What this omake about? Hana's hivemind?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Yes, specifically an insufficientvelocity-style negaverse of that.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
The option I'm leaning towards these days is some kind of Noburi-units. Either we ask him to drain at a fixed rate and measure how long it takes for Noburi to drain them dry, or we create small cups of water that Noburi can only fit so much chakra into (assuming that's how his bloodline works, of course), and ask him to fill up as many as he can.
The benefit of this tactic over the others is that the volunteer can immediately drink back their chakra and proceed to testing one of the techniques.
I also came up with a good idea the other day, for scheduling volunteers and stuff: if Hazou and Keiko are willing to help out, then Noburi can drain us and use our combined chakra totals to refill the volunteer ninja's chakra reserves after they finish one technique, allowing them to complete all their tests in a single session. We'd have to stagger each volunteer by a day or so, and the whole experiment would take longer as a result, but doing this demands less from the volunteers as they only have to show up once.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Umm, actually this DOES provide some evidence for this (see my writeup in discord). If Dispel costs vary then so do ratios of (MAX # TECHNIQUE CAST)/(MAX # DISPEL CAST) between ninja. A large number of trials with different ninja will solve this question empirically.
A priori, if Dispel costs have reason to vary greatly then it should vary randomly or only vary in select individuals (those with a bloodline, unique chakra, Super Chakra Control!, etc) that we wouldn't be testing. Anything more complicated is tantamount to "A Wizard is doing the accounting." as far as the MfD-verse is concerned, so I think we can safely gainsay those possibilities.
E: Regardless, I think I prefer Option 2 over Option 1 or Option Aburame, simply because it will get done the quickest IMO and doesn't rely as heavily on external factors (Aburame, us making a Seal)
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We could possibly use kikaichu (Aburame bugs). Have 1000 kikaichu consume chakra until full and divide the amount of chakra consumed by 1000 to get the average amount of chakra consumed by a single kikaichu. That's probably a very small amount of chakra, and much less subject to error than Noburi-draining (since Noburi is one person who might be influenced by unknown factors, but the average of a thousand bugs can reduce such influence).
E: Once we've isolated a kilo kickaichu's (Kk) of chakra, we have Noburi take up a fresh barrel (no chakra) and drain 1000 unfed kikaichu which we then feed to a person who has been drained to exhaustion. Then we have kikaichu feed from that person in blocks of 10 until that person is exhausted again so that we know the base level of chakra in a kikaichu to the nearest 10.
Then we have Noburi drain the 1000 fed kilaichu and feed that chakra to the exhausted person. Then measure how many kikaichu in blocks of ten it takes to exhaust them again, and drain the amount of chakra of the unfed kikaichu to get exactly 1Kk into that person's system.
E: Once we've isolated a kilo kickaichu's (Kk) of chakra, we have Noburi take up a fresh barrel (no chakra) and drain 1000 unfed kikaichu which we then feed to a person who has been drained to exhaustion. Then we have kikaichu feed from that person in blocks of 10 until that person is exhausted again so that we know the base level of chakra in a kikaichu to the nearest 10.
Then we have Noburi drain the 1000 fed kilaichu and feed that chakra to the exhausted person. Then measure how many kikaichu in blocks of ten it takes to exhaust them again, and drain the amount of chakra of the unfed kikaichu to get exactly 1Kk into that person's system.
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- Location
- Yes.
While true, I'd rather we get results via VD first and then prove it's not a pile of BS by using a separate source of chakra drain (kikaichu) after.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Generally, imgur or gfycat are easier ways to upload images.
- Location
- Milky Way
I think this can work pretty well. If we create a mini wakahisa barrel (say 250 mL) the maximum amount of Chakra it can hold will probably be a pretty good standard for 1 noburi-unit.
But a problem I see in this is that it is not very scalable as it is dependent on a Wakahisa. If we want to eventually document all Leaf technique's Chakra costs it will take up a lot of Noburi's time.
The Wakahisa bloodline is by part also a secret technique and hence on Noburi's death unless we have a good alliance with Mist we can no longer use noburi units.
How about this? It's not very direct. May be not very intuitive, but it can be used by anyone.
