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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
Epistemic status: Pondering.

I feel... that it may be the case that the hivemind's dissolute parts plays strongly against this kind of characterization-changing thing. It's not a sure thing, but I believe part of the issue may be that we have these kinds of epiphanies often, but they get lost in the shuffle of different planmakers making every plan, and reminders -- and memories -- are fallible.

I believe we've tried planmaking guidelines before and they didn't especially work. Does anyone have other suggestions?
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Allow me to spitball.

The issue is that we are a pile of different humans with different personalities.

Some people like to be crystal-fucking-clear to prevent Hazoubot from interpreting things incorrectly. Some like to just skirt details entirely.

Interactions with individuals are a bit more nuanced than that.

For example, I prefer:
  • "Hey Nobby, want to grab some ice cream?"
    • Bullshit with him about nothing in particular.
    • Make sure to very intentionally avoid discussing personal topics of which he is quite sore about.
      • Namely his crippling self-esteem issues and frayed relationship with his little sisters.
    • Do juxtapose his successes and others' failures (including your own) in a way that makes him feel better.
      • "At least neither of us had to strip in front of the audience (Hinata,Kiba). Shit dude."
      • "Do you think we need to add 'Hazou Flambe' to the clan dinner menu?"
    • Make it very clear (but do not say this explicitly out loud) that you have his back in all things.
      • Gee, we can't wait to get back to Leaf to get started on all these cool projects.
      • Any ideas for that mednin training system you proposed to Tsunade? What about start up costs?
      • We have some ideas to make money, so we could totally help with that if you wanted. Say the word man.
Checklist:
  • Is supportive.
  • Makes Noburi aware that we know something is up with him.
    • And it's cool if he doesn't want to talk about it.
  • Agency respecting elements present.
  • Sounds like a normal social interaction between two individuals.

Some people would prefer to accomplish the above with a bunch of insightful and well thought out ways to steer the conversation to the topic of Noburi/his sisters, and try to be very careful to do so gingerly and in a supportive manner.

That's fine too in a sense but it does nothing to combat the overarching problem of "Hazou just blunders through a conversation like a robot, and cannot hold his own."


What I would like to improve on:

  • More explicit usage of body language in non-critical social situations.
  • Stop being so damn naive.
  • Less flowchart reading, zero CCnJ for people who aren't Keiko and then only sparingly.
    • For Keiko: We should probably start branching out into flowcharts and diagrams to assist us in communicating.
  • More casual conversational tone.
  • Read Jiraiya's books.
    • All of them. Smut included. Read Ino's favorite books too. Hell, read all of the books, goddamnit.
  • Interact with more humans outside of the clan, and on a regular basis.
    • Seriously.
  • Go do some sort of timed debate-style activity with {Insert Person Here} where you practice thinking through complicated things on the spot.
  • General annoying habitual things I see from time to time.
    • Do not change your mind on something when a decent sounding argument against your opinion is immediately thrust in your face. Do not vehemently argue against it, either. Consider the new information or viewpoint thoughtfully.
      • If you must appear to change your mind for reasons unspecified, do so externally but keep your internal opinion consistent with your actual beliefs.
    • Examine everything more critically. What do you know, and why do you think you know it? Why is someone telling you X, and just how true is X, really?
      • Event Y has happened, who gains from this? By what avenues could it have been brought about? Could person X have done this? Do they stand to gain from it?
 
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We already have plenty of documents, don't we? Like character dossiers, or the... "Insightful Hazou Initiative"(?)- the one where we list what Hazou knows about others and how.

Could just add another one- Planmaking Guide, which would contain good practices and useful insights, when it comes to making plans.
Hell, a simple growing list of advice would do, if it's copy-pasted for every update, as a way of unifying planmaker's expertise and knowledge.

