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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
I think:

  • If he can safely learn it then sure fine.
    • He needs to answer that question somehow. If the answer is too uncertain, well, its not Hazou he needs to convince, its the whole team. At the end of the day, if there's any risk, we're fine with siding with what he wants to do.
      • If its at all risky then Yuno would absolutely murder us if anything happened to you and we didn't run this by the team, no way around that lol.
  • Point out that he's actually stronger than Hazou or Kei at the moment.
  • Hazou is theresearch spec.
    • We already have the ability to twist space and time into a pretzel. Noburi might not know that we can literally make more time per time for him to learn and grow and train with. Let him know that lol.
    • Also after the latest apocalypse settles down... we're absolutely fine with devoting massive piles of research time into stuff that he wants specifically? Either on the TH side, or on the Seals/Runes side of things.
    • Basically when we're done with this nightmare of a mission, he can have top billing on Hazou's spare research time. The N-fold Hazou research squad only exists because of his help after all lol.
I admit to being a bit confused but like whatever right lol. Just tell the guy we're absolutely fine with saucing him up to the gills with hax of whatever flavor he wants (combat, research, or otherwise). It's already true, so lol
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Sir Stompy said:
Point out that even without SC he's still keeping up with Hazou and Kei. He's stronger than either head-to-head and a jounin-level medic to boot.
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We'd love for him to have Shadow Clone Just (if he thinks it's safe), but we should point out that the FOOM training method isn't actually a great path for him right now.
Kei and Hazou have the direct benifits of training SC and Resolve, but their other skills are still lagging behind where they're be if they just trained normally.(hazo and kei are worse at combat than Noburi, despite his dual-specing as a medic first and a fighter second)
FOOM takes a long time to to pay off, and we don't have 4 years. Encourage him to train normally or research sage mode instead. Actually, just follow the toad sage training, with SC 20ish thrown in on the side.

redzonejoe said:
1.1- Tsunade is 'the medic', Oro is the mad scientist. Noburi is 'the medic', Hazo is the mad scientist. Oro knows mednin stuff but nobody would ever think of him over Tsunade in that field.
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"Don't worry! I'm not emulating Tsunade, I'm emulating Orochimaru!
... What do you mean that's not reassuring?"
 
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Sir Stompy said:
I don't really endorese this count. If we went straight back to researching we'd still need to travel to the next location. I imagine it would take 5ish days to do that. Since people were talking about going off the edge of the map. That would put this at roughly 6 days more research than the alternatives. So 1 cycle.
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Debatable - I was assuming that if it was sensible to go off the map before, it would probably still be sensible to do it now, so we'd be doing it after this anyway and would still have to spend the time here. (In fact, I might well argue for that, once we're done with the cave, though possibly not immediately.) Have edited my post to clarify your position, though (and also updated my estimate, since it's slightly less than two cycles even if you assume two days for travel).
 
boo600 said:
3: Obviously, plan Voremore involves having Noburi get shadow clones - shadow clones who, like Snowflake, lack his bloodline. If he can figure out a way to safely summon them and distribute Chakra to them, what kind of chakra capacity would they have? Something low, most likely, given his inability to develop a chakra pool normally? And they'd lack one of his primary combat options.
Obviously, we're still giving it to him. But the question of 'what to train' advice comes in. Taijutsu mostly helps with skill, not physical conditioning - this isn't The Waves Arisen.
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Agreed on all this; SC honestly seems like a pretty bad investment for Noburi compared for going all in on Sage Mode. His combat and his utility is really oriented around his bloodline. SC probably helps him research faster in the long term but does that pay off fast enough in the short term to be worthwhile?

We'll give it to him either way of course.
 
Due to a conversation about Tsunade's build on discord, I've been reminded of my spreadsheet-based attempt to estimate how much XP other ninja might have. There are things it doesn't take into account, but perhaps you will find it useful anyway.

Also, I bet Tsunade unstagnates a lot more than most ninja can - if you do limit-of-your-abilities combat (or sealing or technique hacking) too often, you'll eventually die to a bad roll, whereas with mednin the patient dies but the medic only risks TYS

DanZapman said:
WoG is Itachi is not a 10 XP boy but the main point stands.
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Not 10, but quite plausibly ~9.
 
