Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Shard]

Maybe narrow down DoTB so that it is more powerful but in a much shorter burst. Usable like once every (long period of time) but with great and immense progress each time used. This should make Lighthousing suboptimal, because Hazo's research progress is essentially fixed.

Could call it like 'Prophet of the Beyond'.

edit:

A possible mechanic might be something like '2x TYS bonus, but it can only be used once a week' something like.

 

[strange_person]

but it can only be used once a week

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Once a month, night of the full moon.

 

[eaglejarl]

I may be missing something here. Why exactly did Hazō have Mari prepare for an Armageddon Initiative that could destroy the world if Hazō is killed and then not tell anyone about it? A deterrent is pointless if potential aggressors do not know it exists.

Is there a conversation I am missing here? I looked back through the chapters for an explanation and cannot find an explanation.

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You did not miss anything, no. The players voted to set up the deadman switch but they did not choose to tell anyone about it. An argument has been made, by a number of people, that we should have had Hazō inform Orochimaru of this fact on our own without any prompting from the players; I personally found this argument uncompelling, but it's irrelevant anyway because the details of that chapter don't matter. Once he got the bioseal, Hazō was going to die on Orochimaru's schedule. The fact that we wrote this particular version of it instead of another isn't relevant.

I think there are probably some pathways out of this but a very funny one TBH is Hazou appearing right next to Hidan who is currently scouting out the afterlife that is (at the moment) sans-exit, and them having to figure shit out from there. Perhaps Hazou has chakra for mysterious Jashin reasons.

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That does sound pretty funny. Hazō + Akane + Jiraiya + Hidan as a wacky comedy troupe strolling through the afterlife?

I am split between 1 and 3. 1 is IMO the most satisfying one, but 3 offers the most promise; and 1 might be particularly unpromising in the long-term. By which I mean: @eaglejarl, in anything-like-1, would Orochimaru still run away with the rift, or does our leverage change the CBAs such that he decides to cooperate with Leaf? If not, I think 1 would be miserable to play out, and I'd prefer 3.

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We've put breaking simulation on the table, so we can always say that he decides to cooperate with Leaf and then retrofit a reason later.

While we're discussing our preferences, something's been on my mind- what makes fights fun for you?

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Honestly, fights have gotten less fun over the years as Hazō has developed more different abilities. In the beginning we had an absolute shart of a game system that needed fractional exponents to perform a skillcheck, but at least it was simple: Hazō rolled Taijutsu, the other guy rolled Taijutsu, I wrote some punching words. Now, Hazō rolls Taijutsu + (Deceit + Roki) + Macerators + ...etc. (Or whatever other combo of stuff.) The buff stack rules help but it's still complicated.

Granted, these days @Paperclipped mostly steps up, does all the rolls on his own time and hands me a well-organized sheet of mechanics that I can simply execute. Which makes me feel a weird combination of extremely guilty, very grateful, and slightly worried about the quest falling apart if he ever becomes unavailable and @Velorien and I have forgotten how to run combats.

That said, let me try to actually answer the question: simple fights are fun. One on one is great. Fights where it actually matters, which means it's Hazō Prime, not a shadow clone and not a summon. It's an actual fight where there is some risk, not just a sparring match with friends. A sparring match with *rivals* where there is social credit on the line can be good -- it doesn't always have to be death on the line. Ideally there is some narrative stakes to the fight -- Hazō needs to silence the guard in order to free his friends, or fight off the enemies who are attacking their camp, or make a good enough showing that the ancient master will accept him as a pupil, or whatever.

 

[ProperAttorney]

Now, Hazō rolls Taijutsu + (Deceit + Roki) + Macerators + ...etc. (Or whatever other combo of stuff.) The buff stack rules help but it's still complicated.

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These days it's mainly just rocket boots and force claws, ideally via way of a MARS chain. We don't use Macerators anymore. In a Pure Lands setting, it would just be Roki being used as paper seals wouldn't last. I suppose Hazo could wear blanks and infuse them on the go, but idk.

 

[Rafin]

Doylist: I was running with the dream that Velorien wrote.

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Any idea what the Doylist reason for that happening in the dream was? Or are we not yet at the point where knowing that is okay?

 

[Pharos]

Maybe narrow down DoTB so that it is more powerful but in a much shorter burst. Usable like once every (long period of time) but with great and immense progress each time used. This should make Lighthousing suboptimal, because Hazo's research progress is essentially fixed.

