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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Suggestion for Hiding in the Mist (for Noburi)
Key- Component: Setting (Strain Cost)
Effect: 1 (10)
Duration: 1 minute (60)
Durability: - (0)
Range: 1 (centered on self) (20)
Casting Speed: Supplemental (20)
AoE: Multiple Zones (ad hoc - 80)
Major Skill Penalty - Alertness (-30)
Total Strain: 160
CP Cost - 32

(Reducing down to Range 0 and 1 Zone reduces strain by 60, so the cost of a smaller, one zone version is 20 CP)

The user blankets the local and adjacent zones in a thick mist. Unless a creature has non-sight based senses, all creatures within the mist take -1(Effect) AB to Physical skill and Alertness checks against other creatures, and lose line-of-sight allowing for Stealth checks to approach as well as mostly preventing melee/ranged attack. Creatures may make an Alertness check against Stealth with -20 Circumstance to identify the location of a creature within the same zone, and -40 in an adjacent zone, and may attack as usual on success.
 
Roomba said:
I've always thought that our influence on Hazou's mind should make him develop a Messiah Complex. The way we think about our participation in the world, how we're the only ones with real agency and are therefore responsible for everything, resulting in neurotically bullheaded attempts at fixing every problem we encounter - all this should translate to an obsession with "fixing things" in an actual person constantly bombarded with plans to do that exactly.

It even neatly explains Hazou's problems recognizing the agency of other people. In his heart of hearts, he believes they have none, and that it's all on him.
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That's exactly how I wouldn't describe it, to be honest.

The way I see his Savior Syndrome thing... It's not seeing others as having a lack of agency -- it's seeing your own agency as the only thing you have control over. Basically, everything is always your fault because you could always have done something to help.

That he had to kill those three genin that came after him when leaving the Liberator Camp? His fault. He wasn't paying enough attention.

That Mountain nin attacked his team during the night? His fault. He could have politicked better. Or at all. (Ignore that it was a bad idea. He would.)

That Kagome killed several of them? His fault. He should have known how Kagome would respond.

Savior Syndrome isn't nice, it's not healthy, even if managed, but at its basis, it's not a reflection on how he views other people -- it's how he views himself: as responsible for everything that ever happens. It certainly can lead into viewing other people as lacking agency, but it does not do so inherently.
 
Cariyaga said:
So...

We're going to go visit him, right?
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MMKII said:
Rock Lee:

TYS: 3
SoY: 27
FP: 1025

Trouble: Awkward Innuendo


_______________________

Can we just become besties with Lee? IC he may be annoying, but the guy has this clarity of purpose that is almost dauntingly absolute.

Like, he exists to punch the shit out of things and scream about youth, and is perfectly content with that.

We could use some simplicity in our social interactions.
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MadScientist said:
In fact, Y'know what? This has been a long time coming:

[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Rivals

Any compels in this chapter should be avoided by spending FP.
  • Hazou remembers that he used to be somewhat good at dealing with people -- at least near the start of his missing nin career, but this seems to have degraded horribly and that scares him. He spends some time considering this.
    • Making a resolution to improve, Hazou realises he can kill two chakra beasts with one kunai, and hatches a plan to improve himself and make Lee more tolerable all at once.
    • Hazou spars with Lee. After the spar, Hazou takes him aside for a private conversation.
    • Hazou shares his fears about his alarming number of social failings in recent times, displaying incompetence.
    • Subtlety will go over Lee's head. Hazou tells him outright that his speech patterns are making people uncomfortable, as they interpret many of his phrases as homoerotic innuendo. This is a social failing on Lee's part, also a display of incompetence.
    • But incompetence can be overcome. Hazou challenges Lee to a contest of eternal rivals of who can improve their empathy and social grace the best.
  • Continue the previous plan in addition to this scene.


Uh...? I don't? Dunno where you got that from...?
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At this point I am convinced that Lee is some sort of horrific Nara mutant who knows exactly what he is doing. That, or the Sage just screwing with the mortals.