Reposting my edit:
Once we've isolated a kilo kickaichu's (Kk) of chakra, we have Noburi take up a fresh barrel (no chakra) and drain 1000 unfed kikaichu which we then feed to a person who has been drained to exhaustion. Then we have kikaichu feed from that person in blocks of 10 until that person is exhausted again so that we know the base level of chakra in a kikaichu to the nearest 10.
Then we have Noburi drain the 1000 fed kikaichu and feed that chakra to the exhausted person. Then measure how many kikaichu in blocks of ten it takes to exhaust them again, and drain the amount of chakra of the unfed kikaichu to get exactly 1Kk into that person's system.
Once we've isolated a kilo kickaichu's (Kk) of chakra, we have Noburi take up a fresh barrel (no chakra) and drain 1000 unfed kikaichu which we then feed to a person who has been drained to exhaustion. Then we have kikaichu feed from that person in blocks of 10 until that person is exhausted again so that we know the base level of chakra in a kikaichu to the nearest 10.
Then we have Noburi drain the 1000 fed kikaichu and feed that chakra to the exhausted person. Then measure how many kikaichu in blocks of ten it takes to exhaust them again, and drain the amount of chakra of the unfed kikaichu to get exactly 1Kk into that person's system.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
The way I see it, in order of time/agency/resource commitment we have:
Easiest (Questionable evidence)
1)Just have Noburi do it roughly with VD
Cons: Innaccurate or prejudiced info
Easy(weak to Decent Evidence):
1) Arithmetic/Statistic analysis of techniques: quantify in terms of dispel.
Cons: Need to do a lot of trials
2) Quantify in terms of a seal
Cons: How to calibrate such seal? Check it costs uniform chakra? Takes time to make
Medium(Decent to Strong)
1) Arithmetic/Statistical analysis of Aburame Bugs
We can do the VD one and the Technique one much faster than the Seal one. We might be able to do the Aburame as fast as those two, but it requires willing Aburame.
If we do any two or three of the above it would give (IMO) very strong empirical evidence for the thing we want to prove.
Easiest (Questionable evidence)
1)Just have Noburi do it roughly with VD
Cons: Innaccurate or prejudiced info
Easy(weak to Decent Evidence):
1) Arithmetic/Statistic analysis of techniques: quantify in terms of dispel.
Cons: Need to do a lot of trials
2) Quantify in terms of a seal
Cons: How to calibrate such seal? Check it costs uniform chakra? Takes time to make
Medium(Decent to Strong)
1) Arithmetic/Statistical analysis of Aburame Bugs
We can do the VD one and the Technique one much faster than the Seal one. We might be able to do the Aburame as fast as those two, but it requires willing Aburame.
If we do any two or three of the above it would give (IMO) very strong empirical evidence for the thing we want to prove.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
So, make a calorimeter for chakra? Sounds interesting.
What I really want is for a bomb calorimeter to be necessary, just so we can tell Kagome the name.
Unfortunately, I don't think that would be very useful for chakra quantification. Maybe if we found a seal that created combustible matter in proportion to how much chakra we were putting into it? But that's still worse than just using a seal that makes light or heat, like suggested...
Something that might actually be relevant though, is that seals need to be touched in order to have chakra put into them. This means there has to be a hole in the calorimeter compartment that has the seal. In order to keep the system as insulated as possible, I would suggest using a seal that only emits light/heat from one side, and can be activated from the other side (like macerators). Glue the seal up against the hole so that the seal itself is acting as some insulation for the hole. Possibly use some very heavy paper for the seal, for more insulation? This would allow the seal to be activated and emit energy into the compartment it is in, while not emitting any energy outside the system, and also while insulating the compartment a little to prevent too much heat from entering/leaving the system.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
The point of this experiment is to find out if there are any common techniques with a constant chakra costs, so that ninja can measure their capacity in terms of it, and use that capacity to measure other techniques.
If all goes well, we'd use Noburi to find out that Dispel has a constant cost and then everyone can use their capacity in terms of Dispels to calculate the cost of, say, MEW.
