Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
We could argue that, as long as Hazou is acting as Clan head, he has to protect Mari, even against Hana? Might be a bit of an emotional drama for both of them but it's not like Hazou could just point out that without Jirayia around he can't act like a kid, even if he wants to. Give Hana the choice to respect Hazou's position or endanger her relationship with him (further).

Also Tsunade is around, so Hana can't just assassinate Mari, that's a plus.
 
Hana isn't going to attack Mari again. She hadn't intended to in the first place and only did when Mari engaged her before anyone else noticed the problem. If either Noburi or Akane had been around it would have been completely nipped in the bud. She was then convinced that it was best to fix it.

She's not a coked-up wolverine. She can be handled. Frankly, keeping her from breaking Mari again seems easier than the order to keep Fifi on the property.
 
My comments after reading the plan.

MMKII said:
  • Ask Jiraiya if we can count on Tsunade for support back home.
    • Is she likely to go on the mission?
    • Would she help Goketsu in Jiraiya's absence (potential death) directly or as an advisor?
  • Just to check, your will will include directions and/or advice on what to do with any valuable ninja tools, information and resources that could be game-changers, including but not limited to: the Toads or the Toad Scroll, your spy network and other ninja contacts, seal list and library of research notes, the remaining plot to the Icha Icha series, etc..?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'd really like to ask him here what he thinks our prospects are if he doesn't come back. If Hiashi survives, will he actually try to slowly suffocate and kill us off? Is Tsunade the next logical Hokage candidate afterwards? If Shikaku doesn't want the hat, who is next in line?

It's a difficult topic, but Hazou is acting Clan Head now, he needs the full, hard truth on our position and options. More importantly, we need this to make good decisions in the times to come.


MMKII said:
To Jiraiya: If you don't come back but Naruto finds his way home, we'll take good care of him. You owe us one massive victory party, one wedding and one awesome adopted brother, so don't you fucking dare die on us, sir.
  • Hug him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

How about this:
  • Hazou brings up Jiraiya's threat to not impede the search for Naruto
  • He might be ruthless as Jiraiya said. But not ruthless enough to sacrifice family for political gain.
  • And we will take care of Naruto, and welcome him into the family. Even if Jiraiya doesn't make it back.
  • With that said, he better damn well make it. There are limits to being afraid of weddings. And he owes us one massive victory party, too.
  • Hug him.
 
Last edited:
Roomba said:
My comments after reading the plan.



I'd really like to ask him here what he thinks our prospects are if he doesn't come back. If Hiashi survives, will he actually try to slowly suffocate and kill us off? Is Tsunade the next logical Hokage candidate afterwards? If Shikaku doesn't want the hat, who is next in line?

It's a difficult topic, but Hazou is acting Clean Head now, he needs the full, hard truth on our position and options. More importantly, we need this to make good decisions in the times to come.




How about this:
  • Hazou brings up Jiraiya's threat to not impede the search for Naruto
  • He might be ruthless as Jiraiya said. But not ruthless enough to sacrifice family for political gain.
  • And we will take care of Naruto, and welcome him into the family. Even if Jiraiya doesn't make it back.
  • With that said, he better damn well make it. There are limits to being afraid of weddings. And he owes us one massive victory party, too.
  • Hug him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I find these changes more or less acceptable for the situation, unless a pile of people do not (for some reason).

I'm busy until ~7pm EST, so if I don't make edits by then someone ping me about it.
 
Jiraiya was the one who seized the hat. Jiraiya was the one who publicly threatened and disrespected him. It's just barely possible that if Jiraiya bites it Hiashi will let the matter drop.

Of course, if Naruto makes it back, we're right back to a succession war. That might be resolvable with a marriage to Hinata.

Though, would Goketsu be directly involved in anything? I mean, everybody has been just assuming that Naruto is already a Goketsu in all but name, but that's because it's Jiraiya's clan. If Jiraiya isn't around anymore, is he going to have any inclination at all to throw his lot in with a tiny, newborn, shattered clan of half-mad barbarian traitors after he has lost his adopted grandfather, been tortured for months, and then lost his godfather? What can Goketsu offer him that any other clan can't beat hands down? Heck, all on his own he has a pretty good claim to being heir of the Senju clan.
 
Last edited:
Lailoken said:
Jiraiya was the one who seized the hat. Jiraiya was the one who publicly threatened and disrespected him. It's just barely possible that if Jiraiya bites it Hiashi will let the matter drop.

Of course, if Naruto makes it back, we're right back to a succession war. That might be resolvable with a marriage to Hinata.