Edit: There's a page about planning on the wiki, except it's kinda collecting dust.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Ideally she'll put together a portfolio ahead of time of weird and unexpected solutions to problems to pull out as needed, since I don't think she's very good at being spontaneous with that sort of thing.
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Interesting.


Update, 296 words. Added a "generic" strategy based on @TaliesinSkye's idea. It probably needs improvement.

Also, added a modification to the Firestorm strategy that should make it more viable.
Noumero said:
[x] Retroactive Action Plan: Choosing To Talk Not Fight XOR Accidentally Burning The Audience To Ashes
Wordcount: 296.
  • Show Jiraiya. Pick his preferred strategy.
  • Firebomb strategy:
    • Weapon design:
      • Fill a fragile bowl with water and oil (~1:9 ratio). Ignite oil, seal it. Attach to a kunai with an explosive seal.
      • Explosive destroys the storage scroll. Water flash-vaporizes, spreading burning oil omnidirectionally, creating a firestorm.
      • Determine optimal quantity of oil to cover most of the tournament area.
        • Consider replacing oil with tar, for massive area-denial instead of firestorm.
      • Test in the Seventh Path (on Toads' territory, to conceal from Pangolins?).
    • Fight:
      • Demonstrate: Keiko throws a firebomb in the area during the speech...
      • Intimidate: ... and suggests that Shikamaru forfeits instead of getting incinerated.
    • Drawback: Shows firebombs to everyone. Possible solution:
      • Keiko goes into the area for privacy, explains the firebomb to Shikamaru only, doesn't demonstrate it publicly. Shikamaru will likely believe her (we wouldn't compromise our credibility for one-off advantage).
  • Diplomacy strategy:
    • Reasoning:
      • ISC are creative, and better prepared for the tournament than us.
      • Gouketsu's Summoner losing to a notoriously lazy non-combat specialist would damage our reputation. ISC want Jiraiya to keep the hat, but it'll give them influence over us.
      • ISC still can't be certain they'll defeat Keiko.
      • Therefore, we could negotiate their surrender for (smaller) political concessions.
    • Fight(s):
      • Keiko approaches Shikamaru, negotiates.
      • ISC either concede their matches, or put up token resistance.
    • Drawback: Obviously suboptimal.
  • "Generic" strategy:
    • Preparations:
      • During Event Five, Keiko's pangolins accompanied ISC in combat. Any valuable intel?
        • (Aspect Bonus?)
      • ISC win by preparing countermeasures for strategies that make optimal use of their opponents' abilities. Be random:
        • Make a list of unexpected (suboptimal?) tactical decisions. Attack/evasion patterns, pangolin choices...
        • Devise several viable multi-step strategies. In combat, switch between them at random.
        • Consider rolling dice for ideas.
      • Speech: Equip Banshee Slayers to no-sell psywar?
    • Fight:
      • ???
    • Drawback: Unreliable.
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PurposefulZephyr said:
We already have plenty of documents, don't we? Like character dossiers, or the... "Insightful Hazou Initiative"(?)- the one where we list what Hazou knows about others and how.

Could just add another one- Planmaking Guide, which would contain good practices and useful insights, when it comes to making plans.
Hell, a simple growing list of advice would do, if it's copy-pasted for every update, as a way of unifying planmaker's expertise and knowledge.

Edit: There's a page about planning on the wiki, except it's kinda collecting dust.
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We've tried that before, it just didn't work. I'd be willing to try it again, years later, but I'm not the one making plans (usually) :V
 
MMKII said:
Allow me to spitball.

The issue is that we are a pile of different humans with different personalities.

Some people like to be crystal-fucking-clear to prevent Hazoubot from interpreting things incorrectly. Some like to just skirt details entirely.

Interactions with individuals are a bit more nuanced than that.

