Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Lailoken]

All this is regrettably unsimulationist of us. The fact is: we were forced to drop the Narutoverse's civilisation level to the very rough equivalent of the 12th century in order to make the tech, population numbers etc. make any kind of sense (reminder: Kishimoto didn't know the order of magnitude of the number of ninja in a village). Plus it became a death world. If we'd imported Early Middle Ages culture and ethics on top of that... well, the result just wouldn't be fun to write or play for anyone. Even for me, as it's too easy to be evil in a world where the majority of people are property and things like sexism and xenophobia are too ubiquitous to exist as concepts.

Click to shrink...

Well, if you're already going to do that, why take to the extreme for the sake of juxtaposition? With the exception of the small number of serious decision makers have everybody born with the ethics of a Federation Starfleet officer and watch them end up more neurotic than Kagome as the world breaks them.

In fact, that sounds like a good explanation for an increasing level of personality disorder and unhealthy coping mechanisms with rank.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

All this is regrettably unsimulationist of us. The fact is: we were forced to drop the Narutoverse's civilisation level to the very rough equivalent of the 12th century in order to make the tech, population numbers etc. make any kind of sense (reminder: Kishimoto didn't know the order of magnitude of the number of ninja in a village). Plus it became a death world. If we'd imported Early Middle Ages culture and ethics on top of that... well, the result just wouldn't be fun to write or play for anyone. Even for me, as it's too easy to be evil in a world where the majority of people are property and things like sexism and xenophobia are too ubiquitous to exist as concepts.

Click to shrink...

While it may be unsimulationist, I think you still have room to make it consistent. If there was ever a point in history where enlightenment-ideals could come to prominence (even if it's just Hagoromo's philosophy that he spread across the world along with chakra or something), then some of those ideals (the ones that don't get in the way of keeping you and yours safe in the deathworld, at least) could prove pretty hard to shake off. In that way, tribal xenophobia could be a mindset grafted on top of lofty enlightenment ideals instead of the base foundation of a person's outlook, or something to that effect.

But then, I don't know what you've got defined for the history of the world (yet. Growth mindset) so for all I know it's impossible for something like that to ever have happened.

 

[Velorien]

In fact, that sounds like a good explanation for an increasing level of personality disorder and unhealthy coping mechanisms with rank.

Click to shrink...

Do we need one? They're death world child soldiers who start killing at twelve and don't stop until they're crippled or dead. As they go up in rank, their skills mean they do more killing and less everything else, and they take on more dangerous missions where they probably watch their lower-ranking buddies die. All things considered, it's amazing how few missing-nin there are.

 

[Noumero]

Re: Mist harems.

• Jiraiya's example was a "worst of the possible outcomes" hypothetical. It's something Mist could, in theory, implement, and it's something Ren would, in his opinion, be willing to do. It doesn't mean that this idea even occurred to her at this point in time, or that she has plans to put it in motion, or that it's actually viable taking into account factors unknown to Jiraiya.
• Jiraiya's example was the most extreme strategy out of an entire class of "ninja mass-production" strategies. In his version, (1) all female ninja are (2) fully and (3) compulsively turned into child-creating machines. It's not the most practical one.
  • (1) does not need to be true. Mist could target only the less politically and combatively powerful kunoichi: the clanless, the untalented ones, et cetera.
  • (2) and (3) do not need to be true. In Jiraiya's example, women were "pumping out babies until they die in childbirth". Instead, Mist could suggest that a particular subset of female ninja give birth to at least one child every N years, with large rewards for complying and unpleasant but bearable consequences if not. Further, Mist could research into medical ninjutsu and seals to improve mothers' survival chances.
  • It would be notably less effective than Jiraiya's version, but much easier to implement.
  • Next generation, Mist could make a partial switch to Jiraiya's version, having indoctrinated the new generation accordingly.

 

[Cariyaga]

All things considered, it's amazing how few missing-nin there are.

Click to shrink...

The Hidden Mist has never nor will ever have a missing nin. Report to the Reeducation Offices for further information.

 

[Emstar]

Re: Mist harems.

• Jiraiya's example was the most extreme strategy out of an entire class of "ninja mass-production" strategies. In his version, (1) all female ninja are (2) fully and (3) compulsively turned into child-creating machines. It's not the most practical one.

Click to shrink...

I agree, we should just invent dimensional travel and that would solve manpower issues for the foreseeable future.

 

[Briefvoice]

I dislike the term "child soldiers" in discussing things because it's a term that is technically accurate but also wildly misleading in many ways.

"Child soldiers" as we think of them are common infantry given a rifle and forced to kill with little training or preparation. Entirely disposal. Every ninja (yes even clanless ninja) is the result of years of training and preparation, all of which will be lost if they die. They're much more like members of the elite warrior class that we've seen many times through history. Think the warrior bands of Anglo-Saxon Dark Age kings or the knights of the Middle Ages or even Midshipmen in the 19th century British Navy. It's still a hard and often brutal life, but young warriors are valued as the upcoming future generation whom it is the responsibility of the adults to educate and guide, not disposable chum.

