- Location
- USA
And if we add in the requirement that they survive the journey?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
I don't think he would go for that, given how clear Hazou and Kei have made their positions, and given that he seems to be trying to make an effort to actually act as a family, and how this move would turn the entire clan against him in one fell swoop... But let's assume he would screw us over here.
I admit that it's difficult to counterplan for this betrayal, and if nothing else this post has indicated that we need better leverage over Jiraiya, but one possible solution would be for Hazou to threaten to marry into the Hyuuga clan and support Hiashi as far as is needed for his thus-far failed coup to succeed if Jiraiya tries to pull this one. If J responds by killing Hazou then he's lost a better resource than the pangolins could have given him. We could possibly set up dead-man's switches (a signed note placed in Hiashi's care, that states Hazou's intention to marry into the Hyuuga if not stated otherwise by the end of the month so that Jiraiya can't just declare us a traitor missing nin who had to be put down).
I think the appropriate response to "Clan leader can prevent you from preventing genocide" is "get dirt on clan leader".
Genocide is bad.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
tbh if the clan leader couldn't screw you over the only reason you aren't already clan leader is because you're dead or don't want to.
Honestly, I think supplanting and sanctioning the Pangolins for a while is a better idea than attempting to cut this sort of deal; sanctioning them sends a clear message of "we're not going to tolerate this and we are perfectly okay with cutting you off".
Compare that to: "so you've been committing genocide, and we want you to stop, so we're going to tell you that we can make fighter jets and you need to come up with a way that someone else can enforce good behavior on you before we'll give you any, but you can have the hot air balloons"
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
If that was all you were concerned about, sure. But what about the knock-on effects? What do you think it would mean for Hazou's efforts on the human path if he explicitly made himself Jiraiya's enemy like that?
I'm not sure we are in a position where we can say "--and we're perfectly okay with cutting you off.", though. For one thing, this is something that my mental model of Jiraiya absolutely does throw a fit over, since those blood diamonds are the only thing keeping us afloat as a clan.
I am becoming increasingly convinced that stopping this f*cking genocide might be the best thing Hazou will be able to accomplish with his life anyway (at least until his descendants unstore and resurrect him), that yes those knock-on effects are starting to look like a good trade.
Furthermore, my model of Jiraiya (although very pissed that Hazou would move against him like that) kinda respects that he's willing to go pretty damn far to stop a genocide from happening, and does acknowledge that he betrayed Hazou first. So in my head, that bridge looks only half-burned and is potentially salvageable.
So whatever the pangolins are doing is more important than what's going on in the human path?
The human path is not currently experiencing a genocidal empire with superweapons. So deathworld hellhole or not, comparatively speaking, it's not as bad as what J would be enabling. Probably.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
I agree; which is why we should go about fixing this state of affairs instead of just shrugging our shoulders and moving on to try these super complicated plans.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
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- She/They
I think we will be economically stable within the next 2-3 months at most, barring Diabolus ex Machina.
I never said we couldn't get more money.
Just that I think this plan would work. It seems rather elegant to me, and so far the closest thing to a legitimate argument I've seen against it is "J could screw us over and make it not work".
Well, no. The closest thing to a legitimate argument against it was a question on discord about optimising the Nara's incentives for not creating fake proofs. But this was the second closest.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
The genocide's already happened, and stopped. They have stopped committing genocide, to my knowledge, and moved on to integrating their new subjects, and I do not consider cultural conquests of any kind to be anywhere near as bad as genocide. So... I don't actually care that much about what they're doing right now.
They're doing war, they've got better weapons, I'm pretty sure most of the summon path is doing the same thing to greater or lesser extent, they just don't have better weapons.
We stop the Pangolin from doing this? Great! Now work on stopping however many other nations are doing it in the EU4-war-sim path.
Sounded to me like they had more genocide planned, and weren't planning to slow down any time soon. J asks them to go into a consolidation phase, and the next thing you know, they're plotting another invasion.
NB: My proposed solution has them conquer everyone else but be forced to treat all their new subjects with respect and dignity, so it actually does stop everyone else from doing genocides as well...
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
The game's fast travel system involved shooting yourself out of a cannon. It's hilarious.
So how can we shoot ourselves out of a cannon as a method of travel now?
- Location
- Yes.
Force Wall/5SB tags. Explosive Tags (lots of 'em). Some absurd amount of ablative armor to make the Weapons: 4 explosives not damage us.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
For one, those are bigger concerns than you make it out to be. We could throw Keiko as a replacement for the Nara, but then the question becomes "do the QMs think that Keiko can outsmart alien leaders who don't want to bother with this".
Not to mention, the Pangolins have a much better Best Alternative To No Agreement (BATNA) than we do: they can just say no, we'll stick the skytowers and the invasions.
First: the genocide is ongoing, and there are more planned. Expecting Hitler to stop with Anschluss is a bad plan, and we shouldn't repeat it. Just because Stalin(s) is on the same continent doesn't mean we should give weapons to Hitler to conquer Russia.
Second: If we can't even apply leverage to the current Pangolins, who Keiko is the summoner of and who we are supplying militarily critical weaponry to, what makes you think that we can apply leverage to anyone else, or the hypothetical hyperpower Imperium of Pangolin we apparently intend to construct?
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I'm pretty sure the 10,000+Gs of acceleration necessary to do cannon travel would turn us into paste no matter the jutsu, unless it's complete invulnerability or auto-resurrection.
- Location
- USA
Necromancy is looking ever more appealing
- Location
- Yes.
something something mechanics check out something something simulation what simulation
I disagree. P and NP, it's easier to verify or falsify a proof than it is to create it, and we can hire some smart civilians from minor nations (accountants or whatever) to do that verification/falsification step for us.
As to BATNA... Ours is to say "oh well, that plan didn't work" and then continue waiting until we've got enough money to be able to snub them, instead of halting the genocide immediately.
The devil's in the detail. Mainly, we rely on the Nara (AKA QMs) to do the work fo rus.