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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MadScientist said:
Copying in from discord:

Ok. So basically, we make a three-party deal:

The Gouketsu make the pangolins aware that we can make skywalkers, and that we are willing to trade them to the pangolins in exchange for a garunteed-enforceable agreement that they will treat conquered people with respect and make them full pangolin-empire citizens. We also make them aware that in order for such a deal to take place then they need to create a method of binding themselves to honour the agreement (and no, a sense of honour is not enough, "My uncle, who creates the seals, assumes your words mean nothing. He's paranoid like that.").

The Nara are called in to be solicitors and make sure the enforcement method works. The pangolins must pay the Nara clan for each enforcement method they want the Nara clan to test, meaning the Pangolins are incentivised to create a working version first time so as to spend as little as possible. The Nara clan also want to maximise their payout, so they're incentivised to find out if it doesn't work.

At the end of the day, The Gouketsu get a non-horrible seventh path, the Pangolins get military supremacy, and the Nara get a payday. As far as I can see, no one is incentivised to rebel.​

Thoughts?
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They're doing the latter part of the agreement already, though? I mean, the condors are getting fully integrated IIRC...
 
MadScientist said:
Copying in from discord:

Ok. So basically, we make a three-party deal:

The Gouketsu make the pangolins aware that we can make skywalkers, and that we are willing to trade them to the pangolins in exchange for a garunteed-enforceable agreement that they will treat conquered people with respect and make them full pangolin-empire citizens. We also make them aware that in order for such a deal to take place then they need to create a method of binding themselves to honour the agreement (and no, a sense of honour is not enough, "My uncle, who creates the seals, assumes your words mean nothing. He's paranoid like that.").

The Nara are called in to be solicitors and make sure the enforcement method works. The pangolins must pay the Nara clan for each enforcement method they want the Nara clan to test, meaning the Pangolins are incentivised to create a working version first time so as to spend as little as possible. The Nara clan also want to maximise their payout, so they're incentivised to find out if it doesn't work.

At the end of the day, The Gouketsu get a non-horrible seventh path, the Pangolins get military supremacy, and the Nara get a payday. As far as I can see, no one is incentivised to rebel.​

Thoughts?
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1. We need a huge incentive for Jiraiya to allow this. Too much risk of opsec breach on skywalkers. Whatever we give him in return for that risk needs to be HUGE.
2. This puts the onus on the QMs to create an effective enforcement method. Suggestions: the QMs could say that the pangolins came up with a method that works, and not tell us how, or the Hivemind can throw suggestions that sound plausible at them and they pick one and say that it works.
 
Oh no. Hazou isn't the only one who knows PEA. This is where we find out that Keiko and Kagome's secret project was a harness which automatically activates explosives every time an armored-up pangolin takes a step or completes a rolling revolution. She probably also begged some soldier pills off of Nara just to ensure that the continuously detonating murder-balls are really 'roided up.
 
We don't have to do this for skywalkers. It can be part of the agreement with them for further seals as they recently requested of Keiko.
 
If at all, I'm partial to just giving them a few thousand alarm seals in exchange for a few million ryo of gold/gems and access to one of their technique hackers.
 
Sentient Tree said:
1. We need a huge incentive for Jiraiya to allow this. Too much risk of opsec breach on skywalkers. Whatever we give him in return for that risk needs to be HUGE.
2. This puts the onus on the QMs to create an effective enforcement method. Suggestions: the QMs could say that the pangolins came up with a method that works, and not tell us how, or the Hivemind can throw suggestions that sound plausible at them and they pick one and say that it works.
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As an idea for what to get Jiraiya, we could further require that the pangolins allow us to teach Leaf nin either PtJ or PEA.
 
Sentient Tree said:
1. We need a huge incentive for Jiraiya to allow this. Too much risk of opsec breach on skywalkers. Whatever we give him in return for that risk needs to be HUGE.
2. This puts the onus on the QMs to create an effective enforcement method. Suggestions: the QMs could say that the pangolins came up with a method that works, and not tell us how, or the Hivemind can throw suggestions that sound plausible at them and they pick one and say that it works.
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OPSEC on the skywalkers is going to break sooner or later, probably in less than a year. One option would be waiting.