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Left-Hand Mutant said:
We'd love for him to have Shadow Clone Just (if he thinks it's safe), but we should point out that the FOOM training method isn't actually a great path for him right now.
Kei and Hazou have the direct benifits of training SC and Resolve, but their other skills are still lagging behind where they're be if they just trained normally.(hazo and kei are worse at combat than Noburi, despite his dual-specing as a medic first and a fighter second)
FOOM takes a long time to to pay off, and we don't have 4 years. Encourage him to train normally or research sage mode instead. Actually, just follow the toad sage training, with SC 20ish thrown in on the side
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I think we have plenty of time to discourage him from pursuing FOOM Resolve after we get mechanics for his SCs.

If they're incapable of refilling to 80CP than it's a moot point and I don't want to discourage him unnecessarily. Even so, I think him pushing to Resolve ~49 (whatever the relevant FOOM step is) is a good choice. Resolve 40 gets him the extra stress box and most Jounin keep it approximately there, and it's enough for like a 1.5x modifier. That's plenty, and not much of an XP investment.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

This was originally written by @ProperAttorney on Discord, I am reposting it here to ask if it's allowed under the FtD mechanics.

Wind Wall is currently written to be infinitely stacking as long as there are multiple copies of the jutsu.


Assuming Kei has leveled Wind Wall to 10, and purchased the relevant combination stunts.

Kei, Snowflake, Crystal, Winterlight, Scalpel, Prism, Constellation, Spiral, Moonlight, Soar, Kitten, Whisper, Prayer, and Kiss are in the same zone.

Crystal spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action) and activating a CATEARS for everyone's RBs.
Winterlight spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Scalpel spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Prism spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Constellation spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Spiral spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Moonlight spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Soar spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Kitten spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Whisper spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Prayer spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).
Kiss spends Turn One casting Wind Wall in their zone (Standard Action).

Crystal, Winterlight, Scalpel, Prism, Constellation, Spiral, Moonlight, Soar, Kitten, Whisper, Prayer, and Kiss pass one tag each to Snowflake and to Kei.

Snowflake spends Turn One casting Cloak of the Wind God + draw RW (Supplemental), and attacking with RW (Standard).
Kei spends Turn One casting Cloak of the Wind God + draw RW (Supplemental), activating Combat Frozen Skein (Supplemental) and attacking with RW (Standard).

Snowflake rolls `49 (RW) + 7 (Boost + ACE1) + 4dF + 60 (12 x 1AB Wind Wall) = 116 + 4dF` with WR 2 and range 3.
Kei rolls `49 (RW) + 7 (Boost + ACE1) + 4dF + 60 (12 x 1AB Wind Wall) + 17 (CFS Target 34) - 9 (Apathy Target 34) = 124 + 4dF` with WR 2 and range 3.

Snowflake and Kei do not get any numerical benefit from CotWG, only weapon rating and range (and there is an argument to be made for using explosive seals instead).

If the ladies survive round one, they can cast Wind Wall again and double the bonus to +120.
 
Left-Hand Mutant said:
"Don't worry! I'm not emulating Tsunade, I'm emulating Orochimaru!
... What do you mean that's not reassuring?"
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I have to give you an insightful for the earlier part of your quote - it's mandated.

Consider this quote to be me giving you a 'funny' as well, please. You've certainly earned both.



ting said:
Agreed on all this; SC honestly seems like a pretty bad investment for Noburi compared for going all in on Sage Mode. His combat and his utility is really oriented around his bloodline. SC probably helps him research faster in the long term but does that pay off fast enough in the short term to be worthwhile?

We'll give it to him either way of course.
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I mean, beyond just giving it to him, I still really want to discuss what that difference means. There are things we can't account for - how he gets around the limitations matters (water balloon artificial chakra skeleton? Modifying shadow clone somehow?) because it changes the equation. But we could learn something useful from a failure, even - and success could give Noburi a perspective even Tsunade doesn't.

Remember Coil, from Worm? His power was ultimately a simulation, and the costs are absurd - but when you ignore the shard stuff, and focus on what he could do… he could revolutionize empiricism. Control groups made up of the same exact samples as the testing group. He could run experiments in one reality, and leave the subjects unaffected in the 'kept' timeline, copying the info over by hand into reality.