Young ninja maybe go into battle somewhat earlier due to enhanced physical capabilities, but it's still 12 versus 14 or 15. They aren't that far off those historical examples. I'd argue it's really far off any modern discussion of child soldiers or why using child soldiers is bad.

 

[Anderkent]

I dislike the term "child soldiers" in discussing things because it's a term that is technically accurate but also wildly misleading in many ways.

"Child soldiers" as we think of them are common infantry given a rifle and forced to kill with little training or preparation. Entirely disposal. Every ninja (yes even clanless ninja) is the result of years of training and preparation, all of which will be lost if they die. They're much more like members of the elite warrior class that we've seen many times through history. Think the warrior bands of Anglo-Saxon Dark Age kings or the knights of the Middle Ages or even Midshipmen in the 19th century British Navy. It's still a hard and often brutal life, but young warriors are valued as the upcoming future generation whom it is the responsibility of the adults to educate and guide, not disposable chum.

Young ninja maybe go into battle somewhat earlier due to enhanced physical capabilities, but it's still 12 versus 14 or 15. They aren't that far off those historical examples. I'd argue it's really far off any modern discussion of child soldiers or why using child soldiers is bad.

Click to shrink...

I think midshipmen is very good metaphor; but nowadays we would still consider such practice deplorable. Needs must, I guess - in a state of prolonged war, I guess common perception would change, and 14-16 year olds being 'apprentices to officer' wouldn't be as frowned upon.

 

[Threnodist]

While it may be unsimulationist, I think you still have room to make it consistent. If there was ever a point in history where enlightenment-ideals could come to prominence (even if it's just Hagoromo's philosophy that he spread across the world along with chakra or something), then some of those ideals (the ones that don't get in the way of keeping you and yours safe in the deathworld, at least) could prove pretty hard to shake off. In that way, tribal xenophobia could be a mindset grafted on top of lofty enlightenment ideals instead of the base foundation of a person's outlook, or something to that effect.

But then, I don't know what you've got defined for the history of the world (yet. Growth mindset) so for all I know it's impossible for something like that to ever have happened.

Click to shrink...

I honestly think any attempts at comparing our world to the Narutoverse are doomed to failure. I was just in the process of writing out a big post explaining why the Narutoverse is less likely to use Enlightenment philosophy to justify xenophobia and racism because there is little chance colonialism will be a thing. However, I then realized colonialism won't be a thing for a long time because the material conditions for it (the need to expand a capitalist economy) don't exist yet. We're in a feudal society right now, but we're also seeing hints of ideology that is native to a liberal society. As Velorien aptly pointed out, this is very unsimulationist, but it really messes up how we can predict the sociopolitical development of the world because we have the potential ideological basis for a societal revolution, but not the material basis for it.

This puts us in a weird position where we need to liberalize the economy fast, in a world where colonialism isn't possible which probably means we'll need to go to war so Leaf can get more resources, but that's pretty directly opposed to Uplift.

At the same time we also need to figure out a way to get the Merchant Council more power so a new middle-class can emerge a la French Revolution.

BUT WAIT AND IM THINKING THIS IN REAL TIME

theres no way that kind of revolution could occur in this world, we have a pseudo-fascist military dictatorship in power that has a complete monopoly on violence whose soldiers are each worth hundreds if not thousands of civilians.

I feel like this world is screwed y'all. Like, literally the only way I see out of this is for us to continually get power in Leaf by transferring the HiveMind once we get into power to set ourselves up as the next Hokage once whatever our current iteration of the HiveMind becomes Hokage (or extremely influential to the Hokage). The material conditions to sustain the kind of ideology we want just don't exist

 

[Emstar]

I feel like this world is screwed y'all. Like, literally the only way I see out of this is for us to continually get power in Leaf by transferring the HiveMind once we get into power to set ourselves up as the next Hokage once whatever our current iteration of the HiveMind becomes Hokage (or extremely influential to the Hokage). The material conditions to sustain the kind of ideology we want just don't exist

Click to shrink...

Conquer Everyone is an option.

 

[Threnodist]

Conquer Everyone is an option.

Click to shrink...

That'd require such a massive infrastructure of oppression that it would either backfire spectacularly and collapse or we'd be creating so much inertia against Uplift ideals that it would never succeed.

