The idea isn't to reproduce it in the form of its effects directly on someone's chakra system, but rather to reproduce it in the form of the water itself (to my understanding).
Or at least, try and see if that's possible given our big shiny setting-breaking sealing paradigm of ultimate power, yeah. Like, maybe nothing comes of it, but having this water on-hand wherever we go is valuable enough (for our present mission, boosted by FOOM over the course of months) that it's at least worth a shot.

And by "a shot" I mean "a handful of prep days squeezed into the margins of one day in which we were already doing other research, thus wasting essentially no time". I'll admit that the complications we've encountered have eaten up more time than I had hoped to spend here, but now that we've killed the chakravore nest even after updating for sunk costs the needle is still pointed at "stay the course and give it a shot" for me.
 
The water in this spring has some quality to it that means that hanging out in it for a while buffs your chakra system somehow.

Worth attempting to see if we can just cook something up that reproduces that effect in an AOE / sinking some time into it so we can eat the medical notes and at least understand the mednin gibber-jabber side of the equation.

I don't buy that all this stuff is just by fiat too complicated to figure out unless you're literally Orochimaru. It's time to hit the lab lol.
 
[X] Action Plan: More Voring!
Word Count: <299
  • Noburi
    • Remind him that we promised to teach him SC as soon as he studies his bloodline, that hasn't changed. Whatever answer he comes up and whatever level of risk he's willing to accept, we're fine with.
    • We'd still like his help for a few days on the chakra water runes, but after that he's good to start studying his bloodline and SC.
    • Point out that even without SC he's still keeping up with Hazou and Kei. He's stronger than either head-to-head and a jounin-level medic to boot.
    • Hazou also has no plans to focus on mednin/medknow, it's just that there are some runes that touch on medical things, and he might want to pick up biosealing some day (cue terrified screaming). Noburi's place as primary medic is safe.
  • The Cave
    • Continue clearing it with Noburi, Kei, Hazou, and Tenten.
    • Be alert for chakravores and magmaspines.
      • Chakra permitting, Hazou should cast Living Roots to detect magmaspines before any uncleared suspicious spaces.
    • Keep using the misterator drain to kill other beasties
    • Tenten especially shouldn't be afraid to retreat from any remaining chakravores if her chakra is getting low.
      • If RW outranges the voring she could stand outside of their range and snipe them down.
    • If Kei thinks the cave can take it, a full power explosive tag should help mass-kill the 'vores, since their stats are so low.
    • The team should make an effort to leave a clear line of retreat by sealing off branching tunnels until they're ready to clear them. Use MEW
This is similar (~250) in terms of wordcount but I think some of the phrasing hits the mark a bit better.
  • Noburi
    • Point of order:
      • He's a jonin-level medic and would take Kei or Hazo in a straight fight. Frankly, they can only give him a good fight because of Noburi.
      • We want to study medicine because we need it for rune research. He studies medicine because it's his calling and life's work. We aren't the same. We're happy to be a backup medic, but we're not cut out to be a healer. It's not who we are.
    • Shadow Clone:
      • About time. He can have it whenever he wants. Will he still help out with chakra water runes for a few days first?
      • Where is he with bloodline research? Did he get anything done with Tsunade?
        • Basically: how is SC going to interact with his bloodline?
        • What's the plan, and what are the risks?
        • Approach this from a place of support. Unless he's acting recklessly, don't gatekeep the technique. If he seems to be acting recklessly, bring in Yuno and Kei.
  • The Cave
    • Hazo, Kei, Noburi, and Tenten keep clearing.
    • Get Yuno's approval on tactics:
      • Leave a clear line of retreat, including Substitution targets, wherever possible. MEW off branching tunnels until they can be cleared, and leave motion/chakra-detecting warning seals if possible.
      • Watch for chakravores and magmaspines.
      • Chakra permitting, use Living Roots to detect magmaspines in uncleared or suspicious spaces.
      • Keep using misterators to kill anything else.
      • Tenten especially should retreat if her chakra gets low. Can she stay out of drain range and snipe?
      • If Kei thinks the cave can take it, a full power explosive tag likely one-hits the 'vores (since their stats are so low).
Mostly, I figure that Noburi was going for a mic-drop moment and we should lean into that as opposed to telling him that he can have SC once he's done his homework. He isn't stupid or suicidal and he might need us to teach him the technique before he can actually do any research on it. I don't know what that would work out to mechanically/in terms of XP spend, but it seems entirely plausible that he needs to have a solid working knowledge of the theoretical side in order to actually figure out if it'll make him explode or not.