Though, would Goketsu be directly involved in anything? I mean, everybody has been just assuming that Naruto is already a Goketsu in all but name, but that's because it's Jiraiya's clan. If Jiraiya isn't around anymore, is he going to have any inclination at all to throw his lot in with a tiny, newborn, shattered clan of half-mad barbarian traitors after he has lost his adopted grandfather, been tortured for months, and then lost his godfather? What can Goketsu offer him that any other clan can't beat hands down? Heck, all on his own he has a pretty good claim to being heir of the Senju clan.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If Naruto is anything like canon Naruto (which I think it's somewhat safe to assume he's similar based on Jiraiya's descriptions of him) we can probably have Hazo get all inspirational on him to get him on board with us. Also, depending on what's in Jiraiya's will, he'll at least know that Jiraiya trusted us and intended for him to be adopted into the clan. So he's likely to go along with it, in part because it's what Jiraiya would have wanted. It may take a little bit to really earn his trust, but I think Naruto would lean towards trusting us rather than ruthlessly trying to ally with another clan to use their resources.

Also, I wonder if a marriage to Hinata would be viable. I think it would be a situation where we'd have to send Naruto to live with the Hyuga, rather than have Hinata come live with us, since in this story she seems like the unquestioned clan Heir as opposed to the uncertainty there was in canon. I'm not sure what that would do for his position in our clan or his likeliness to become Hokage.

Part of what we can offer him is the secrecy protections and voting power of a clan, without all the strings that come with it that would force him to make concessions he likely wouldn't want to (also seals for days). If his ideals line up with ours the way I think they will, then we're probably his best bet to be able to act freely with the least amount of compromises for the sake of politics. Sending him off to marry Hinata might actually hinder that, as he'd have to deal with the concerns of a clan whose politics he doesn't necessarily agree with. I think it would only be a necessary step if we lose the support of Ino-Shika-Cho.
 
Last edited:
Fresh C said:
If Naruto is anything like canon Naruto (which I think it's somewhat safe to assume he's similar based on Jiraiya's descriptions of him) we can probably have Hazo get all inspirational on him to get him on board with us. Also, depending on what's in Jiraiya's will, he'll at least know that Jiraiya trusted us and intended for him to be adopted into the clan. So he's likely to go along with it, in part because it's what Jiraiya would have wanted. It may take a little bit to really earn his trust, but I think Naruto would lean towards trusting us rather than ruthlessly trying to ally with another clan to use their resources.

Also, I wonder if a marriage to Hinata would be viable. I think it would be a situation where we'd have to send Naruto to live with the Hyuga, rather than have Hinata come live with us, since in this story she seems like the unquestioned clan Heir as opposed to the uncertainty there was in canon. I'm not sure what that would do for his position in our clan or his likeliness to become Hokage.

Part of what we can offer him is the secrecy protections and voting power of a clan, without all the strings that come with it that would force him to make concessions he likely wouldn't want to (also seals for days). If his ideals line up with ours the way I think they will, then we're probably his best bet to be able to act freely with the least amount of compromises for the sake of politics. Sending him off to marry Hinata might actually hinder that, as he'd have to deal with the concerns of a clan whose politics he doesn't necessarily agree with. I think it would only be a necessary step if we lose the support of Ino-Shika-Cho.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's possible to, like with Keiko to the Nara, have the heir remain part of her clan while joining our clan. Basically there's two options:
  • Join new clan, no longer part of old clan
  • Join new clan, remain part of old clan, remain living with old clan, have two sets of responsibilities.
 
eaglejarl said:
Arguably, 3) It will allow you to attempt to draw a blank for a seal you aren't familiar with. This is something that a non-Iron Nerve user cannot even attempt, but it's really only a theoretical advantage, since no sane person would do it. You won't know the TN, so you have no idea if you succeeded or not, and if you try to infuse a seal that failed its Calligraphy roll then it's Cthulhu time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Can't Jiraiya check the calligraphy? This sounds like a weird sort of concession.
Inferno Vulpix said:
Everyone dying would be pretty insane. We wouldn't get any word back about how the battle went, so we'd have to assume we lost, but Akastuki wouldn't be making any moves so we'd just be living in fear.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Everyone dying
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
we'd just be living
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
An odd sort of optimism you have there.
 
Cariyaga said:
It's possible to, like with Keiko to the Nara, have the heir remain part of her clan while joining our clan. Basically there's two options:
  • Join new clan, no longer part of old clan
  • Join new clan, remain part of old clan, remain living with old clan, have two sets of responsibilities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

True, though if I remember correctly there are distinct disadvantages to that. And it was described as having to walk a bit of a tightrope between the interests of both clans.