Obviously, he didn't, because he had other focuses. But Noburi?

Noburi could do that - examine subjects with the same mind, but two different perspectives, merged together. In terms of depth and breadth, there's a huge field of insight just waiting to empower his medical skills.

If his bloodline-sensing is sufficiently different, and if his clones can use more normal methodologies. And if he can make them.

It's worth discussing - after confirming we'll happily help him get Shadow Clone - just what he expects to gain, and just what he might gain, even if we're wildly off the mark. As long as we ask questions, and remember the planning fallacy, this could be great.

If Noburi wants to master medical skills, or become a combat monster… that's worth discussing.

Ugh. I didn't post this? Sorry for the delay.
 
boo600 said:
1: Giving the team more time to train via runes seems like something we should have already been doing. Are the timespeeders short-ranged enough that our research is likely to kill them if we use the same ones, thus making it so that teamspeeding detracts from rune research
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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. We should probably set up a TR, that's for after we finish clearing the cave IMO. We weren't sure if we were going to attract golems so we didn't set one up already. We'll do more chkara science and set one up after we clear the cave.
boo600 said:
2: We don't seem to have unstagnated, having fought animals and now run through a cavern throwing explosives (although we did get GM fun exp, which was nice). Do we need to fight ninja to unstagnate? If so, unstagnation may be impossible without revealing our location, barring combat on the seventh path
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We haven't finished the mission (clearing the cave) we can likely expect an unstagnation after that (or I will riot).
boo600 said:
2b- would Kei and Hazō faking some kind of epic duel to the death, for the sake of the Pangolin conflict, count for unstagnation? It's a bad idea for political reasons - too many things could go wrong - but if combat unstagnation comes from doing new or unique things to deal with clever opponents and novel problems, it could be that sparring with heavy non-survival (or at least direct survival) stakes could help. Have we ever tested that
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It is likely not high-enough stakes. The default "high-stakes" is risking death. If we risked losing a bunch of face with the Dogs we might be able to do this, but if we're fighting Kei then if Hazou wins she loses and there must be stakes for it to count. So this is a low-percentage move IMO.
boo600 said:
3: Obviously, plan Voremore involves having Noburi get shadow clones - shadow clones who, like Snowflake, lack his bloodline. If he can figure out a way to safely summon them and distribute Chakra to them, what kind of chakra capacity would they have? Something low, most likely, given his inability to develop a chakra pool normally? And they'd lack one of his primary combat options.
Obviously, we're still giving it to him. But the question of 'what to train' advice comes in. Taijutsu mostly helps with skill, not physical conditioning - this isn't The Waves Arisen. Ninjutsu and Medical jutsu… their chakra senses may be completely different to Noburi's. Is this something that would prove counterproductive to jutsu skill, or could it provide a unique perspective for him on the nature of chakra, bolstering his ideas and capabilities? We should check with Snowflame Snowflake and Kei on this, even if she doesn't have chakra-perception alteration. Noburi's clones should have the same mind as him, just differing chakra senses.
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We hope his clones will have normal ninja reserves and suspect they'll have civilian reserves. If it's the latter, he won't be able to FOOM but he could still read notes do medknow etc with his clones.
boo600 said:
4: We really should see if the chakravores and Noburi can help us invent some kind of chakra sight. The charkascopes are good, but I want All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight quite badly. I admit it's a longshot and probably going to be put on the back burner, and we aren't going to take a living chakravores for now, and probably years… but damn it, we have a Grue that took away one of the Academy Three. After years or decades of it existing! We should be able to get something useful before it yoinks it, if it's connected to an immobile rune. A lab of chakra-analysis. It could revolutionize the industry!
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Getting a bonus to VD from the 'vores seems possible, but chakra sight? Not happening IMO. That's the realm of shit like the Sharingan and Byukugan. Far beyond our means. Some Oro tier shit.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. We should probably set up a TR, that's for after we finish clearing the cave IMO. We weren't sure if we were going to attract golems so we didn't set one up already. We'll do more chkara science and set one up after we clear the cave.
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Basically, does giving access to TRs to the team noticeable slow research? It's a question of space, partially - if we risk catching them in a sealing/runecrafting failure if we don't give them seperate TRs, and if we do, how much does that slow us down? (Time crafting the TR, time spent on the extra substrate required, etc).