Also I'm wary of that kind of long term utilitarian calculus. It tends to result in... unsettling consequences

 

[hYGP]

I honestly think any attempts at comparing our world to the Narutoverse are doomed to failure. I was just in the process of writing out a big post explaining why the Narutoverse is less likely to use Enlightenment philosophy to justify xenophobia and racism because there is little chance colonialism will be a thing. However, I then realized colonialism won't be a thing for a long time because the material conditions for it (the need to expand a capitalist economy) don't exist yet. We're in a feudal society right now, but we're also seeing hints of ideology that is native to a liberal society. As Velorien aptly pointed out, this is very unsimulationist, but it really messes up how we can predict the sociopolitical development of the world because we have the potential ideological basis for a societal revolution, but not the material basis for it.

This puts us in a weird position where we need to liberalize the economy fast, in a world where colonialism isn't possible which probably means we'll need to go to war so Leaf can get more resources, but that's pretty directly opposed to Uplift.

At the same time we also need to figure out a way to get the Merchant Council more power so a new middle-class can emerge a la French Revolution.

BUT WAIT AND IM THINKING THIS IN REAL TIME

theres no way that kind of revolution could occur in this world, we have a pseudo-fascist military dictatorship in power that has a complete monopoly on violence whose soldiers are each worth hundreds if not thousands of civilians.

I feel like this world is screwed y'all. Like, literally the only way I see out of this is for us to continually get power in Leaf by transferring the HiveMind once we get into power to set ourselves up as the next Hokage once whatever our current iteration of the HiveMind becomes Hokage (or extremely influential to the Hokage). The material conditions to sustain the kind of ideology we want just don't exist

Click to shrink...

1 TL;DR: Your local chakra deathworld is seriously screwed when "become God" is legitimately easier than "get a majority of people to 21st century ethics"

2 TL;DR: I think you have a few critical points which might make your points less valid then they seem. The most important one being: ninja are not homogenous. There's actually a pretty stark divide, and if someone were to say, rally the clanless' total military might with significant fractions of civilian economic might, a revolution might not be totally out of the picture.

 

[Roomba]

Chattel slavery?

Click to shrink...

What about it? Putting aside effective differences between slaves and serfs (as technically slavery in most of Europe had been illegal for a couple centuries at that point), wholesale slaughter of either hadn't been acceptable at that point.

All this is regrettably unsimulationist of us. The fact is: we were forced to drop the Narutoverse's civilisation level to the very rough equivalent of the 12th century in order to make the tech, population numbers etc. make any kind of sense (reminder: Kishimoto didn't know the order of magnitude of the number of ninja in a village). Plus it became a death world. If we'd imported Early Middle Ages culture and ethics on top of that... well, the result just wouldn't be fun to write or play for anyone. Even for me, as it's too easy to be evil in a world where the majority of people are property and things like sexism and xenophobia are too ubiquitous to exist as concepts.

Click to shrink...

Don't be too hard on yourselves. It can't be understated just how alien the mindset and habits of an average person from XIIth century Europe would be to us.

I would, however, suggest hashing out what historical period you're looking to emulate, in broad strokes at least. As I said, I think the XVIIIth century, with its masses of serfs still awaiting material uplift via the industrial revolution, but also with the intellectual elites slowly making their first forays into more humanitarian philosophies and practices, fits reasonably well.

 

[Emstar]

That'd require such a massive infrastructure of oppression that it would either backfire spectacularly and collapse or we'd be creating so much inertia against Uplift ideals that it would never succeed.

Also I'm wary of that kind of long term utilitarian calculus. It tends to result in... unsettling consequences

Click to shrink...

I dunno, it seems like most people are pretty uniformly terrible to their populaces.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

That'd require such a massive infrastructure of oppression that it would either backfire spectacularly and collapse or we'd be creating so much inertia against Uplift ideals that it would never succeed.

Also I'm wary of that kind of long term utilitarian calculus. It tends to result in... unsettling consequences

Click to shrink...

We're actually not that far away from a potential Pax Konoha, the point where it becomes impossible to truly challenge Leaf militarily.

Leaf has bested Mist, to the point where we're binding Water Country to Fire Country in a strong alliance, and Leaf already has a long alliance with Sand. That's three of the major villages, already a solid power block.

Now you add Skywalkers, "The biggest strategic shift since the sage of six paths", and Leaf very well could crush Rock, Cloud, and whatever minor villages they get in their coalition, and become indisputably the strongest power on the continent.

Of course, Akatsuki could throw all of that in a blender and take over the world themselves, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

 

[Cariyaga]

Of course, Akatsuki could throw all of that in a blender and take over the world themselves, but we'll cross burn that bridge when we get to it.

Click to shrink...

Fixed that for you.

 

[Wiadi]

I would, however, suggest hashing out what historical period you're looking to emulate, in broad strokes at least. As I said, I think the XVIIIth century, with its masses of serfs still awaiting material uplift via the industrial revolution, but also with the intellectual elites slowly making their first forays into more humanitarian philosophies and practices, fits reasonably well.

Click to shrink...