Could call it like 'Prophet of the Beyond'.

edit:

A possible mechanic might be something like '2x TYS bonus, but it can only be used once a week' something like.

Click to shrink...

I think something like this is our best option for preventing excessive research/lighthousing.

As an example, Hazō actual-death experience changes DoB to build up Out Inspiration in his head over time. Once a week or so, he can use the inspiration to fall into a research trance where he gets research done extremely quickly.

Maybe it can have its own gradual fixed growth as well, so sealing/runecrafting doesn't become another XP sink. It'd free up XP for combat stats and disincentivize FOOMing for more sealing XP.

The intention is an ability that incentivizes us to do research periodically instead of constantly.

If we were to break the simulation outright though, I'd prefer to have Oro take us as an apprentice instead of killing us. I enjoy Oro as a character and even if we die and return from the afterlife, we will still have to deal with Oro whose reasons for killing us still stand. Unless we're strong enough to survive Oro after the afterlife arc, we can only hide from Oro or die.

 

[Rihaku]

I think one issue with burst-DotB is that Hazou needs the skill level not just to do research, but also to actually infuse the runes in question. If the goal is to prevent excessive research, perhaps he can only use the skill bonus for research one day a week, but otherwise does have the usual access to it for infusing, understanding runes etc.

 

[Retalnus]

To be clear, I have no idea how minatosealing works so that might be really silly but exploding Orochimaru seems like raddest thing we can do. Am I right people? Using a sealing discipline he didn't know about, even better. And after that lesson on not giving away secrets too easily. If we can murder him with sealing in conjunction with traditional Ninja methods (like fists) even better, Orochimaru can see he taught us the last lesson well. No monologue, we don't expect him to come back to learn from this experience (though maybe destroying his contingencies as well is a reach even in a daydream)

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My first impression was to challenge the idea that Orochimaru wouldn't come back. Consider what Kagome told us about the possibility of other rifts. It makes it seem like the afterlife is about to become a revolving door. But actually, now I am having second thoughts. Without chakra, you probably need someone on the outside to help get you but who would want Orochimaru back? The Akatsuki? Meanwhile, there are people who would want Hazou back. It would be a great repudiation of Orochimaru's monologue for him to be stuck in the afterlife while Hazou is brought out.

 

[BonParaAra]

long-time lurker here. i loved chapter 702, and the thread reactions have made it even better. thanks to the QMs for creating such a great world and story, and for the players for spending so much time and effort optimizing the hell out of Hazō!

i want the quest to continue, and i agree with the common sentiment that this could be a good opportunity to get rid of the world-ending threats the players have been focusing on for so long and to push players into more of a punchy direction. i'd totally love to read that!

 

[InquiQual]

Frankly, after reading everyone's notes on what they'd like to see happen, what could happen, what the QMs would like… I'd kinda be down for afterlife quest. It sounds exciting, it sounds fresh, and it means we can get slapped in the face when a familiar person shows up on the other side.

It's back to basics, but in a good way.

 

[Shard]

Disciple of the Beyond

XP Cost: (replaces previous Out-exposure stunt; no XP is spent)
Prerequisites: Sealing 20, Primordial Sealing 20, SSA or similar Out-exposure stunt

Though the summoning scroll is a two-dimensional seal, the secrets of the Out go deeper than just the world of two-dimensional seals. The user's relationship with the corrupted memories matures, and the memory's intensity fades as its versatility grows, allowing the user to understand all seals through that eldritch lens.

This replaces a previous Out-exposure stunt. All effects of that stunt are lost.

The user gains the following benefits:

• The user gains an optional, AB-increasing bonus of +TYS to Sealing and all related or derived disciplines (including Primordial Sealing and any future monstrosities).
• After the user makes a research infusion roll using the above bonus, they take a Mild Mental Consequence: "Touched by the Out".
  • The Mild Consequence takes a day to heal, and does not heal while the user is engaged in seal research.
  • If the user has only one instance of "Touched by the Out" and no other Mental Consequences, they may ignore the Consequence penalty on rolls.

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So something like this:

Prophet of the Beyond
XP Cost: N/A
Prereq: Etc etc, Have died at least once, etc etc Jashin something

Something about how the user has managed their relationship with the Out; Perhaps they have moved the Out to their subconscious, making it useful for non-Research acitivities without consequence in exchange for making it's research usage harder and more annoying. They can consciously draw out this understanding into their conscious mind still, but this involves great exertion, meditation, etc, and cannot be trivially repeated within short time span. Still, their subconscious having milled away at research with Out understanding means that when they do draw out this understanding, they manage unnatural leaps of knowledge, as though they had spent weeks or months on dedicated research - Because in a way, they have.