What do you guys think of asking Jiraiya about Toad jutsu some time? Might be interesting. If they don't all require a prehensile tongue or something. Maybe they can do super jumping or 360 degree awareness or stealthy ambush predator stuff?
 
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I mean...has OPSEC on Skytowers broken yet? One would think that levitating platforms would be a huge priority for literally everybody on both Paths...
 
MMKII said:
If at all, I'm partial to just giving them a few thousand alarm seals in exchange for a few million ryo of gold/gems and access to one of their technique hackers.
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I like this idea, although I would like to note that the pangolins will probably have access to any jutsu we design this way soon after we do. That's not necessarily bad, but it makes it harder to preserve opsec, especially if they start using the jutsu a lot. We should also double check that any proposed jutsu are not something that could be used for even worse oppression, like something that could be used for torture.

TaliesinSkye said:
OPSEC on the skywalkers is going to break sooner or later, probably in less than a year. One option would be waiting.

What do you guys think of asking Jiraiya about Toad jutsu some time? Might be interesting.
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True. On the other hand, ideally I think we want it asap, hopefully before the pangolins conquer anyone else. Waiting is an excellent fallback though.

Yes to toad jutsu. That sounds awesome.
 
Hazou's perfectly competent at opsec if he's explicitly told to avoid talking about something. It's when we the players are left to gauge the levels of secrecy of something that issues come about.
 
faflec said:
JIRAIYA: Only when you've all learned better OPSEC.

NOBURI, KEIKO: *glances at Hazou*
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Our only OPSEC related sin the past month was to tell Jiraiya about something he by all rights deserved to know already.

Cariyaga said:
Hazou's perfectly competent at opsec if he's explicitly told to avoid talking about something. It's when we the players are left to gauge the levels of secrecy of something that issues come about.
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Also this.

Sentient Tree said:
I like this idea, although I would like to note that the pangolins will probably have access to any jutsu we design this way soon after we do. That's not necessarily bad, but it makes it harder to preserve opsec, especially if they start using the jutsu a lot. We should also double check that any proposed jutsu are not something that could be used for even worse oppression, like something that could be used for torture.
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I don't want the Pangolin to create torture jutsu for us. Thats going a bit too far.

They seem to be focused on more combat oriented stuff or Earth based things. I would prefer a much better version of MEW (can you say epic battlefield control?), a stealth jutsu or something for Hazou.

Also: They seem to be quasi-allied with the Leopards. They've already vassalized the Hyenas and (most of) the Condors. I find it really hard to believe they won't be able to get intel on the summoners for at least one of these clans, or at least info about where their scrolls could be.
 
MMKII said:
Our only OPSEC related sin the past month was to tell Jiraiya about something he by all rights deserved to know already.


Also this.


I don't want the Pangolin to create torture jutsu for us. Thats going a bit too far.

They seem to be focused on more combat oriented stuff or Earth based things. I would prefer a much better version of MEW (can you say epic battlefield control?), a stealth jutsu or something for Hazou.

Also: They seem to be quasi-allied with the Leopards. They've already vassalized the Hyenas and (most of) the Condors. I find it really hard to believe they won't be able to get intel on the summoners for at least one of these clans, or at least info about where their scrolls could be.
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I meant more along the lines of jutsu that could be used that way as a side effect. The way a fast healing jutsu could be used to keep someone alive longer while torturing them harder. I don't l necessarily think that will be created specifically, but I think it's important to analyze each jutsu to make sure there aren't off label uses that we don't want the pangolins having.

That reminds me, we should ask the pangolins about getting as many condor jutsu as possible. Those should be really cheap right now! :p

Edit:
Seconding the scroll questions. The pangolins get enemy summoners taken out, Leaf gets more summoners. Win win!
We could even hold one of the scrolls in reserve for when the Hyuga realize that Hiashi isn't getting the hat, and start considering falling in line behind us. We could give a Hyuga (Hinata, perhaps?) a scroll as a bribe for them to follow us.
 
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MMKII said:
FTFY.

But seriously.
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Good point, although most of his really good stuff probably has chakra requirements that are too high for us now. Seems to be a common problem with A and S rank jutsu. One more reason to work on chakra reserves, so we can start throwing rasengan and other fun things around.
 