For example, I prefer:
  • "Hey Nobby, want to grab some ice cream?"
    • Bullshit with him about nothing in particular.
    • Make sure to very intentionally avoid discussing personal topics of which he is quite sore about.
      • Namely his crippling self-esteem issues and frayed relationship with his little sisters.
    • Do juxtapose his successes and others' failures (including your own) in a way that makes him feel better.
      • "At least neither of us had to strip in front of the audience (Hinata,Kiba). Shit dude."
      • "Do you think we need to add 'Hazou Flambe' to the clan dinner menu?"
    • Make it very clear (but do not say this explicitly out loud) that you have his back in all things.
      • Gee, we can't wait to get back to Leaf to get started on all these cool projects.
      • Any ideas for that mednin training system you proposed to Tsunade? What about start up costs?
      • We have some ideas to make money, so we could totally help with that if you wanted. Say the word man.
Checklist:
  • Is supportive.
  • Makes Noburi aware that we know something is up with him.
    • And it's cool if he doesn't want to talk about it.
  • Agency respecting elements present.
  • Sounds like a normal social interaction between two individuals.

Some people would prefer to accomplish the above with a bunch of insightful and well thought out ways to steer the conversation to the topic of Noburi/his sisters, and try to be very careful to do so gingerly and in a supportive manner.

That's fine too in a sense but it does nothing to combat the overarching problem of "Hazou just blunders through a conversation like a robot, and cannot hold his own."


What I would like to improve on:

  • More explicit usage of body language in non-critical social situations.
  • Stop being so damn naive.
  • Less flowchart reading, zero CCnJ for people who aren't Keiko and then only sparingly.
    • For Keiko: We should probably start branching out into flowcharts and diagrams to assist us in communicating.
  • More casual conversational tone.
  • Read Jiraiya's books.
    • All of them. Smut included. Read Ino's favorite books too. Hell, read all of the books, goddamnit.
  • Interact with more humans outside of the clan, and on a regular basis.
    • Seriously.
  • Go do some sort of timed debate-style activity with {Insert Person Here} where you practice thinking through complicated things on the spot.
  • General annoying habitual things I see from time to time.
    • Do not change your mind on something when a decent sounding argument against your opinion is immediately thrust in your face. Do not vehemently argue against it, either. Consider the new information or viewpoint thoughtfully.
      • If you must appear to change your mind for reasons unspecified, do so externally but keep your internal opinion consistent with your actual beliefs.
    • Evamine everything more critically. What do you know, and why do you think you know it? Why is someone telling you X, and just how true is X, really?
      • Event Y has happened, who gains from this? By what avenues could it have been brought about? Could person X have done this? Do they stand to gain from it?
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My general perspective on Hazou socials:

Hazou's good when he's on track. He's got the intelligence and insight to be pretty good at these things for his age as long as he's got his head on straight.

Unfortunately for him, he doesn't seem to be very good at backup plans or staying above water when he's put on the back foot. This may be mainly because he so often plays above his level or because he made a major mistake and is getting called out on it, but either way one of his most common failure points is him losing momentum in a conversation to someone else and then nosediving from there.

If I had to suggest what we could do to help him avoid nosedives, it'd do this:
  • Learn how to probe for information better. If you don't know what's going on then figure it out, and then once you know what angle they're pushing you can react properly and get back on track.
  • Practice backup plans. Stammering justifications and displaying wide-eyed discomfort makes you look like a pushover, so it's important to have a calm and collected emotional state that you can retreat to by default. You may still be danced around socially or have to admit you messed up, but you can at least do it with dignity.
OPSEC is a big concern, true, but not only is Hazou improving about that, it's not so much a social issue as it is a plan issue (Hazou's or ours). Realistically, we're not going to stop playing above our level or messing up, but I think we've got a lot of room to grow on keeping our composure even when things spiral out of control.
 
Cariyaga said:
We've tried that before, it just didn't work. I'd be willing to try it again, years later, but I'm not the one making plans (usually) :V
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Honestly, I feel it's worth a try. A wiki is more convenient than all the google documents, with far easier navigation.
There already is a page/hub for plan advice, so it just needs a page specifically for social stuff (and maybe OPSEC- that is it's own headache).