Benefits:

• User gains +TYS bonus to non-Research rolls for Sealing & Sealing-Related Disciplines.
• Once a week, the User can instead gain a 2x TYS bonus to a Research Infusion roll (and/or 'free' Timeladders down). Longer timespans between research infusions or various inspirational events* may yield a higher multiplier at the QM's discretion, potentially allowing the work of months to be compressed into hours of relevations.

*Examples might be gaining new sealing-related lore by studying seals of another sealmaster, or [stuff structured to provide incentive towards punching].

 

[Iris-Iven-Ibis]

So something like this:

Prophet of the Beyond
XP Cost: N/A
Prereq: Etc etc, Have died at least once, etc etc Jashin something

Something about how the user has managed their relationship with the Out; Perhaps they have moved the Out to their subconscious, making it useful for non-Research acitivities without consequence in exchange for making it's research usage harder and more annoying. They can consciously draw out this understanding into their conscious mind still, but this involves great exertion, meditation, etc, and cannot be trivially repeated within short time span. Still, their subconscious having milled away at research with Out understanding means that when they do draw out this understanding, they manage unnatural leaps of knowledge, as though they had spent weeks or months on dedicated research - Because in a way, they have.

Benefits:

• User gains +TYS bonus to non-Research rolls for Sealing & Sealing-Related Disciplines.
• Once a week, the User can instead gain a 2x TYS bonus to a Research Infusion roll (and/or 'free' Timeladders down). Longer timespans between research infusions or various inspirational events* may yield a higher multiplier at the QM's discretion, potentially allowing the work of months to be compressed into hours of relevations.

*Examples might be gaining new sealing-related lore by studying seals of another sealmaster, or [stuff structured to provide incentive towards punching].

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Fantastic job

 

[Orisha91]

I was thinking of putting a twist on the Jashin option. It would be sort of a compromise with those who may want as much agency under Jashin as possible.

Lets say Hazou ends up on the beach and starts to explore the Naraka path after encountering Jashin but with no strings attached. Instead of Jashin's offer to trade Jiraiya and Akane for DotB, the God chooses to relay to him that there are a variety of alternatives he can take...

Hazou discovers that he can receive lesser or greater boons from Jashin if he makes appropriate sacrifices or accepts difficult challenges/quests. The more meaningful or difficult it is to achieve something, the more useful, long-lasting, and powerful the rewards will be.

Assume that Jashin takes the opportunity to deliver the following information into Hazou's brain:

Low-level sacrifices would pertain to killing ghost ninjas, Naraka entities, minor Kami or minor Out beings in Jashin's name. There could be social conflicts dedicated to the god as well. The advantages are XP or seals that last longer on the time ladder. Dying in these situations results in losing equipment.

Navigating something with similar stakes as what occured at Bakuchioka or dedicating 50 kills would be standard mid-level sacrifices. It's gotta be something with real narrative weight that will stick with Hazou. A reward could be info on a dead ninja who crossed over with a chakra metal weapon or directions to forbidden lore from Jashin. The disadvantage could be getting XP siphoned from a random skill upon death on top of losing equipment.

Challenges or Quests would involve trials more intimately involved with Jashin's interests and provide strong incentives for Hazou. He can make self-sacrifices to permanantly give up a skill, jutsu, or stunt for the most potent changes to the quest. This is where Hazou would trade DotB in, or maybe Jashin allows him to take advantage of the powerful metaphysical weight of runes and sacrificing time runes for more time dilation in the afterlife. Risking permanant death to some soul-devouring wraith in return for directions to the other Hokage, lots of XP, forbidden lore, or short-cuts to the human path could be another avenue.

The overall point is that players and the QMs could negotiate stakes and difficulty more flexibly together. There also wouldn't be a need to stay as closely to the simulation under the conditions negotiated. My hope is that this is a fair consensus on what the middle-ground would roughly look like.

 

[eaglejarl]

These days it's mainly just rocket boots and force claws, ideally via way of a MARS chain. We don't use Macerators anymore. In a Pure Lands setting, it would just be Roki being used as paper seals wouldn't last. I suppose Hazo could wear blanks and infuse them on the go, but idk.

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Oooh!