MadScientist said:
Copying in from discord:

Ok. So basically, we make a three-party deal:

The Gouketsu make the pangolins aware that we can make skywalkers, and that we are willing to trade them to the pangolins in exchange for a garunteed-enforceable agreement that they will treat conquered people with respect and make them full pangolin-empire citizens. We also make them aware that in order for such a deal to take place then they need to create a method of binding themselves to honour the agreement (and no, a sense of honour is not enough, "My uncle, who creates the seals, assumes your words mean nothing. He's paranoid like that.").

The Nara are called in to be solicitors and make sure the enforcement method works. The pangolins must pay the Nara clan for each enforcement method they want the Nara clan to test, meaning the Pangolins are incentivised to create a working version first time so as to spend as little as possible. The Nara clan also want to maximise their payout, so they're incentivised to find out if it doesn't work.

At the end of the day, The Gouketsu get a non-horrible seventh path, the Pangolins get military supremacy, and the Nara get a payday. As far as I can see, no one is incentivised to rebel.​

Thoughts?
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Bluntly, once they take the first shipment, what's actually preventing them from going on to commit more war crimes? Hell, for that matter, what's stopping them from hearing about it and then taking Keiko hostage until we make it for them?

This whole enforcement scheme depends on the ability of the Nara and us to enforce the deal in letter and spirit, and if we can't enforce it now when we have control over skytowers, we're not going to have it when we start handing them skywalkers.
 
Lailoken said:
Oh no. Hazou isn't the only one who knows PEA. This is where we find out that Keiko and Kagome's secret project was a harness which automatically activates explosives every time an armored-up pangolin takes a step or completes a rolling revolution. She probably also begged some soldier pills off of Nara just to ensure that the continuously detonating murder-balls are really 'roided up.
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I just had a beautiful vision. One day, skywalkers will be rendered obsolete to Team Uplift as they all gear up in PEA and explode themselves through the skies, and the lands below will be bathed in the sounds of Kagome's manic laughter
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Bluntly, once they take the first shipment, what's actually preventing them from going on to commit more war crimes?
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Skywalkers last about 20 minutes. You burn through them real fast. They would need continual shipments to do anything useful.

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Hell, for that matter, what's stopping them from hearing about it and then taking Keiko hostage until we make it for them?
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Jiraiya immediately declares war on the pangolins and wins because the Toads have skywalkers (and whatever other toys J can give them) and the pangolins don't? That's if she can't just desummon herself, which I'm under the impression that she can. Or if neither of those are viable, then Kei leaves the scroll with us when she goes, and we volcano it if she doesn't return in an hour.

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
This whole enforcement scheme depends on the ability of the Nara and us to enforce the deal in letter and spirit, and if we can't enforce it now when we have control over skytowers, we're not going to have it when we start handing them skywalkers.
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Well, no, not quite. It depends on the Pangolins creating a way for us to enforce the deal, and if the Nara don't feel that they've sufficiently done that then they never get any seals.
 
Cariyaga said:
Yes? Do you really think he'd let them kidnap Keiko?
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MadScientist said:
Skywalkers last about 20 minutes. You burn through them real fast. They would need continual shipments to do anything useful.



Jiraiya immediately declares war on the pangolins and wins because the Toads have skywalkers (and whatever other toys J can give them) and the pangolins don't? That's if she can't just desummon herself, which I'm under the impression that she can. Or if neither of those are viable, then Kei leaves the scroll with us when she goes, and we volcano it if she doesn't return in an hour.



Well, no, not quite. It depends on the Pangolins creating a way for us to enforce the deal, and if the Nara don't feel that they've sufficiently done that then they never get any seals.
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Okay, let's grant that the Pangolins won't kidnap Keiko.

Once you make it clear to Jiraiya, however, that the Pangolins have something worth giving them skywalkers for, what's stopping him from offering skywalkers in exchange for a more advantageous deal (from his perspective) because the Pangolins don't have to stop systematically committing war crimes?
 
Paperclipped said:
I just had a beautiful vision. One day, skywalkers will be rendered obsolete to Team Uplift as they all gear up in PEA and explode themselves through the skies, and the lands below will be bathed in the sounds of Kagome's manic laughter
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Maybe we could make a travel network that works by shooting people out of cannons, like in Secret of Mana. XD
 
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