I think it's a safe assumption that Naruto would not be allowed to marry the Hyuga clan heir without making some serious concessions. In which case it may be cheaper to have them as political rivals than to have them as allies who fundamentally disagree about the way the village should be run. Though I think we need more data on the Hyuga's political stances to know for sure.

Edit: If he opted to join the clan through adoption, then it's questionable what Goketsu would be getting out of the deal. We'd be officially losing a very strong asset, but gaining some political favor with the strongest clan in Leaf. Is that political favor worth the loss?
 
Last edited:
Fresh C said:
True, though if I remember correctly there are distinct disadvantages to that. And it was described as having to walk a bit of a tightrope between the interests of both clans.

I think it's a safe assumption that Naruto would not be allowed to marry the Hyuga clan heir without making some serious concessions. In which case it may be cheaper to have them as political rivals than to have them as allies who fundamentally disagree about the way the village should be run. Though I think we need more data on the Hyuga's political stances to know for sure.

Edit: If he opted to join the clan through adoption, then it's questionable what Goketsu would be getting out of the deal. We'd be officially losing a very strong asset, but gaining some political favor with the strongest clan in Leaf. Is that political favor worth the loss?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, we can take a wild guess based on what other facts we know about Hyuugas:
  • They're arrogant elitists
  • They tend to have more interest in the clan well-being rather than village's
  • They excell at everything they do, but that is balanced with small number of areas they're interested in
  • They seem to spend a lot of their politicin time in fights/reasoning with Merchant Council
Probably a lot of other points I missed :)
 
Fresh C said:
True, though if I remember correctly there are distinct disadvantages to that. And it was described as having to walk a bit of a tightrope between the interests of both clans.

I think it's a safe assumption that Naruto would not be allowed to marry the Hyuga clan heir without making some serious concessions. In which case it may be cheaper to have them as political rivals than to have them as allies who fundamentally disagree about the way the village should be run. Though I think we need more data on the Hyuga's political stances to know for sure.

Edit: If he opted to join the clan through adoption, then it's questionable what Goketsu would be getting out of the deal. We'd be officially losing a very strong asset, but gaining some political favor with the strongest clan in Leaf. Is that political favor worth the loss?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You seem to be thinking about it backwards. Naruto is pretty much assumed to be a future Hokage. By marrying the heir to him Hiashi would simultaneously be locking down his clan's claim to Leaf's bijuu, a SS-ranker, the toad scroll, and the hokageship, possibly even with a regency period where he gets to be Hokage, all while absorbing one of Leaf's two royal founding clans at a time when the other appears doomed to extinction. A more beneficial marriage probably doesn't exist. The Hyuuga would be the ones bending over backwards to make concessions to Naruto. This is the sort of thing Hiashi would voluntarily step down as clan head and elevate Naruto to replace him over. All the clans would be throwing their everything at Naruto to try to win his support.

The Goketsu have to offer... a crazy demolitions expert, an imminently gone robot, a suicidal matriarch, a clan head whose political and social skills Jiraiya described as being on par with a clanless first-year academy student, and Noburi. Now, Noburi is awesome, but he probably can't swing the whole deal on his own. Oh, yeah, they're all barbarian traitors he's never met before and whose association will actively hamper his interactions with everybody he has met before.

I get that he loved Jiraiya, and that would have been enough to convince him to join when Jiraiya was there, but throwing away the world and making enemies of everyone else in his village just to honor a ghost? That's not the sort of naivete which lives to chuunin in this universe.
 
Last edited:
Lailoken said:
You seem to be thinking about it backwards. Naruto is pretty much assumed to be a future Hokage. By marrying the heir to him Hiashi would simultaneously be locking down his clan's claim to Leaf's bijuu, a SS-ranker, the toad scroll, and the hokageship, possibly even with a regency period where he gets to be Hokage, all while absorbing one of Leaf's two royal founding clans at a time when the other appears doomed to extinction. A more beneficial marriage probably doesn't exist. The Hyuuga would be the ones bending over backwards to make concessions to Naruto. This is the sort of thing Hiashi would voluntarily step down as clan head and elevate Naruto to replace him over. All the clans would be throwing their everything at Naruto to try to win his support.

The Goketsu have to offer... a crazy demolitions expert, an imminently gone robot, a suicidal matriarch, a clan head who's political and social skills Jiraiya described as being on par with a clanless first-year academy student, and Noburi. Now, Noburi is awesome, but he probably can't swing the whole deal on his own. Oh, yeah, they're all barbarian traitors he's never met before and whose association will actively hamper his interactions with everybody he has met before.