Any idea what the Doylist reason for that happening in the dream was? Or are we not yet at the point where knowing that is okay?

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I don't recall, if I ever knew. Sorry. Ask @Velorien.

If we were to break the simulation outright though, I'd prefer to have Oro take us as an apprentice instead of killing us. I enjoy Oro as a character and even if we die and return from the afterlife, we will still have to deal with Oro whose reasons for killing us still stand. Unless we're strong enough to survive Oro after the afterlife arc, we can only hide from Oro or die

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You understand that Orochimaru is evil, right? He's Doctor Mengele with magic. Yes, he can be bargained with and gives good shinies, but he's still evil. Being his apprentice would not be a good time, it would be him making Hazō do horrific things and occasionally torturing Hazō in the interest of science.

 

[Cariyaga]

You understand that Orochimaru is evil, right? He's Doctor Mengele with magic. Yes, he can be bargained with and gives good shinies, but he's still evil. Being his apprentice would not be a good time, it would be him making Hazō do horrific things and occasionally torturing Hazō in the interest of science.

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Personally I kind of like the idea of working to redeem him, though I know that would be really hard and would itself probably require Hazou being strong enough to meaningfully oppose him and choosing not to do so combatively...

Which in saying that is supporting option 3. Huh.

 

[strange_person]

Personally I kind of like the idea of working to redeem him, though I know that would be really hard and would itself probably require Hazou being strong enough to meaningfully oppose him and choosing not to do so combatively...

Which in saying that is supporting option 3. Huh.

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I don't think talking alone would work. That's why I was proposing blackmailing him with half-truths, to think that rewiring his own brain to be more strategically compassionate is the only way to escape the wrath of some Out entity.

 

[Murska]

One way to have the Rift remain with us, and I'm not saying it should remain, could be to have both Hazou use the deadman's switch to survive the conversation and to have Tsunade nearby because she expected Orochimaru to pull something.

 

[Cariyaga]

I don't think talking alone would work. That's why I was proposing blackmailing him with half-truths, to think that rewiring his own brain to be more strategically compassionate is the only way to escape the wrath of some Out entity.

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I don't really think manipulating him into being a better person in that way would work. To change, you have to want it, and leaving the possibility for his reason for doing so to be proven wrong doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Ipsos Custodes]

There is the simple, minimal retcon, which might look like this:

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If the goal is to continue the quest then this does so in the simplest way. It is reasonable, natural, uses player-specfic ideas (prior to the retcon!), and arguably is what Hazou-pilot should have done.

That being said, if Hazou was effectively dead as soon as the bioseals were put on him, then a potentially better resolution that doesn't put us in the same immediate risk is (a) during Chapter 701 Hazou tells Tsunade about the bioseals and Tsunade is concerned (since she does not fully trust Orochimaru), does not allow Hazou to go off with Orochimaru in Chapter 702 by insisting he must return ASAP and no delays are allowed, and then gives Hazou a once-over back in Leaf, and since she has a decent level in biosealing, and Orochimaru never expected anyone to look at the seals before he activated them, she is able to easily find and deactivate them (and remove the implanted chakra coils). (Or b) Hazoupilot listens to Team Uplift and chooses to not get the bioseals chapters earlier, and we now pick a divergent plan and are not allowed to choose bioseals from Orochimaru.

 

[strange_person]

I don't really think manipulating him into being a better person in that way would work. To change, you have to want it, and leaving the possibility for his reason for doing so to be proven wrong doesn't seem right to me.

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The threat's completely real, though. Shikamaru genuinely can confirm that Hazo's been meddling with forces which are likely to cause the extinction of humanity on the described timescale, which would have no reason to spare Oro and considerable reason to actively seek him out. It's just that it's more of an "invisible hand of the market" sort of thing rather than an actual self-aware higher-dimensional being... unless you count the quest runners themselves as such, in which case it's essentially accurate all the way through.

A normal person "needs to want it" in order to change. There's reason to believe Oro cauterized his own empathy via some sort of surgical procedure, which ordinary processes of personal growth would not be sufficient to reverse. If heartfelt conversations plus ability to kick his ass were going to do the trick, why hasn't Tsunade already managed? He'll just play along while he's being watched, then go back to business as usual. To truly tear down the fortifications around his heart and change his own core values, he'd need to be gnaw-own-limb-off-to-escape-trap levels of desperate, with an omniscient enforcer closing off all other options.