MMKII said:
Heh.

  • Hazou will ask Noburi, Mari, Ino, Jiraiya and Hana for girl advice.
    • Hazou explains the (now fixed) Akane Situation to each of them.
    • Hazou is very glad that Akane is dispelled of any thoughts of them "Never being friends." and is really glad that his response of "They will always be friends." seemed to fix the issue.
      • Gee, what a silly thing to worry about.
    • Regardless, he asks for advice on how to better navigate such complex social situations.
      • In particular he doesn't want to fuck up his relationship with his girlfriend again.
        • Hazou will go pretty damn far for Akane, in this respect.
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This is being overthought. If you want him to figure it out, just tell him to kiss her.
 
Is it wrong that I mostly want to improve our social skills and resolve things with Akane so we can be ready to make a move on Ami?

I mean, come on, even the QMs ship it:
Velorien said:
There was a dazed look in Hazō's eyes which sent chills down Kei's spine. It occurred to her that Ami happened to be a playful, energetic and self-possessed older girl, and thus in the dead centre of Hazō's strike zone.
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Comment for posterity:
Velorien said:
rkyeun said:
[X] Hazō's desperate attempts to make it clear that he didn't mean to imply anything by his parting shot to Akane,
-[X] except for the stuff he was implying,
--[X] which, no, it wasn't meant to be a statement that he like liked her,
---[X] but that is not to say he doesn't not like like her,
-[X] and obviously he was just trying to express his deep affection for her as a friend and as her master
--[X] without in any way denying other possibilities which may or may not be appropriate in the future.
-[Q] (Damn, I am to romance what Rock Lee is to stealth.)
[X] Akane why are you beating your head against the wall?
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Why can I not rate this "like" twice?
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(Also this:
faflec said:
Right.

So.

Let's go make lists on how to kill Yagura, yes?
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)
 
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Yikes. There foot in your mouth and there being goddamn brain dead.

I dunno how you can be a ninja and ALSO be this stupid. It also a fatal flaw cause it will happen every time a social event occurs to do the maximum damage when you least expect it.

Also that messiah complex? That goddamn dumb. How in the hell did missing-nin even get such a mindset?

in a rational naruto quest, that shit is never going to end well. even without the whole thing of transformation ninjutsu that would make anyone paranoid. Too much power exist in individuals for world wide peace to occur. If you want society to become better, remove chakra.

Otherwise you get this shitstorm or Xiaxian bull.

Honestly how the hell did the MC become this brain dead to social interactions? He was never like this in the start. There lying or social bullshit from expert ninjas and there THIS.

And a fatal flaw will never be fixed unless something drastic occur. that why it a fatal flaw. people usually don't survive said fatally that said flaw allow to occur. Maybe the MC said something stupid at the wrong time and a teammate or his mom died.

Hell it happened before and it got him and his team kick out of the village before. It will occur yet again to hurt jirayha as a hokage and his own "clan".

Cause getting kicked out of the village didn't change the mc? Then only death of himself or others will.
 
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Velorien said:
If Hazō permanently removes his foot from his mouth, should he also lose the power to move people with unfiltered sincerity?
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Echoing what Cariyaga said, in this particular case I think that a Saviour Syndrome-like Aspect would have an upside similar enough to Open Mouth Insert Foot (earnestness, in a word) that, at least on that scale, the change would not be very significant.

Roomba said:
I guess part of the problem is that it feels like a single-edged sword right now. We don't really get any mileage out of the positive side of it.
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I think that was the point, when we were discussing it. Aspects don't have to be helpful on net to the character, some of them just really suck and you either live with it or change it. Conversely, others just really rock. Think of how many times we've used the Team Uplift tag in the Exams, and compare that with how many times its negative side has shown up.

charlesrwest said:
.... truck scrolls? Last time I brought it up I was told it was "too soon". So... when is the "right time?". Could we bring it up when we talk about shadow clone training?
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The right time is before we training montage, after we stop having stuff that we're right in the middle of doing. At the same time as the shadow clones is a good bet, and if not then we'll still find time for it before the montage, if only because any 'start the montage' plan will mean that we've got everything urgent wrapped up for now, making for a perfect truck scroll opportunity.
 
