Voting is open
[X] I want to return to Leaf once we can prevent Akatsuki from opening the Rift (other than by closing it) and shield Leaf from the retaliatory strike, regardless of Rift Runes.

[X] I want to find a way to keep tabs on how things are going in Leaf.

Also in the camp of tabs on leaf meaning update or timeline to optimize research.
 
Bonus caption from this season's anime premieres:

 
Uplift's stealth kit has great concealment from auditory and olfactory senses, in the form of Banshee Fuckers and Pangolin Pepper Bombs, but most enemies can still observe us visually

Remember this:
Sadly, Team Uplift-Plus-One had always focused more on overwhelming firepower than on sneakiness. Haru and Akane stepped on dry twigs, Noburi cursed as a thornbush caught his hand and siphoned out a drop of blood, and Hazō was focused so intently on the ground at his feet that he smacked forehead-protector-first into a low-hanging branch. The branch shook noisily, sending a rain of pine cones to the forest floor and startling several birds and a squirrel into noisy retreat.

Itachi sighed. "How have you lot survived this long?"

"[wordlessly annoyed grunt]"

"Roguish charm?"

"The power of Youth?"

"Massive explosions?"
 
Last edited:
If the rift area can be rendered impassible for a sufficient amount of time, Pure Lands XP drain should render Nagato a non threat eventually, right?
 
Does anyone recall when we're up for another round of ACE purchases? Time Runes should accelerate this, right?
 
Does anyone recall when we're up for another round of ACE purchases? Time Runes should accelerate this, right?
Hazou has like 4 months to go or something in subjective time. Kei a little more since she wasn't in the time runes for 3 months since she was doing uhhh stuff on the 7th Path and everyone else is the same time as Kei
 
First, basically all of this is contingent on the assumption that Naruto failed a bunch of critical social rolls.
Not really. Itachi got reality rubbed in his face here. He doesn't need Naruto to say anything. He can think for himself. Even if Naruto completes all his rolls, Itachi can just run a drop dead easy investigation.

Itachi: Hmm... Seems Naruto's lying to me, or something seems off. Let's go check on the only other 2 S rankers in Leaf to see what they've been up to and ordered to do. Oh. Oro's been researching the rift? Tsundade tells us Naruto told her that Leaf's plan is to pulverize Akasuki and not listen to Akasuki's contract? *whomp whomp*


Especially with a flimsy excuse like "They were researching- actually no nevermind, Leaf broke a deal.".


Flimsy? It was a deal between two major super powers, signed off by the entirety of the Leaf clan heads, and blessed by the Kage of Leaf. It would be like if Iran decided to start building nuclear weapons a month after agreeing to an armistice. Iran would be swiftly bombed to the stone age.


I don't understand. The deal was literally, don't invent the one thing that can stop us. We broke it immediately. And then broke other parts of the deal. Brazenly. I think "a country suddenly trying to build a nuclear weapons after signing a treaty not to" metaphor here is very apt.

Also, Akasuki has a reputation to uphold. They need to know when they say something, someone doesn't take it as just a "suggestion" and actually complies.
Unless they had incontrovertible proof that Naruto ordered Hazou to do dimensionalism research I don't think they would turn Leaf into a crater.
There are only three S rankers in Leaf. It's not hard to track down what's being done in Leaf. If Itachi looks, he would find incontrovertible proof Oro's doing rift research. And how did that so called "incontrovertible proof" metric hold up last time we negotiated with Akasuki? Oh. Right. Yeah.



Probably including some members of Akatsuki! Why would Itachi try to dig deep into every black-ops program aimed in his general direction? He knows they exist, he knows there are plausible excuses lined up for each and every one, and he knows that if he stops taking those excuses at face value then he'll have to bomb half of the EN back to the stone age.
Difference is Akasuki literally made a deal with Leaf to stop this one thing. It's not just "oh Ninja" It's, here is a written contract with your signature on it, that you've failed to uphold, with the understanding of extreme consequences if it wasn't upheld.