 

[Cariyaga]

The threat's completely real, though. Shikamaru genuinely can confirm that Hazo's been meddling with forces which are likely to cause the extinction of humanity on the described timescale, which would have no reason to spare Oro and considerable reason to actively seek him out. It's just that it's more of an "invisible hand of the market" sort of thing rather than an actual self-aware higher-dimensional being... unless you count the quest runners themselves as such, in which case it's essentially accurate all the way through.

A normal person "needs to want it" in order to change. There's reason to believe Oro cauterized his own empathy via some sort of surgical procedure, which ordinary processes of personal growth would not be sufficient to reverse. If heartfelt conversations plus ability to kick his ass were going to do the trick, why hasn't Tsunade already managed? He'll just play along while he's being watched, then go back to business as usual. To truly tear down the fortifications around his heart and change his own core values, he'd need to be gnaw-own-limb-off-to-escape-trap levels of desperate, with an omniscient enforcer closing off all other options.

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My impression was more that he traumatized himself to the extent that he has disconnected from his empathy.

 

[Sir Stompy]

So something like this:

Prophet of the Beyond
XP Cost: N/A
Prereq: Etc etc, Have died at least once, etc etc Jashin something

Something about how the user has managed their relationship with the Out; Perhaps they have moved the Out to their subconscious, making it useful for non-Research acitivities without consequence in exchange for making it's research usage harder and more annoying. They can consciously draw out this understanding into their conscious mind still, but this involves great exertion, meditation, etc, and cannot be trivially repeated within short time span. Still, their subconscious having milled away at research with Out understanding means that when they do draw out this understanding, they manage unnatural leaps of knowledge, as though they had spent weeks or months on dedicated research - Because in a way, they have.

Benefits:

• User gains +TYS bonus to non-Research rolls for Sealing & Sealing-Related Disciplines.
• Once a week, the User can instead gain a 2x TYS bonus to a Research Infusion roll (and/or 'free' Timeladders down). Longer timespans between research infusions or various inspirational events* may yield a higher multiplier at the QM's discretion, potentially allowing the work of months to be compressed into hours of relevations.

*Examples might be gaining new sealing-related lore by studying seals of another sealmaster, or [stuff structured to provide incentive towards punching].

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So this doesn't really work as an incentive to avoid lighthousing, in fact it's an incentive to lighthouse.

Our Sealing research cycles are 9 days long (7 days prep 1 day infusion, 1 day rest), so this isn't even a speedbump, just a +12.

For PS, we'd have eff PS 78 and AB 4, so our cycles would be 6 days long, we'd need to bump them to 7, but for a +12? Easy.

Any sort of structural incentive that aims to prevent lighthousing is probably going to involve something like.

"After using DoB for weeks on end you accumulate fatigue based on QM fiat and have to do something else for a while"

Which is fine I guess? But honestly if the quest is lower stakes we won't choose to do endless research updates? I think this is just unnecessary.

 

[eaglejarl]

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped I am curious to know what Kagome was doing during this time frame, for purposes of considering rollback pathways. That is, if you were open to revealing that OOC. I understand if you want to keep it concealed.

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Kagome was sitting around offscreen in an indeterminate quantum state until the QMs had spoons to figure out what he was doing. We knew he was going to come back in the near future but we didn't have specific plans for the interim.

 

[Shard]

So this doesn't really work as an incentive to avoid lighthousing, in fact it's an incentive to lighthouse.

Our Sealing research cycles are 9 days long (7 days prep 1 day infusion, 1 day rest), so this isn't even a speedbump, just a +12.

For PS, we'd have eff PS 78 and AB 4, so our cycles would be 6 days long, we'd need to bump them to 7, but for a +12? Easy.

Any sort of structural incentive that aims to prevent lighthousing is probably going to involve something like.

"After using DoB for weeks on end you accumulate fatigue based on QM fiat and have to do something else for a while"

Which is fine I guess? But honestly if the quest is lower stakes we won't choose to do endless research updates? I think this is just unnecessary.

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Well then you probably increase the time needed from week to two weeks and/or perhaps the TYS bonus is uniquely overlapping (instead of stacking) with any preparation bonuses.

 

[faflec]

Kagome was sitting around offscreen in an indeterminate quantum state until the QMs had spoons to figure out what he was doing. We knew he was going to come back in the near future but we didn't have specific plans for the interim.

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[X] Write-in: Kagome attempted to open another rift to the afterlife by triggering another sealing failure. Saviour Syndrome, indeed.