I'll start working on the wiki, bit by bit, and eventually may start working on the plan pages.
There's a ton of discussion and insights in this thread, and I fear valuable knowledge will be lost and forgotten, simply because it gets buried with all the posts here.
 
I think Hazou's social efforts fall apart when he faces unexpected troubles because we can't guide him mid-conversation and without our help Hazou doesn't display a great deal of quick witted cleverness. I see two ways that state of affairs could change. Either the QMs stop scenes mid-way and let us provide new input (slows things down) or the QMs improvise and let Hazou come up with new approaches in the moment that weren't strictly in the winning plan.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
My general perspective on Hazou socials:

Hazou's good when he's on track. He's got the intelligence and insight to be pretty good at these things for his age as long as he's got his head on straight.

Unfortunately for him, he doesn't seem to be very good at backup plans or staying above water when he's put on the back foot. This may be mainly because he so often plays above his level or because he made a major mistake and is getting called out on it, but either way one of his most common failure points is him losing momentum in a conversation to someone else and then nosediving from there.

If I had to suggest what we could do to help him avoid nosedives, it'd do this:
  • Learn how to probe for information better. If you don't know what's going on then figure it out, and then once you know what angle they're pushing you can react properly and get back on track.
  • Practice backup plans. Stammering justifications and displaying wide-eyed discomfort makes you look like a pushover, so it's important to have a calm and collected emotional state that you can retreat to by default. You may still be danced around socially or have to admit you messed up, but you can at least do it with dignity.
OPSEC is a big concern, true, but not only is Hazou improving about that, it's not so much a social issue as it is a plan issue (Hazou's or ours). Realistically, we're not going to stop playing above our level or messing up, but I think we've got a lot of room to grow on keeping our composure even when things spiral out of control.
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I'm talking more about a daily basis sort of thing than anything else.

Sponaneity takes a good deal of practice. The key to getting good at recovering from being put off-balance is to be so goddamn comfortable at improvising that the difference between you winging it after being derailed and coming in with a well thought out plan and actually succeeding with it is mostly cosmetic.
 
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MMKII said:
I'm talking more about a daily basis than anything else.

Sponaneity takes a good deal of practice. The key to getting good at recovering from being put off-balance is to be so goddamn comfortable at improvising that the difference between you winging it after being derailed and coming in with a well thought out plan is mostly cosmetic.
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I suspect Ami trained her mind this way, although she might be faking spontaneity because her plans are just that deep and create the impression of flexibility.
 
MMKII said:
I'm talking more about a daily basis than anything else.

Sponaneity takes a good deal of practice. The key to getting good at recovering from being put off-balance is to be so goddamn comfortable at improvising that the difference between you winging it after being derailed and coming in with a well thought out plan is mostly cosmetic.
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I figure you can get competent at staying composed when off-balance by having pre-defined backup states (body language, speech pattern) that you can retreat to. It'd start off clunky and obvious, but it'd be better than him metaphorically flailing around in hope of a solution.

We could even make it a simple list! If caught off guard in a conversation:
  • Back off from whatever point you were trying to make.
  • Adopt cautious body language.
  • Carefully ask questions until you understand what's going on.
  • Resume making your point.
It'd be awkward as all get out but just following this is half of the way to keeping your cool, and in time Hazou could get used to it and refine it until he's trained up an intuition for how to safely handle being caught off-guard.

As far as getting good goes, though, I don't think I disagree with you. But mainly the problem is that Hazou's bad at it right now, so I'm prioritizing getting competent over getting good.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I figure you can get competent at staying composed when off-balance by having pre-defined backup states (body language, speech pattern) that you can retreat to. It'd start off clunky and obvious, but it'd be better than him metaphorically flailing around in hope of a solution.