And you're telling me that nothing will happen if Leaf breaks the contract.

Which is, uh, a position to hold?

But it wouldn't be my first guess. Or my hundredth.


Puppet state is impossible. Leaf would dissolve first.
Not really. Leaf's already been basically a puppet state since the last deal. It would just become official.
Fourth, and finally, the meta. The vibes. It's a bit of a dirty info source, but it is. The QMs leak little bits of information, and my impression from what I've seen is not that Leaf is a bombed out husk.

Vibes are fine. I've been picking up on the same vibes as well. But Akasuki made a deal with Leaf. Leaf broke the deal. Akasuki promised fiery retribution. And Akasuki has a reputation to uphold. People seem to have the implicit understanding that everyone in Leaf getting off scot free with no consequences. Which is *fine* to think. But just say that in words. Leaf is gonna be fine because *vibes* and *it would make the game less fun.* Which isn't really what a "deathworld stimulationist quest" says on the tin, but it's definitely a position you can hold.


I dunno man. Seems at the very least we should expect Akasuki to take a decent chunk of flesh from Leaf for crossing them so brazenly. I think it's just be a question of degree.

Or you can bet on the QM's giving us a free pass, because, uh, reasons?

But just say that's the assumption you're planning under.



And on the meta point, narratively, our homeland being razed to the ground and our extended family being hurt because of our blunders, both raises the stakes, makes it feel real, gives us increased motivation, makes our world feel like a death world, and greatly increase the elation and celebration if/when we beat Akasuki.
 
Last edited:
Hazou has like 4 months to go or something in subjective time. Kei a little more since she wasn't in the time runes for 3 months since she was doing uhhh stuff on the 7th Path and everyone else is the same time as Kei
Isn't Noburi's day different, though? I vaguely remember him beginning before we did...
 
Alright, so I got a little bored, and made a possible Tweak for Earthshaping jutsu. It's a complex ninjutsu, with a lot of moving parts, but hopefully we can strip out a lot of the needless functionality in order to keep the bare essentials of what we want it to do.

Here's my Proposal: Earth Mother's Tantrum

The user casts a complicated series of handseals, and slams their hands into the ground, saturating the ground of the entire Zone with their chakra. Throughout the zone, the ninjutsu swiftly and chaotically reshapes the topsoil of the infused Zone, invoking a (2*ES AB) penalty to Athletics on those who cannot succeed on their roll. The infusion of the caster's chakra into the Zone's earth means that chakra adhesion isn't possible for any ninja but for the original caster, so enemy cannot attempt to bypass the ninjutsu with chakra adhesion.

Friendly fire possible. Maybe enough experience training under the effects of this ninjutsu can result in a purchasable Stunt that reduces or eliminates the penalty?

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 to AB+10, 30, 60, 100, 150, 210...
Duration30 seconds+30
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (personal)
Casting SpeedStandard + Supplemental-10*
AOEEntire Zone+40
AdvantageMajor penalty to important skill (Athletics)+30
DisadvantageElemental Requirement-20
AdvantageSaturate ground with chakra, as with an object+15*
DisadvantageIncrease chakra cost for moving earth with chakra, not hands+25*
DisadvantageIncrease chakra cost to quicken the process into combat's bullet-time+20*
Total Strain140, 160, 190, 230, 280, 340
Casting Cost28, 32, 38, 46, 56, 68…