Sir Stompy said:
We haven't finished the mission (clearing the cave) we can likely expect an unstagnation after that (or I will riot).
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They noted that we specifically hadn't after the chakravores fight, and the burrower+'Vore fight was us spamming explosives. Nothing clever-new, specifically dangerous, or otherwise 'unusual in the sense of opposing stagnation' there, unless having to protect Yuno and Tenten counts.

Sir Stompy said:
We hope his clones will have normal ninja reserves and suspect they'll have civilian reserves. If it's the latter, he won't be able to FOOM but he could still read notes do medknow etc with his clones.
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I'm still hoping he'll figure out something from medical examination techniques when using them with more 'traditional' techniques than he's been using, but yeah. Unless we come up with something ludicrous, his clones are unlikely to be combat-useful… unless he can use them as some sort of relay for the mist-drain? They won't have his Bloodline, but they'll be made of his chakra - and if they have very little, he could spam them. They could conceivably work as relay points for a mass (in terms of armies) drain or something ludicrous, someday.

Obviously I don't expect anything, but I'm trying to pull crazy ideas out of my hat to support Medibro, so. Particularly since it seems unlikely he'll find SC as useful as we do.
 
boo600 said:
Obviously I don't expect anything, but I'm trying to pull crazy ideas out of my hat to support Medibro, so. Particularly since it seems unlikely he'll find SC as useful as we do.
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I want to see if there are Sage Mode interactions which might benefit extremely-low-CR clones. Jiraiya didn't deploy Sage Mode SCs at Nagi which implies they weren't useful to him, but it seems plausible to me that there could be utility there for Noburi.

Do we have a current state of play on any of that? I imagine the plans/timelines got blown up by gestures at the circumstances. I'm honestly half expecting Ma and Pa to seriously drag Jiraiya on his mastery of Sage Mode and I'm looking forward to Hazo flexing on him as the better sealmaster and Noburi flexing on him as the better Sage even he's back.
 
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boo600 said:
Basically, does giving access to TRs to the team noticeable slow research? It's a question of space, partially - if we risk catching them in a sealing/runecrafting failure if we don't give them seperate TRs, and if we do, how much does that slow us down? (Time crafting the TR, time spent on the extra substrate required, etc).
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Nope, it speeds it up, but as long as Hazou is fighting, no one is researching anything anyway. There is a small cost in substrate and chakra to set up a TR, but it shouldn't even be noticeable to the players.
boo600 said:
They noted that we specifically hadn't after the chakravores fight, and the burrower+'Vore fight was us spamming explosives. Nothing clever-new, specifically dangerous, or otherwise 'unusual in the sense of opposing stagnation' there, unless having to protect Yuno and Tenten counts
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We still haven't cleared the cave, 30% left to go.
boo600 said:
Relay for the mist-drain? They won't have his Bloodline, but they'll be made of his chakra - and if they have very little, he could spam them. They could conceivably work as relay points for a mass (in terms of armies) drain or something ludicrous, someday
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No reason to think this will work, plenty of reasons to think it won't.
 
boo600 said:
Basically, does giving access to TRs to the team noticeable slow research? It's a question of space, partially - if we risk catching them in a sealing/runecrafting failure if we don't give them seperate TRs, and if we do, how much does that slow us down? (Time crafting the TR, time spent on the extra substrate required, etc).
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Sir Stompy said:
Nope, it speeds it up, but as long as Hazou is fighting, no one is researching anything anyway. There is a small cost in substrate and chakra to set up a TR, but it shouldn't even be noticeable to the players.
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Also worth noting the separate TRs thing is I think unnecessary anyway, since IIRC Kagome insists that Hazō doesn't do infusions inside a TR; he would only be doing prep days there, so no more risk of catching the others in failures than there would be with separate TRs.
 
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Maybe we can discover mechanisms behind the chakravores' chakra sensory abilities, and splice it onto Chakdar to raise chakdar's Alertne boost?
 
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