I get that he loved Jiraiya, and that would have been enough to convince him to join when Jiraiya was there, but throwing away the world and making enemies of everyone else in his village just to honor a ghost? That's not the sort of naivete which lives to chuunin in this universe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


I don't know if I buy the premise that he's practically guaranteed to become Hokage. He's been groomed for it and trained for it, yes. But I think that's all we've heard about his chances of actually wearing the hat. From Jiraiya's words we know that him being Hokage is probably in our best interests, rather than us trying to make a (certainly doomed) bid for it. But correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the characters in story (aside from Jiraiya) have even so much as implied that they would politically back Naruto if he made a bid for the hat. All we've heard about him is that he's crazy strong, not that he's politically favored. Though perhaps his ability to make friends would be a factor.

I think the Hyuuga are way too prideful to let someone without the Byakugan become the clan head. Their traditions seem to define them, and to let someone who is not truly a part of those traditions be the face of the clan seems almost unthinkable. At least not without some sort of strong insurance that they had the Hyuuga interests in heart first and foremost, which I doubt Naruto would be willing to give them.

Ultimately the question is what can the Hyuuga offer Naruto that would be worth what he can offer them? Yes they are a powerful clan with some sway over the other clans. But if Goketsu can continue its alliance with Ino-Shika-Cho that's 4 free council votes for Naruto if he stays on our side. The Hyuuga would be able to offer him wealth and military power, but they would not let him steer the ship without their influence. There would be no point to having Naruto be a part of their clan, if they couldn't leverage his position to their advantage. So at best he would be able to meet in the middle between executing his ideal policies and doing whatever best benefits the Hyuuga clan.

What Goketsu currently have to offer Naruto is council votes and autonomy. Maybe the Hyuuga's wealth and influence would outweigh that. But I sincerely doubt it would come without lots of strings attached.

Also, is the bit about Naruto belonging to one of Leaf's founding clans even known to the Hyuugas? (I honestly don't know if that's common knowledge in universe or not)


Edit: Them gaining access to toad summoning is a good point though. And definitely something Naruto could bargain with to get more favorable results with less requirements on his end.
 
Last edited:
MMKII said:
Would [Tsunade] help Goketsu in Jiraiya's absence (potential death) directly or as an advisor?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just to check, your will will include directions and/or advice on what to do with any valuable ninja tools, information and resources that could be game-changers, including but not limited to: the Toads or the Toad Scroll, your spy network and other ninja contacts, seal list and library of research notes, the remaining plot to the Icha Icha series, etc..?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you don't come back but Naruto finds his way home, we'll take good care of him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's amusing how thoroughly we're scavenging Jiraiya's yet-notional corpse. I'm not saying we're wrong to do so, but it's amusing.
 
Roomba said:
  • Hazou brings up Jiraiya's threat to not impede the search for Naruto
  • He might be ruthless as Jiraiya said. But not ruthless enough to sacrifice family for political gain.
  • And we will take care of Naruto, and welcome him into the family. Even if Jiraiya doesn't make it back.
  • With that said, he better damn well make it. There are limits to being afraid of weddings. And he owes us one massive victory party, too.
  • Hug him.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Okay, wait. Why are we bringing the threat thing up? Seems like a weird callback to me, and I express confusion at it.
 
@MMKII Can I ask you to literally just move the "come home alive and throw the biggest fucking victory party" section up before clarifying what to do if Jiraiya doesn't make it back? It's a small thing, but I think it'll flow better.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
@MMKII Can I ask you to literally just move the "come home alive and throw the biggest fucking victory party" section up before clarifying what to do if Jiraiya doesn't make it back? It's a small thing, but I think it'll flow better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It's preference thing, but I like it better at the end. Gives us a positive note to end the conversation on and drives home the fact that everything else is just us contingency planning.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
@MMKII Can I ask you to literally just move the "come home alive and throw the biggest fucking victory party" section up before clarifying what to do if Jiraiya doesn't make it back? It's a small thing, but I think it'll flow better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We want to end on a note of "By the way if you do die will you be leaving us with XYZ?" vs. "You better damn well come back" + hugging ?

I vastly prefer the latter, though that might just be me?
 
MMKII said:
Okay, wait. Why are we bringing the threat thing up? Seems like a weird callback to me, and I express confusion at it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Because that whole interaction is what recently defined their relationship in Hazou's mind, and why he refuses to consider Jiraiya part of the family. It's partially a rejection, in that Hazou thinks Jiraiya is wrong about him, but also an offer of reconciliation, in that he's willing to take care of Naruto, not because it's politically advantageous, but because family is important to him.

Jiraiya feels guilty about the threats. We're essentially acknowledging that he was wrong and forgiving him for it. Clearing the air, if you will.

In any case:
[X] Action Plan: Sealsmith of the Gods
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top