  • Restricts AOE down to the same Zone of the caster
  • Cuts out the "permanent effect" buff
  • Keeps elemental requirement
  • Keeps "metal" ban
    • Only reshapes what qualifies as "earth." Metal floors are immune to this ninjutsu
  • Set the casting speed to "Standard + Supplemental" and then Increase the chakra cost by (+15 strain) to quickly "dump" your chakra into the ground, saturating it for the effects of the ninjutsu.
    • This replaces the "The first several minutes of the process consist of simply saturating the material with your chakra" requirement from ES. Still takes a while, in combat's bullet-time, and the increased cost reflects the loss of finesse.
  • ES is a ninjutsu with a much longer duration, and we don't need that. So we strip out the longer duration ("concentration") and replace it with ("30 seconds"). This also means that Hazou is no longer actively concentrating on/maintaining the ninjutsu.
  • Close off the "breaks painfully" since Hazou won't have to concentrate on the jutsu to keep it active.
  • Increases chakra cost by (+25 strain) since you're moving the earth with a ninjutsu, and not with hands. This is meant to replace ES's 25% increase in required time from doing the same.
  • Add a (+20 strain) chakra cost to increase the speed of the jutsu's "process."

Much of what I'm proposing is pure conjecture on my part. ES is a slow, manual ninjutsu that needs to be sped up and automated for combat, and I figure that the easiest way to bypass that is to... toss chakra at it.

The strain additions/subtractions that I've speculated, on my own, are noted by the asterisk by their number. I tried to base the theorizing off of examples of ninjutsu that we already have, but maybe my guesses are off from what a QM would rule. Maybe they would fold some of the costs into each other? Or, maybe TH 40 will be enough that we can strip those segments away, without incurring such a drastic increase in the efficiency of the ninjutsu?

Anyway, this ninjutsu proposal likely isn't all that great, but I figure it'll at least get the ball rolling.
 
Last edited:
There are only three S rankers in Leaf. It's not hard to track down what's being done in Leaf. If Itachi looks, he would find incontrovertible proof Oro's doing rift research. And how did that so called "incontrovertible proof" metric hold up last time we negotiated with Akasuki? Oh. Right. Yeah.
Is Itachi magically supposed to understand what runes do with no frame of reference? Lol

Him poking around Oro's research lab is a good way for him to get killed. Boy I sure hope he does it.
Not really. Leaf's already been basically a puppet state since the last deal. It would just become official.
[Citation needed]

You're making some very assertive claims with zero evidence. This discussion doesn't seem particularly fruitful to continue.

Cheers.
 
There are only three S rankers in Leaf. It's not hard to track down what's being done in Leaf. If Itachi looks, he would find incontrovertible proof Oro's doing rift research. And how did that so called "incontrovertible proof" metric hold up last time we negotiated with Akasuki? Oh. Right. Yeah.
I think this is a key flaw in your argument. Oro's research has been happening (presumably) either in his Basement, or at the bladehorror rift scar in Iron. IMO, there is absolutely no way Itachi is going to walk into Orochimaru's maximally prepared ground, even as a shadow clone and even with the threat of retaliation from the rest of Akatsuki if he's hurt, in order to check whether or not he's doing rift research; and Oro's Deceit is probably good enough to beat whatever social stat Itachi uses. Even if he does, Oro is aware that Akatsuki may take an interest in his work and has had months to think about how to stop them learning about PS when they do; it would astonish me if he wasn't capable of hiding that research from Itachi's senses.

As for the rift in Iron, it's certainly less secure, but I think your assumption that it's easy to follow what Oro is or is not doing is off. Itachi might be able to discover if Oro has been absent for long time periods, but as far as we know Oro doesn't really talk to anyone most of the time, so as long as he's reasonably stealthy when he leaves him spending a week doing a research roll in Iron might not be distinguishable from him just not coming out of his basement for a week. And again, I trust Orochimaru to have thought about this problem and have some way of covering his tracks in Iron, at least against effects he knows Itachi can bring to bear.

Also:
Tsundade tells us Naruto told her that Leaf's plan is to pulverize Akasuki and not listen to Akasuki's contract?
Why would Tsunade tell Itachi this? She might fail a Deceit roll, I guess, but her Deceit is probably at least decent and Itachi isn't a social spec.
 
Let's not forget that one of the first things we bumped into in the basement was some kind of auditory effect only Hazou (who has Uchiha blood) noticed...