We could even make it a simple list! If caught off guard in a conversation:
  • Back off from whatever point you were trying to make.
  • Adopt cautious body language.
  • Carefully ask questions until you understand what's going on.
  • Resume making your point.
It'd be awkward as all get out but just following this is half of the way to keeping your cool, and in time Hazou could get used to it and refine it until he's trained up an intuition for how to safely handle being caught off-guard.

As far as getting good goes, though, I don't think I disagree with you. But mainly the problem is that Hazou's bad at it right now, so I'm prioritizing getting competent over getting good.
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I suppose thats a fair point.

My point is that in low-stakes social situations, theres much more to gain long term by practicing improvisation in uncomfortable scenarios. Specifically, in getting comfortable playing things by the seat of your pants.

One can of course start out small with this so that first attempts of doing it for real aren't apocalyptically bad. A decent part of it is developing some style, at the very least. Which we are doing, albeit step by step.
 
So, re: plans: Given that we're moving along to Velorien's plan, I think it'd be best if we worked out our goals and the specifics of our next meeting with Ami.
 
MMKII said:
Allow me to spitball.

The issue is that we are a pile of different humans with different personalities.

Some people like to be crystal-fucking-clear to prevent Hazoubot from interpreting things incorrectly. Some like to just skirt details entirely.

Interactions with individuals are a bit more nuanced than that.

For example, I prefer:
  • "Hey Nobby, want to grab some ice cream?"
    • Bullshit with him about nothing in particular.
    • Make sure to very intentionally avoid discussing personal topics of which he is quite sore about.
      • Namely his crippling self-esteem issues and frayed relationship with his little sisters.
    • Do juxtapose his successes and others' failures (including your own) in a way that makes him feel better.
      • "At least neither of us had to strip in front of the audience (Hinata,Kiba). Shit dude."
      • "Do you think we need to add 'Hazou Flambe' to the clan dinner menu?"
    • Make it very clear (but do not say this explicitly out loud) that you have his back in all things.
      • Gee, we can't wait to get back to Leaf to get started on all these cool projects.
      • Any ideas for that mednin training system you proposed to Tsunade? What about start up costs?
      • We have some ideas to make money, so we could totally help with that if you wanted. Say the word man.
Checklist:
  • Is supportive.
  • Makes Noburi aware that we know something is up with him.
    • And it's cool if he doesn't want to talk about it.
  • Agency respecting elements present.
  • Sounds like a normal social interaction between two individuals.

Some people would prefer to accomplish the above with a bunch of insightful and well thought out ways to steer the conversation to the topic of Noburi/his sisters, and try to be very careful to do so gingerly and in a supportive manner.

That's fine too in a sense but it does nothing to combat the overarching problem of "Hazou just blunders through a conversation like a robot, and cannot hold his own."


What I would like to improve on:

  • More explicit usage of body language in non-critical social situations.
  • Stop being so damn naive.
  • Less flowchart reading, zero CCnJ for people who aren't Keiko and then only sparingly.
    • For Keiko: We should probably start branching out into flowcharts and diagrams to assist us in communicating.
  • More casual conversational tone.
  • Read Jiraiya's books.
    • All of them. Smut included. Read Ino's favorite books too. Hell, read all of the books, goddamnit.
  • Interact with more humans outside of the clan, and on a regular basis.
    • Seriously.
  • Go do some sort of timed debate-style activity with {Insert Person Here} where you practice thinking through complicated things on the spot.
  • General annoying habitual things I see from time to time.
    • Do not change your mind on something when a decent sounding argument against your opinion is immediately thrust in your face. Do not vehemently argue against it, either. Consider the new information or viewpoint thoughtfully.
      • If you must appear to change your mind for reasons unspecified, do so externally but keep your internal opinion consistent with your actual beliefs.
    • Examine everything more critically. What do you know, and why do you think you know it? Why is someone telling you X, and just how true is X, really?
      • Event Y has happened, who gains from this? By what avenues could it have been brought about? Could person X have done this? Do they stand to gain from it?
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I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room here, so let me spit it out:

We're between two flames here because even though I would were much like plans like this we're getting punished for them because of wordcount limits.