Also, Noburi's bloodline is not a secret technique, only certain parts of it like Mist Drain are. Much like how Keiko flaunts the fact that she's the Pangolin Summoner, Noburi gets to flaunt that he can drain people of their chakra.
- Location
- Milky Way
I meant the procedure/technique to create a Wakahisa body.
If I remember right Noburi doesn't know the procedure.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
OOC: We know this
IC: We have a vague reason to suspect techniques cost roughly the same, and would like to prove that this is the case. After doing this, we can quantify chakra to a reasonable extent (use Dispels).
An important distinction here is that everything we need to design has to :
1) Use science to confirm/deny our hypothesis IC.
2) Designed and framed using our current IC knowledge.
3) Actually lead them to the "correct answer".
4)Be an entirely reasonable series of experiments to propose independently of any meta-knowledge.
I think its important to keep that in mind.
- Location
- Milky Way
My headcannon for stats, CP until now has been that they are convenient abstractions for the players and the QM to model upon. I never saw them to be accurately reflected (at least completely) in the MFD world. So I always saw k CP cost for a technique as the average cost to perform what is generally accepted as a successful and normal application of the technique.
If we assume dispel cost to be constant 1 CP. Then every technique we know has a cost that is an integer multiple of dispel cost. Which for me makes the MfD world feel less realistic.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Well, perhaps Dispel costs 0.94 CP in actuality, and we just see 1 CP out of convenience? Or maybe when we see a technique with 18 CP cost, it's actually 18.23? We have no knowledge of the QMs locking themselves into any one interpretation of things, so they have plenty of room to create a paradigm that works for this if they so choose.
So, can't say I'll be much help to folks for the grant except for providing info on a gem stumbled on recently.
In case chakra quantification becomes more involved IC, I think that the links below might be good real world fluff material for the chakra system. They describe a north Korean scientist research into meridians hiding in the circulatory and lymphatic sys around 60 yrs ago. His research is problematic since he's claiming to have found another organ the vast majority of scientists have missed, one dealing with a ancient eastern metaphysics . Plus, he tried to link it with pressure points and acupuncture. Still cool to think people have papers on this stuff, even if it's hogwash.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2005290113002082
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-primo-vascular-system-the-n-rays-of-acupuncture/
Primo Vascular System: Past, Present, and Future
Wikipediocracy - View topic - On-going debate on WP - a poster example of Wikipediocracy?
The Primo Vascular System | SpringerLink
Edit: Last link is juicy.
Dig deeper at your own peril.
In case chakra quantification becomes more involved IC, I think that the links below might be good real world fluff material for the chakra system. They describe a north Korean scientist research into meridians hiding in the circulatory and lymphatic sys around 60 yrs ago. His research is problematic since he's claiming to have found another organ the vast majority of scientists have missed, one dealing with a ancient eastern metaphysics . Plus, he tried to link it with pressure points and acupuncture. Still cool to think people have papers on this stuff, even if it's hogwash.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2005290113002082
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-primo-vascular-system-the-n-rays-of-acupuncture/
Primo Vascular System: Past, Present, and Future
Wikipediocracy - View topic - On-going debate on WP - a poster example of Wikipediocracy?
The Primo Vascular System | SpringerLink
Edit: Last link is juicy.
Dig deeper at your own peril.
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Thanks for the info. We might maybe check this out at some point. If I had to guess, it's due to base site javascript overwriting the element. We'll have to render it separately and use css magic, probably.
Sure, will get to this at some point. No github yet but I'll try to throw it on there if I remember.
This is intentional.
But mostly I'm lazy and it works because it's funny.
I AM SO SORRY
---
Also on todo list that may never get done: cross-browser/device compatibility. It's really just a matter of running some js/ajax on the page, so shouldn't be terribly difficult.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
??
pls?
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Found it!
- Location
- Over there
If Mari wasn't broken right now, I'm sure she'd be able to explain it to him.
Origami Clock
Right twice a day
- Location
- Brighton, UK
It's at some level less of a bloodline thing as a secret clan surgery to shape the future growth of a newborn's chakra network.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I was wondering actually if this part is bloodline related at all, or just a secret procedure known only to the Wakahisa.