Cariyaga said:
That's exactly how I wouldn't describe it, to be honest.

The way I see his Savior Syndrome thing... It's not seeing others as having a lack of agency -- it's seeing your own agency as the only thing you have control over. Basically, everything is always your fault because you could always have done something to help.

That he had to kill those three genin that came after him when leaving the Liberator Camp? His fault. He wasn't paying enough attention.

That Mountain nin attacked his team during the night? His fault. He could have politicked better. Or at all. (Ignore that it was a bad idea. He would.)

That Kagome killed several of them? His fault. He should have known how Kagome would respond.

Savior Syndrome isn't nice, it's not healthy, even if managed, but at its basis, it's not a reflection on how he views other people -- it's how he views himself: as responsible for everything that ever happens. It certainly can lead into viewing other people as lacking agency, but it does not do so inherently.
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There are many shades to this particular unhealthy thought pattern. For us, it's something akin to nihil supernum, or "There's no one else here who could be responsible for anything" - an arrogant sentiment that explicitly reduces the agency of others.

Now, Hazou himself isn't arrogant, but he also doesn't show the kind of excessive self-recrimination that you describe. There's a difference between "I am responsible for what happens" and "I am responsible for every past failure".

The situation I think about as an example of what this means, is when Shikamaru was offered leadership of the group during the second event. He seemed nervous and somewhat reluctant to accept it, not at all happy with the additional burden. Hazou, on the other hand, was ready to go anytime. The idea that he shouldn't take charge, that responsibility was something heavy and frightening, never even occurred to him.

My IC interpretation of this trait is that the fiasco of the Noodle mission destroyed Hazou's basic trust in the established order of the world. He came to believe that nothing would be ok unless he personally made it so.
 
Roomba said:
There are many shades to this particular unhealthy thought pattern. For us, it's something akin to nihil supernum, or "There's no one else here who could be responsible for anything" - an arrogant sentiment that explicitly reduces the agency of others.

Now, Hazou himself isn't arrogant, but he also doesn't show the kind of excessive self-recrimination that you describe. There's a difference between "I am responsible for what happens" and "I am responsible for every past failure".

The situation I think about as an example of what this means, is when Shikamaru was offered leadership of the group during the second event. He seemed nervous and somewhat reluctant to accept it, not at all happy with the additional burden. Hazou, on the other hand, was ready to go anytime. The idea that he shouldn't take charge, that responsibility was something heavy and frightening, never even occurred to him.

My IC interpretation of this trait is that the fiasco of the Noodle mission destroyed Hazou's basic trust in the established order of the world. He came to believe that nothing would be ok unless he personally made it so.
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That's not really how I interpret Nihil Supernum -- I interpret it instead as an implicit, willful rejection of the bystander effect, and in context of a hero complex/savior syndrome, not saying "No one else can be responsible" but instead "I must be responsible for everything that happens".

That's not to say that Hazou won't still have agency-related issues, I'm just putting forth that they wouldn't be inherently linked to the proposed Savior Syndrome aspect -- with effort, they could be worked through without affecting the aspect.
 
Roomba said:
There are many shades to this particular unhealthy thought pattern. For us, it's something akin to nihil supernum, or "There's no one else here who could be responsible for anything" - an arrogant sentiment that explicitly reduces the agency of others.
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Thats not what that means.

Nihil supernum is a statement that there is no greater authority that compels you to act a certain way.

Non est salvatori salvator,
neque defensori dominus,
nec pater nec mater,
nihil supernum.

(No rescuer hath the rescuer.
No Lord hath the champion,
no mother and no father,
only nothingness above.)