If we don't elaborate so much there could be dozens of small mistakes that we ignore and set aside, making them as 'this should be common sense'. But if it is just implied that Hazou should do something, but not explicitly stated, QMs can mess with Hazou however they want, which they sometimes do. Yes, often it is our plan that specificly firces Hazou act stupid, but that not always the case.

Result: we get punished by being very explicit (less XP) and we get punished by being ambiguous (IC stupidity that we didn't expected)

I understand that its easier for QMs to work with short plans, but we're really stuck here. And, guys, please, don't take it personally. You're great People that pooled together a fantastic story and I really appreciate the amount of time you've put in it.

However, the thing everyone are saying right now is 'Hazou should start acting smarter by default' in dozen different flavours.

What hivemind is missing here, from my perspective, is that we need to establish an agreement with QMs on what they should treat as default reactiin from Hazou. Until it is aquired, all IC we're proposing is going to work one-two chapters and then get erasied again.

Whether the reactions would be developed or receive as a reward for doing something perfectly, trained or aquired for doing things properly for set amount of in-game time is not as important as receiving recognition that we can change Hazou's default reactions and, probably, some sort of manual on how to do this. Because I haven't found any unambiguous way of achieving this in mechanics. Othervise things'll just continue to go downhill...
 
Cariyaga said:
So, re: plans: Given that we're moving along to Velorien's plan, I think it'd be best if we worked out our goals and the specifics of our next meeting with Ami.
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I... don't actually know whether Velorien intends to write fights or a plan. He said we could retroactively help Keiko plan her fight, but that could just mean we off-screen give Keiko advice for her off-screen fight.

Anyways, far and away the most important thing for this second meeting is to figure out if Ami wants to marry us or not. She's given us the opportunity and she's given us the out, but we only have guesses for what she actually thinks on the matter. If Jiraiya hasn't come to a decision already, what we find out from Ami here might be enough to make up his mind, and odds are we'll want to make a decision one way or the other before we leave Mist.

The way things are in the plan, we've got a sufficiently normal-date-looking thing set up that it won't be suspicious, but also gives us the opportunity to talk undisturbed. We can try to impress on Ami that while we appreciate the value in being circumspect and playing the game of nuance and reading between the lines, for a matter as weighty and time-sensitive as this we need to get something clear to act on.
 
As I said I would, I did some work on the wiki.

I do honestly believe that a wiki really is the best way to store information about this quest, as it doesn't suffer from atrocious navigation like Google Docs do.
While it's vastly out of date and generally not complete, even a few updates could make it easier to look up stuff.

Made random edits here and there, mostly to get some work started. Also, more importantly, done nearly a full page about Ami (work in progress, but most of it is done).
Oh, and a bit about Frozen Skein and Pangolins. Does anyone remember the talk about them? Velorien said something of it not being merely a telepathic vulnerability.

Further edits and/or corrections would be welcome.

Also, small questions: can we rename Kekkai Genkai to Bloodlines, and refer to Hidden Villages by their common names, like Mist and Leaf?
Because those fancy names feels like referring to a dog by Canis lupus familiaris, which is unwieldy and confusing.
I am aware Naruto wiki uses them, but... well, frankly it's not exactly rational to follow pointless traditions.
 
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So, only Shino is left.
PurposefulZephyr said:
As I said I would, I did some work on the wiki.

I do honestly believe that a wiki really is the best way to store information about this quest, as it doesn't suffer from atrocious navigation like Google Docs do.
While it's vastly out of date and generally not complete, even a few updates could make it easier to look up stuff.

Made random edits here and there, mostly to get some work started. Also, more importantly, done nearly a full page about Ami (work in progress, but most of it is done).
Oh, and a bit about Frozen Skein and Pangolins. Does anyone remember the talk about them? Velorien said something of it not being merely a telepathic vulnerability.

