tolerance influences the mood of others who have yet to decide whether to reject you as foreign matter. To fully appreciate this, I invite you to imagine a world where every clan heir shared Neji's values."

After a second's pause, Shikamaru leaned forward a little, interlacing his fingers below his face.

"I would note, in the spirit of the Clear Communication Technique, that it is incumbent on me as Nara clan head to make my decisions with this information in mind. You are suddenly worth far less to the Nara than you once were. It is fortunate for both of us, but especially for you, that the Nara unfailingly honour our commitments, and thus will proceed with the marriage irrespective of reevaluation, and thereafter acknowledge the bond it creates. There are clans, and not necessarily those which first spring to mind, that would have seriously considered terminating the engagement with the sudden death of the Fifth. Nevertheless, I must give serious consideration to which paths our alliance opens up for us, and which ones it closes, in a completely different way than my father had to.

"To finish off, please understand that I personally wish to be on your side. Keiko is the best bride I could have hoped for, and this one time I will admit that I find myself feeling a certain amount of affection for you two as well. While the rest of your family frankly intimidates me, I do not feel actual hostility towards them. As Nara Shikamaru, I wish for you all to prosper and find happiness. As clan head, these feelings are irrelevant.

"With all of this in mind, I urge you to tread lightly. Even if you successfully recruit Naruto as you must, you are far more vulnerable than you seem to understand."

"That bad, huh?" Noburi asked after a long, long second.

"That bad," Shikamaru confirmed.

We deserved that. This thread simply does not appreciate what dire straights we're in.

As Shika says "[To the rest of leaf] you are the alien scions of Leaf's greatest enemy.", and this is why we can't push for Mari to take the hat. Not only is it a high-risk high-reward strategy, but it's recipe for unrest we simply do not have the ability to deal with.

Even simple malicious compliance towards Mari's orders would ruin us, much less the covert rebellion Hiashi would pursue1​.

1: I suppose it could be overt rebellion too, but ninja.​

Look at it from Hiashi's perspective:

Mari just played us all for fools. She is brazenly and openly an infiltrator from Mist! Mari just stole the hat through trickery and lies. She only entered Leaf because Jiraiya was thinking with his cock, and now she's the Hokage. The second her leash was removed she snapped up all the power she could. The only remaining question is what does Mari want to do with it?

Its obvious to anyone that she didn't win the vote honorably. The Uzumaki, Uchiha, and the Senju are not even actual clans! They are just one person each, and the only reason they haven't already been struck from the clan rolls is out of respect. Not to mention the "Goketsu" that monument to the arrogance of Jiraiya which he browbeat us into despite our objetions.

Tsunade was probably bribed with an expansion to the hospital or whatever other waste of money she's harping about these days.

After three months of torture Naruto was vulnerable enough that Mari could sweep in and steal his loyalties from Leaf. The old Naruto was loyal and would have killed all of those Goketsu on sight, but now he's her loyal dog! Every still loves him, but they don't know that our Naruto is dead, and yet another beast has taken his mind.

The Minami and Sarutobi were turned with simple nostalgia wielded like a knife. A few words here and there leading them to believe that the liar was on their side

The Uzumaki and Hagamoro were literally bought by the steady stream of money she receives from nowhere. The cover story of trade with the Seventh Path is ludicrous, but it is unverifiable and impossible to shut down. At best her real backers are using summoners to send her resources and orders. The gold is simply how they pay her to sell out Leaf.

As to her real masters, it's an open secret that she effectively gave Hot Springs to Mist.

Hiruzen's death at Mist hands can also be laid at her feet! The skywalkers, with their incredible potential, were clearly Jiraiya's invention and we all know how easily Jiraiya's mind was turned by a pretty face. That entire battle only happened because of her goading and manipulation.

My fellow loyalists, now that the Mist infiltrator has the hat there are only two questions left: What will she do to our beloved village? and what are we willing to do to stop her?