This is in essence "It is a hero's responsibility to act. No less." This is in no way some statement with respect to agency, or some assumption that the bearer of this mantle is the only one capable of doing anything, merely that at the end of the day it is their responsibility to do something.
 
MMKII said:
Thats not what that means.

Nihil supernum is a statement that there is no greater authority that compels you to act a certain way.

Non est salvatori salvator,
neque defensori dominus,
nec pater nec mater,
nihil supernum.

(No rescuer hath the rescuer.
No Lord hath the champion,
no mother and no father,
only nothingness above.)

This is in essence "It is a hero's responsibility to act. No less." This is in no way some statement with respect to agency, or some assumption that the bearer of this mantle is the only one capable of doing anything, merely that at the end of the day it is their responsibility to do something.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree about the possible interpretations of this phrase, especially in the context of HPMOR as a whole. It's tangential to my point anyway, so I don't see any benefit in arguing about it here.
 
MMKII said:
Heh.

  • Hazou will ask Noburi, Mari, Ino, Jiraiya and Hana for girl advice.
    • Hazou explains the (now fixed) Akane Situation to each of them.
    • Hazou is very glad that Akane is dispelled of any thoughts of them "Never being friends." and is really glad that his response of "They will always be friends." seemed to fix the issue.
      • Gee, what a silly thing to worry about.
    • Regardless, he asks for advice on how to better navigate such complex social situations.
      • In particular he doesn't want to fuck up his relationship with his girlfriend again.
        • Hazou will go pretty damn far for Akane, in this respect.
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I would vote for this.
 
Fuck it.

[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
Evening/Dinner:
  • Talk with Jiraiya
    • Pangolins
      • Goals:
        • Primary:Stop the Pangolins from committing more genocide and slavery.
        • Secondary: Slow them down.
      • Summarize main problems
        • We do not agree with their behavior
        • Encourages backlash of anti-Pangolin alliance coming for Keiko.
        • Shatters OPSEC on Skytowers.
        • Politically destabilizing
      • Analyze the situation
        • Is this likely one or two zealots in Pangolin High Command?
        • How much of this is Pantsaa?
        • Is this normal for summon clans?
          • What do the Toads think? (Especially about the Condor situation).
      • Solutions:
        • Suggest they focus on internal consolidation.
        • Leverage: We supply Skytowers.
          • Cut supply to reduce overall amount of territory they can manage?
        • Direct influence from Keiko as a prominent figure in their society.
        • Pressure from the Toads?
  • After the talk with Jiraiya, Hazou will ask Noburi, Mari, and/or Jiraiya for girl advice.
    • Hazou explains the (now fixed) Akane Situation to each of them.
    • Hazou is very glad that Akane is dispelled of any thoughts of them "Never being friends." and is really glad that his response of "They will always be friends." seemed to fix the issue.
      • Gee, what a silly thing to worry about.
    • Regardless, he asks for advice on how to better navigate such complex social situations.
      • In particular, he doesn't want to fuck up his relationship with his girlfriend again.
Non-essential but desired (off screen/OOC infodump, maybe?) :

Training
  • We were promised "some tricks", we'd like to discuss possibilities.
  • Shadow Clones
    • We suspect the Shadow Clones transfer memories (Itachi vs Naruto).
    • Can we learn this, and use it for better training over the break?
    • Noburi's bloodline and recharging gives effectively massive chakra reserves.
Finances
  • Ask Mari for summary of financial situation.
  • Tournament betting with Mist Yakuza?
    • Should we do a handful of missions to get more seed money for this?
Misc:
  • Hazou gives Jiraiya an organized packet of seal blanks for every seal he's ever seen (with any supporting background info).
  • Hazou and Kagome get started on more Casino Seal research
  • Hazou spends any free time refilling seal loadouts as per this list
 
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[X] Action Plan: Dinner Therapy

* Hazō will talk to family at dinner about the "fight" with his soon-to-be ex-girlfriend Akane.
* Continue the plan.
 
[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
[X] Action plan: Make out paradise
 
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