There's absolutely no way the Basement is not trapped to high hell against the Sharingan (and more specifically, Itachi). Bro is gonna get a memetic brainworm that eats his soul or some shit.
 
Is Itachi magically supposed to understand what runes do with no frame of reference? Lol

Him poking around Oro's research lab is a good way for him to get killed. Boy I sure hope he does it.
*Looks sideways* Uh. You understand that Itachi can call on Akasuki for help? It's not just him right?



Sure:
"There is no bargaining happening, Lady Hokage," Itachi said. "Recall that if we are unable to reach an agreement, I walk away and Leaf is destroyed. Nor is the sum that unreasonable when you consider that Kakuzu was an immortal–ageless as well as virtually unkillable and invulnerable–and thus all of his financial value to Akatsuki is multiplied by the fact that it would have been contributed every year in perpetuity."
"Then he can fuck right off!" Lady Inuzuka exploded, followed shortly by clamour from Lord Hagoromo and several others. The air grew dangerous.
The most precious thing Leaf owned, more valuable even than the lives of its ninja, which were regularly spent to defend it.
Are you ordering me to give Akatsuki my dad's life's work?" Naruto demanded incredulously.

"This isn't giving," Tsunade said grimly. "It's robbery at kunai-point. If I can sign away the land my grandfather spent his life gathering under Leaf's banner, then you can damn well do your part. How many seals do you even use?"

Maybe not a puppet state, but certainly a vassal state or satellite state.

Why would Tsunade tell Itachi this? She might fail a Deceit roll, I guess, but her Deceit is probably at least decent and Itachi isn't a social spec.
Guys. You're thinking too small here. Itachi has just had a very obvious breach of contract here. Against Akasuki. A major family of Leaf, half their summoners, and enough firepower to level a city just went missing, in direct response to Itachi checking up on dimensionalism. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw the cause and effect arrow here. If Hazo's family was gonna go missing for another reason that didn't relate to dimensionalism, they wouldn't have left literally immediately after Itachi arrived asking about it. It's not that hard to draw (the correct) conclusion here. We didn't exactly hide our intentions here. It's not a question of what Itachi's is or isn't gonna do. Or whether or not he's gonna go into Oro's basement. Or whether or not he's gonna read Tsundade's deceit (which he can maybe all do) It's a question of what Akasuki is gonna do in response to Leaf breaking it's agreement or being perceived as doing so. Even if ackshually, technically, in the court of law, it can't be proven, Naruto is actually, for real, breaking the deal! Akasuki would be correct to act! With outside information given to us, and inside information they're operating under!

And this is bad, because, not only is Naruto breaking the agreement with Hazo, he's colluded with Oro, with Tsundade, with other ninja as well, etc. It's not a one off thing. It's not that hard to find out what Naruto's been up to. And really, Akasuki doesn't even need a smoking gun as it's so obvious what happened here. Only a five year old would be deceived. And they're freaking Ninja. Oh, what a coincidence, the family that can research dimensionalism coincidentally left the moment I showed up asking about it. How strange. I bet they're not doing anything related to dimensionalism. Hum dum.


And this, but, *Naruto's totally innocent, how could he know Hazo's gonna do this, and is no way responsible for the Goketsu stick* is not only wrong (Naruto's not, neither narratively or in reality, Naruto is actually breaking the agreement) we've been shown multiple times that responsibility for when underlings break contracts is, you guessed it, blamed on the head of the clan, or the Kage. Even if the clan head/Kage had nothing to do with it or no knowledge. This is true in all thing. Captains are legally responsible for the sinking of their ship and get full responsibility. Even if someone under them is to blame. All responsibility is on the leader. During a failure, you fire the leader, arrest the leader, etc., even if they didn't know about the fuckup, as a message to the next guy in line. Why would Akasuki act any different?
 