Further edits and/or corrections would be welcome.

Also, small questions: can we rename Kekkai Genkai to Bloodlines, and refer to Hidden Villages by their common names, like Mist and Leaf?
Because those fancy names feels like referring to a dog by Canis lupus familiaris, which is unwieldy and confusing.
I am aware Naruto wiki uses them, but... well, frankly it's not exactly rational to follow pointless traditions.
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Sure. It would be following MfD's convention of using english name whenever possible.
 
TarzanNn said:
We're between two flames here because even though I would were much like plans like this we're getting punished for them because of wordcount limits.
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This is easily doable, aiming for ~3 scenes in 300-400 words.

TarzanNn said:
However, the thing everyone are saying right now is 'Hazou should start acting smarter by default' in dozen different flavours.
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That's not really what I'm saying.

Over time, the average level of competency you exhibit should simply become the new baseline for you. That's just how getting good at something works.

You do need to get good in the first place.
 
MMKII said:
This is easily doable, aiming for ~3 scenes in 300-400 words.


That's not really what I'm saying.

Over time, the average level of competency you exhibit should simply become the new baseline for you. That's just how getting good at something works.

You do need to get good in the first place.
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So we throw Hazō at social situation and have him talk to Mari before dinner every night.

Edit:
And keep a journal of his social life so he can reflect upon it.
 
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Noumero said:
Hm. What if we test it on the Toads' territory (with Jiraiya to oversee/ensure privacy)? Pangolins won't actually see it during the match, because if it works, there'll be no match.
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I'm still generally against that, for a simple reason: do you think the Pangolins won't ask questions? Sure, there's plenty of reasons Keiko could use, but I will remind you that Keiko has 10 Deceit and isn't exactly very socially adept besides. Even if we ignore the possibility of even oblique word getting back to them (you can only do so much to hide something like highly-destructive weapons testing, and people talk), an unplanned trip to Toad territory is a reasonable thing to have come up just in casual conversation.

Given her aforementioned social aptitude problems, it's a very, very good idea to act as if Pangolin leadership is aware of her feelings on the war and on continuing to supply the Pangolin war engine... And if they know, that means that any time Keiko is hiding something from them, it's a matter of serious concern to them. How sure are they that we won't cut them off, with their intermittent awareness of our world? How badly would it affect them if we did, with their current efforts at expansion? Because they care about the seals we're supplying at least enough to openly reverse religious doctrine.

If they know, then that aspect of the relationship is effectively a cold war, with neither end yet willing to start an open confrontation on the matter; if they don't know, then we're hiding a damn important secret. Either way, this means that Keiko can't openly stone-wall and can't deflect questions, because we're still playing nice--and that means any social conflict where we're trying to avoid their questions is going to be a prolonged tightrope challenge. Furthermore, if it happens, it'll likely happen in the post-letter unstable period, and the expansion already suggests the Pangolins are sharks. Let's not motivate them to act while there's blood out in the water.

The Pangolins are military allies, but they are also social enemies, and we interact with them primarily through our social weak link. If you're already treating that relationship with caution, then you should start treating it like Kagome treats advanced sealcraft. The situation is at least that bad.
 
Didn't the Pangolins already ask recently to see a list of all the seals we know? I remember us freaking out about that a little before getting distracted by more immediate things.
 
Kiba said:
So we throw Hazō at social situation and have him talk to Mari before dinner every night.

Edit:
And keep a journal of his social life so he can reflect upon it.
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MMKII said:
This is easily doable, aiming for ~3 scenes in 300-400 words.


That's not really what I'm saying.

Over time, the average level of competency you exhibit should simply become the new baseline for you. That's just how getting good at something works.