From Hiashi's perspective a Mari win would be a clear, unambiguous loss for Leaf as whole. His patriotism and loyalty will force him to escalate until he has won and we are dead. He will find enough people to support him in this. It only takes a small fraction of a group to completely sabotage it.

We are simply not equipped to handle the consequences should Mari win. We cannot handle a Byakugan enabled rebellion. Hell, if Mari runs at all (whether or not Hiashi wins) it looks like evidence of disloyalty to Hiashi.

If Hiashi thinks we are a genuine threat to Leaf, rather than just a political liability, we are fucked. The moment he becomes willing to trade the lives of others for our own, we have no options other than to die or run. All of our other progress gets thrown in the trash when we need to fight for our survival again.
 
If the plan had anything happening in the morning than I might agree. We can literally get a few productive hours that we would Just waste otherwise
It has been pointed out recently by the QMs that downtime for Hazou is time in which he does things like, for instance, reading J's notes on the politics of the seventh path, or self-reflection, or any number of things.
@Cariyaga @Oneiros As a compromise, can I propose we phrase it as using only excess free time on sealing research. If anything it would take Hazou's mind off of all the thinking about how he fucked up with Keiko. We have a lot of it in our plan and Hazou is only human and not talented at this politics stuff either.

At first I agreed with those who were sceptical of surrendering to Naruto. Now I can't wait to finally be allowed to hand the reins over to him. It's stressful and, warranted or not, I keep feeling like we are trampling our female family members underfoot while taking the male ones for granted.
Time spent sealing is literally better spent doing nothing for Hazou right now. He's stressed as fuck, and Sealing research is not something that's destressing. I could imagine something like reading Jiraiya's notes on 7PPol as such, maybe, but Sealing is a field that requires intense focus.

Also, that's not a compromise. We're not two people on opposite ends of a spectrum wanting to come together to make a plan. She's trying to get a plan that I voted for in its current state changed.
 
Let's settle the debate then, shall we?

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail What were Hazou's intentions when he said this? Was his intent to order Keiko to not follow through on her threat, xor something else; if it's the latter, what was he trying to suggest?

I'd really like clarification on this as well, and also on what he was thinking when he gave Mari the go ahead later in the scene. At the moment, I'm charitably assuming it was "Mari understands Keiko better, I'd probably just make things worse" rather than "Time to sic my pet social spec jonin on my sister". But I would like confirmation.
 
At first I agreed with those who were sceptical of surrendering to Naruto. Now I can't wait to finally be allowed to hand the reins over to him. It's stressful and, warranted or not, I keep feeling like we are trampling our female family members underfoot while taking the male ones for granted.
Yeah, we didn't take into account that not enough time has passed IC for Hazou to stop being a walking disaster.
We deserved that. This thread simply does not appreciate what dire straights we're in.

As Shika says "[To the rest of leaf] you are the alien scions of Leaf's greatest enemy.", and this is why we can't push for Mari to take the hat. Not only is it a high-risk high-reward strategy, but it's recipe for unrest we simply do not have the ability to deal with.

Even simple malicious compliance towards Mari's orders would ruin us, much less the covert rebellion Hiashi would pursue1​.

1: I suppose it could be overt rebellion too, but ninja.​

Look at it from Hiashi's perspective:

Mari just played us all for fools. She is brazenly and openly an infiltrator from Mist! Mari just stole the hat through trickery and lies. She only entered Leaf because Jiraiya was thinking with his cock, and now she's the Hokage. The second her leash was removed she snapped up all the power she could. The only remaining question is what does Mari want to do with it?

Its obvious to anyone that she didn't win the vote honorably. The Uzumaki, Uchiha, and the Senju are not even actual clans! They are just one person each, and the only reason they haven't already been struck from the clan rolls is out of respect. Not to mention the "Goketsu" that monument to the arrogance of Jiraiya which he browbeat us into despite our objetions.

Tsunade was probably bribed with an expansion to the hospital or whatever other waste of money she's harping about these days.