Last edited:
Orochimaru's Basement is, like, the quintessential example of a sealmaster's prepared ground. I wouldn't go near that thing if you paid me to.

I lie, I am easily susceptible to bribery via literature. Don't tell the Nara.
 
"You sent him on a research mission?" Itachi asked.

"He asked for one himself."

"Where is Gōketsu Hazō located?"

"In the southern isles," Naruto said. "He said he fancied a beach trip on one of the little islands off the coast of Tea. His mission papers have his exact location, but of course we won't provide these things to a foreign ninja that may well wish him harm."

"This is relevant to the agreement," Itachi said. "Do you believe Gōketsu Hazō is researching dimensionalism?"

Naruto shook his head. "No. He said he wanted to do weapons research. I dunno if that's true, maybe he wanted an excuse to get out from under the paperwork and lie on the beach for a while. Whatever, he said it was clan secrets so I didn't ask too many questions."

"'Clan secrets' does not suffice," Itachi said. "Is he researching the rift?"

Naruto shook his head, making sure that his gaze never crossed into eye-contact with Itachi. "I gave him strict orders not to work on anything rift-related."

"Hm. You're in contact with him via the Seventh Path?"

"Minimally," Naruto said. "He's busy, and doesn't take many of my messages."

"I see. You will require his immediate return so that I may confirm that he has produced no new work on dimensionalism."
So, as much as I do think this was a big failure on Naruto's part, not being able to give Itachi the runaround for even a single visit, reading over the scene again he does seem to slip the most crucial parts past Itachi. Itachi doesn't challenge the idea that Naruto ordered Hazou to not research the rift or that Naruto doesn't think Hazou is doing rift research.

(This was, of course, actually true at the time. We were just doing weapons research, and were holding to the dimensionalism ban.)

I think it's a big leap to say that Itachi believes Naruto broke their agreement. Of course, Hazou refusing to return, and exfiltrating his team, does cast more suspicion onto Leaf, but Naruto's stated next action here is to go full-throttle on the missing-nin hunt, committing as many resources as Leaf can spare to hunt down their new Public Enemy #1. It's not a maximally convincing signal, sure, but if the suspicion on him is only circumstantial, indirect, then it may suffice for Naruto's needs.

(The fact that a cooperative Leaf committing lots of forces does increase the odds of capturing Hazou probably weighs on the equation too)

It can indeed still fail, if Itachi's response to this situation is to get suspicious enough to properly interrogate Naruto, in which case things get really dicey, but I don't think it's by any means a sure thing. Naruto's done a good job of signalling grudging-yet-authentic compliance, as one might expect of someone in his position, and if anyone knows anything about Hazou it's that he doesn't play well with authority and would legitimately betray his village before he betrays his ideals. The scenario as presented to Itachi is more plausible than it might sound at first glance, I'd say, and Naruto is actively offering his full cooperation at this point.

It could still be that Leaf is a smoking crater right now, or has otherwise been "punished" by the Akatsuki for dealbreaking, but I think it's more likely than not still standing, Naruto's signals authentic and costly enough to convince Itachi that Hazou most likely schemed this all on his own.
 
The scenario as presented to Itachi is more plausible than it might sound at first glance, I'd say, and Naruto is actively offering his full cooperation at this point.
Especially since, as we know, Naruto sent Leaf's Hunter Nin to Neck, Iron, and then to Snow (or whatever order he said). So, from Itachi's point of view, Naruto is fully cooperating by sending Hunter Nin to our... "known haunts," as it were.

This genuine action likely also weighs in Lwaf's favor.
 