You do need to get good in the first place.
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Sure, you have to get good in the first place. And, yes 300-400 words is ok for the actual plan. But than you add 10 words for talking to Mari, a few words about journal, several words about writing in journal... And each and every thing we need him to do stated specifically does not account for many words on its own, but the pile of things is ever growing. 'mind the OPSEC' is almost in every plan nowadays. Sometimes several times in one plan. We forget it - Hazou forget it. Even though he's a ninja, whos survival actually depends on not breaking OPSEC, while ours... don't.

It is reasonable for him to remember such things, especially when he already was hit hard by doing other way around.

Hazou forgot to ask Noburi about sharing details of his technique - party almost gets wiped. Hard lesson. A moment of horific realization IC.

Then he share Kagome's implosion seals with Jiraya. Ok, it just slipped of his mind. He gets away with warning.

But then, he spills beans about Akane's EM when SHOULD HAVE LEARNED BETTER. Its the things that would be reasonable for him to remember, but every time we don't specify them explicitly, Hazou just f*cks up.

So we're getting stuck with ever growing list of things Hazou should not do, that every sane person would have managed to memorize. And we need to add them to actual 200-300 word plans.

So, is there a way in mechanics to justify learning things so that they would stick. Is there a skill 'mind your damn OPSEC' that we can overload with XP and never mention the thing again without Hazou getting everyone he cares about killed? Is there a trait 'do not forget people around you are kinda ALIVE' that can stop him from being rude to people he loves as a family and what we have to do in order to aquire it?

Sorry, if it sounds too bitter, but I just recently finished reading story-only thread and all these mistakes are much closer for me in time, than for you, people. It gives some perspective, but I have to pay in frustration:)
 
@TarzanNn It's called establishing habits. These things should be stuff that Hazō do automatically without us having to do constant input.

For example, in real life, I actually have a list of 12 habits that a highly effective naked mole rat should do everyday. You know, dig for exercise instead of using TBMs, make sure to get a good night sleep, eat highly nutritious tubers instead of processed tubers, etc.

I then review every week where I am making progress, where I am going wrong, and make changes accordingly.
 
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TarzanNn said:
Sure, you have to get good in the first place. And, yes 300-400 words is ok for the actual plan. But than you add 10 words for talking to Mari, a few words about journal, several words about writing in journal... And each and every thing we need him to do stated specifically does not account for many words on its own, but the pile of things is ever growing. 'mind the OPSEC' is almost in every plan nowadays. Sometimes several times in one plan. We forget it - Hazou forget it. Even though he's a ninja, whos survival actually depends on not breaking OPSEC, while ours... don't.

It is reasonable for him to remember such things, especially when he already was hit hard by doing other way around.

Hazou forgot to ask Noburi about sharing details of his technique - party almost gets wiped. Hard lesson. A moment of horific realization IC.

Then he share Kagome's implosion seals with Jiraya. Ok, it just slipped of his mind. He gets away with warning.

But then, he spills beans about Akane's EM when SHOULD HAVE LEARNED BETTER. Its the things that would be reasonable for him to remember, but every time we don't specify them explicitly, Hazou just f*cks up.

So we're getting stuck with ever growing list of things Hazou should not do, that every sane person would have managed to memorize. And we need to add them to actual 200-300 word plans.

So, is there a way in mechanics to justify learning things so that they would stick. Is there a skill 'mind your damn OPSEC' that we can overload with XP and never mention the thing again without Hazou getting everyone he cares about killed? Is there a trait 'do not forget people around you are kinda ALIVE' that can stop him from being rude to people he loves as a family and what we have to do in order to aquire it?

Sorry, if it sounds too bitter, but I just recently finished reading story-only thread and all these mistakes are much closer for me in time, than for you, people. It gives some perspective, but I have to pay in frustration:)
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I mean, the answer is to do it regularly?

IIRC Hazou and co routinely dispel genjutsu every five minutes. This is just a thing they automatically do now.

I'm certain we can install similar habits.
 
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