After three months of torture Naruto was vulnerable enough that Mari could sweep in and steal his loyalties from Leaf. The old Naruto was loyal and would have killed all of those Goketsu on sight, but now he's her loyal dog! Every still loves him, but they don't know that our Naruto is dead, and yet another beast has taken his mind.

The Minami and Sarutobi were turned with simple nostalgia wielded like a knife. A few words here and there leading them to believe that the liar was on their side

The Uzumaki and Hagamoro were literally bought by the steady stream of money she receives from nowhere. The cover story of trade with the Seventh Path is ludicrous, but it is unverifiable and impossible to shut down. At best her real backers are using summoners to send her resources and orders. The gold is simply how they pay her to sell out Leaf.

As to her real masters, it's an open secret that she effectively gave Hot Springs to Mist.

Hiruzen's death at Mist hands can also be laid at her feet! The skywalkers, with their incredible potential, were clearly Jiraiya's invention and we all know how easily Jiraiya's mind was turned by a pretty face. That entire battle only happened because of her goading and manipulation.

My fellow loyalists, now that the Mist infiltrator has the hat there are only two questions left: What will she do to our beloved village? and what are we willing to do to stop her?

From Hiashi's perspective a Mari win would be a clear, unambiguous loss for Leaf as whole. His patriotism and loyalty will force him to escalate until he has won and we are dead. He will find enough people to support him in this. It only takes a small fraction of a group to completely sabotage it.

We are simply not equipped to handle the consequences should Mari win. We cannot handle a Byakugan enabled rebellion. Hell, if Mari runs at all (whether or not Hiashi wins) it looks like evidence of disloyalty to Hiashi.

If Hiashi thinks we are a genuine threat to Leaf, rather than just a political liability, we are fucked. The moment he becomes willing to trade the lives of others for our own, we have no options other than to die or run. All of our other progress gets thrown in the trash when we need to fight for our survival again.
Yeah, this is a good point. Are we sure that Tsunade said Mari was a viable contender for the Hat? And when she said so, it wasn't with the caveat that it would lead to a great many problems?
 
Yeah, this is a good point. Are we sure that Tsunade said Mari was a viable contender for the Hat?
Even if she said exactly that, I would put more weight on the chance that she said it due to a mix of political apathy and her own special brand of crazy than because it is even a remotely good idea objectively speaking.
 
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Yeah, this is a good point. Are we sure that Tsunade said Mari was a viable contender for the Hat? And when she said so, it wasn't with the caveat that it would lead to a great many problems?
Yes? No? Maybe? Tsunade said (according to WoG) that she was a contendor in the same sense that Ren was (read: social training). But she didn't make mention of possible problems when she did so.

But I think this illustrates what's been going on with the thread lately. We have no idea what the fuck is going on and the QMs have so many spoons on their plates they can't respond fast enough; things are simply moving too fast for any of us to deal with.

At the cost of turning people off of the thread...might I suggest making the next update a single, simple scene (like what @huhYeahGoodPoint's proposed) but with a lot of back-info on stuff that we should know but don't?
 
I'm moderately annoyed with this update, we had a good, at least semi-workable plan to reduce violence in the 7th Path. When we try to communicate this to Keiko she freaking blind-sides us by saying "I don't actually care about violence or death, I care about not selling weapons". Which like, sure, legit, makes sense. But maybe this should've or could've been communicated sometime in the past several months we've been living together. Even if Hazou might not have understood that this would be Keiko's objection, Noburi probably should have and we were explicitly talking this through with him before we told Keiko our plan.

Then, instead of trying to work things out with us or help us come up with a better alternative she just runs away and unilaterally decides to stop selling seals to the Pangolins. Which, by the way, will likely cause deaths as well because the Pangolins are now, suddenly, horrendously overextended.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and now we're going to have to spend an update or so putting out this new dumpster fire which we literally had no way to anticipate. Not only does this screw our clan finances, it also screws our plan to make a Snake-Toad-Pangolin alliance thus granting us the ability to secure the Snake scroll.
 
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