I think it's a big leap to say that Itachi believes Naruto broke their agreement
But...like Leaf did though? Leaf made an agreement they wouldn't research dimensionalism. It might be all well and good that Naruto helps cooperate and blah, blah, blah. But fundamentally, Leaf broke the agreement, Naruto's in charge, Akasuki needs to follow through on their commitments, and heads need to roll. If a rogue officer orders a nuke to be fired at Russia, the president can't just shrug his shoulders and say, "Well, I didn't nuke you guys, meaning it doesn't count and you can't really blame me or nuke us back" No. The United States of America just nuked a foreign country. It's an act of war. Expect Russia to fire back. Same thing. Leaf broke the agreement. Doesn't matter if Naruto's not personally responsible or involved. He's the Kage. Therefore he's responsible for agreements Leaf made. This is even true, even if he personally didn't make them. The president is responsible for upholding NATO, even if he didn't sign the agreement and it was his predecessor. Naruto and Leaf are separate things. Agreements made between countries and individuals are different. Naruto is a head of state.

And it doesn't help that Naruto is personally responsible and involved here.

This genuine action likely also weighs in Lwaf's favor.
But that's not genuine? Do you guys not know what genuine means? Naruto is trying to deceive Itachi and cover up his actions. That is the opposite of genuine. Itachi would be right to say Naruto broke the agreement. Because he actually motherf*cking did!


The question is can Naruto deceive the entirety of Akasuki after blatantly breaking the agreement, to their face, on flimsy premises of trying (and failing) to hunt down Hazo. I think not? Literally in the letter, Naruto said he would lead them on a goose chase!


This isn't 4D chess here. The obvious conclusion, Hazo's researching dimensionalism, is true. This isn't some crazy sherlock holmes 6 sigma plot where the clues lead to the wrong plan and we all get fooled. Both the evidence and the conclusion lead to the correct answer here. Itachi would have to be off his rocker to come up with a different conclusion.
 
Last edited:
But...like Leaf did though? Leaf made an agreement they wouldn't research dimensionalism. It might be all well and good that Naruto helps cooperate and blah, blah, blah. But fundamentally, Leaf broke the agreement, Naruto's in charge, Akasuki needs to follow through on their commitments, and heads need to roll.
I think we need to disentangle the two scenarios you seem to be talking about. In Scenario A, Itachi becomes suspicious that Naruto lied to him and intentionally broke the deal, interrogates him, and decides Leaf is guilty and needs to burn. I think it's somewhat unlikely we're in Scenario A, because I think it's somewhat unlikely that Itachi would become suspicious of Naruto in that regard and to that degree.

In Scenario B, Itachi decides that Naruto was earnestly and honestly attempting to follow Itachi's orders, and even now is doing everything in its power to continue to comply, but because Hazou unilaterally betrayed Leaf and disobeyed the agreement Itachi declares Leaf guilty and burns it.

I also do not think we are in Scenario B, because I do not think anyone involved will trace guilt like that. I do not think that Itachi will, in his own mind, call Naruto guilty for doing everything in his power to restrain Hazou and yet coming up short. I do not think Itachi will particularly care about "losing face" or other reputational shenanigans, since these are private meetings behind closed doors. I don't think anyone outside of Leaf even knows about the dimensionalism ban, let alone that the current situation could be considered a breach of that ban! Itachi has made it abundantly clear to Naruto that he calls the shots, and Naruto so far has 100% gone along with that. I don't think Itachi will think Naruto breached the agreement, I don't think Itachi will feel obligated to destroy Leaf because other people might think this situation constitutes a breach of the agreement, I overall don't think Itachi is at all likely to destroy Leaf if he believes Naruto was and is genuinely cooperating.

Please, in the future, be more clear about what scenarios you're talking about and calling likely. I'm seeing some weird mixed streams here where it doesn't matter if Itachi thinks Naruto is innocent because he'll burn Leaf anyways, but also he'll clearly know that Naruto is guilty and burn Leaf for that reason. I don't find this style of argumentation very compelling and would be much easier to persuade if you discuss things in a more point-by-point fashion where I can assess each claim independent of the others. If you find that my breakdown in this post does not match what you're trying to say, it's probably because I had to take on the effort of separating your claim into individual points and I can't be sure I did that correctly.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top