On the other hand, the development of human society has not historically been uniform, nor is there reason to believe that the paths it has followed in our world are the only plausible ones. Moreover, this setting has a number of relevant factors not present on Earth, which would also affect societal patterns. As Threnodist asserted above, it seems likely that no real-world time period will provide a good model for how things should look in-universe.

 

[Roomba]

We're actually not that far away from a potential Pax Konoha, the point where it becomes impossible to truly challenge Leaf militarily.

Leaf has bested Mist, to the point where we're binding Water Country to Fire Country in a strong alliance, and Leaf already has a long alliance with Sand. That's three of the major villages, already a solid power block.

Now you add Skywalkers, "The biggest strategic shift since the sage of six paths", and Leaf very well could crush Rock, Cloud, and whatever minor villages they get in their coalition, and become indisputably the strongest power on the continent.

Of course, Akatsuki could throw all of that in a blender and take over the world themselves, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Click to shrink...

Does that actually help, though? It's one thing to be an uncontested power. It's another to enter into a war of subjugation against the other villages with the intent of forcing our ideology upon them.

I'm always suspicious when the hivemind makes serious efforts to bolster Leaf militarily, because I'm not confident that actually helps much beyond a certain threshold. Being strong enough to be unthreatened by opportunistic coalitions is one thing, but actual world conquest I don't find acceptable as a course of action. I am very confident it would make things a lot worse for everyone.

 

[Kiba]

I doubt conquest will actually achieve what we want.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

Does that actually help, though? It's one thing to be an uncontested power. It's another to enter into a war of subjugation against the other villages with the intent of forcing our ideology upon them.

I'm always suspicious when the hivemind makes serious efforts to bolster Leaf militarily, because I'm not confident that actually helps much beyond a certain threshold. Being strong enough to be unthreatened by opportunistic coalitions is one thing, but actual world conquest I don't find acceptable as a course of action. I am very confident it would make things a lot worse for everyone.

Click to shrink...

The main goal to get out of this is to eliminate scorch squads and allow for investment into chakra beast elimination and infrastructure technology. Even if relations between the villages remain somewhat hostile, the new status quo of not preparing for war means that productivity can be spent on saving the human race.

The first step in Uplift is for there to be a human race to uplift, everything else is secondary.

 

[Roomba]

The main goal to get out of this is to eliminate scorch squads and allow for investment into chakra beast elimination and infrastructure technology. Even if relations between the villages remain somewhat hostile, the new status quo of not preparing for war means that productivity can be spent on saving the human race.

The first step in Uplift is for there to be a human race to uplift, everything else is secondary.

Click to shrink...

I'd like to observe that the existence of scorch squads remains unconfirmed, and the exact reasons for human civilzation's presumed (as we have not confirmed this either) decline remain unknown.

Secondly, if you think that the other villages' reactions to the emergence of Leaf as an unassailable superpower will be to stop preparing for war and quietly accept the new status quo, then you are indeed very optimistic.

 

[Cariyaga]

I'd like to observe that the existence of scorch squads remains unconfirmed, and the exact reasons for human civilzation's presumed (as we have not confirmed this either) decline remain unknown.

Secondly, if you think that the other villages' reactions to the emergence of Leaf as an unassailable superpower will be to stop preparing for war and quietly accept the new status quo, then you are indeed very optimistic.

Click to shrink...

Are you saying that Keiko lied to us about civilization's decline?

 

[Emstar]

This is a wonderful tangent on historical accuracy and relative morality of world conquest, but we should focus on more pressing matters?


How do we convince Ami, Ino, Hinata and Sasuke to join the future harem?

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

Are you saying that Keiko lied to us about civilization's decline?

Click to shrink...

Easy there, Keiko made an estimate from the data she had access to. I believe her because I don't see any reason why the data would be misleading, but it could still be misleading.

We don't know if Scorch Squads are a thing, but they tick off all the plausibility boxes and make for particularly effective peacetime warfare so I'd be surprised if they didn't exist, and thus I believe Kagome when he says that they exist, but for all that they're plausible and probable they could still be wrong.

I simply feel like these concepts are likely enough that, given their severe negative impacts on the world, it's better to act as if they exist than as if they don't.

 

[Cariyaga]

Easy there, Keiko made an estimate from the data she had access to. I believe her because I don't see any reason why the data would be misleading, but it could still be misleading.

We don't know if Scorch Squads are a thing, but they tick off all the plausibility boxes and make for particularly effective peacetime warfare so I'd be surprised if they didn't exist, and thus I believe Kagome when he says that they exist, but for all that they're plausible and probable they could still be wrong.

I simply feel like these concepts are likely enough that, given their severe negative impacts on the world, it's better to act as if they exist than as if they don't.

Click to shrink...

I apologize if that came off aggressive; it was not meant in that way. My point there was that if we're not trusting Keiko to give us good information, I'm not sure why we could trust any other demographics we could find.