[X] Action Plan: More Voring!
 
The sannin got strong from exploring places like this - I'd like to think at least some of that is because they researched effects like this and managed to replicate them. There's not much incentive to go into these places if the effects only last a week and it's impossible to study and understand what they do.

Nobs is not just a jonin tier medic, he has an amazingly applicable bloodline to pair with it, and Hazou's capabilities and the vast abilities of runes go without saying...
 
The sannin got strong from exploring places like this - I'd like to think at least some of that is because they researched effects like this and managed to replicate them. There's not much incentive to go into these places if the effects only last a week and it's impossible to study and understand what they do.

Nobs is not just a jonin tier medic, he has an amazingly applicable bloodline to pair with it, and Hazou's capabilities and the vast abilities of runes go without saying...
Noburi is not interested in doing research into effects like this, or getting more powerful generally. Hazo is not equipped to address the biology effect. And the Sanin fought a war from this location, so they weren't getting the effects "for a week".

(Doubter & H8r reporting for duty)
 
Noburi is not interested in doing research into effects like this
He is now (he has no choice in the matter) ((but for real he didn't say anything about not wanting to, he only expressed doubt because he does not believe in himself enough))

or getting more powerful generally
OK this one is complete and utter cap. He was moaning about getting surpassed in strength like one chapter ago and mentions it all the time. He objectively does care about getting more powerful generally. He also cares about not being perpetual barrel boy which this would help alleviate

Hazo is not equipped to address the biology effect.
Hence why Hazou is learning mednin and consulting/collabing with Noburi who is probably one of the best mednin in the world now by effective rolls.

And the Sanin fought a war from this location, so they weren't getting the effects "for a week".
I'm speaking generally. They made a career out of visiting places like this. If they're frequently just temporary bumps that you can't study or do anything with afterwards, there's not much gained by visiting them, so why would they bother to do so?

The Sannin were all extremely skilled researchers, I don't think that's coincidence. Hazou and Noburi are equipped to be literally one of the best sealmaster/medic collabs since the sannin themselves. If those bigass numbers mean literally anything, this is what they're for

(Doubter & H8r reporting for duty)
The ballers are indomitable, your doubt will undermine your own cause, prepare to be assimilated
 
Other than an obvious yes on the SC thing (modulo warnings about chakra system issues that he should know more about than we do), I'd like to remind Noburi that we will never be a doctor. We most likely won't even be an Orochimaru to his Tsunade. Learning medicine is about scientific knowledge for sealing research and about being a basic field medic, at best an assistant nurse to his brilliance. And yes, when it comes to medicine he's allowed to boss us around.
 
Noburi is not interested in doing research

Yeah I think that sucks but he's going to have to deal.

On this aspect, I don't really think anyone involved in this operation has the luxury of saying "I'm not really interested..." anymore. Hazou is giving himself brain damage regularly to pull rabbits out of his hat on this mission and Mari is ready and willing to do the same if needs must. I don't think lack of interest or someone's generic career trajectory matter right now, we're so far beyond that at this point that I'm highly doubting that Noburi has at all really processed what the situation is.

Even putting aside the actual improbability of the "Hazou is overshadowing me as the l33t medical guy" outcome, this outcome means that we won and lived to bitch and moan about it. "Six months from now" is an ephemeral fairy tale until we hit the research mines and bring Leaf something back of substance.

Noburi has some emotional crap going on, that's fine, I get it. We'll make sure he's taken care of ten times over, both now and in the future, but he needs to sit down and put the research skills to work, not give us an in-the-moment stream of consciousness answer any time we ask him to try to figure something out. Dude needs to actually sit down and do the work lol.
 
Yeah I think that sucks but he's going to have to deal.

On this aspect, I don't really think anyone involved in this operation has the luxury of saying "I'm not really interested..." anymore. Hazou is giving himself brain damage regularly to pull rabbits out of his hat on this mission and Mari is ready and willing to do the same if needs must. I don't think lack of interest or someone's generic career trajectory matter right now, we're so far beyond that at this point that I'm highly doubting that Noburi has at all really processed what the situation is.

Even putting aside the actual improbability of the "Hazou is overshadowing me as the l33t medical guy" outcome, this outcome means that we won and lived to bitch and moan about it. "Six months from now" is an ephemeral fairy tale until we hit the research mines and bring Leaf something back of substance.

Noburi has some emotional crap going on, that's fine, I get it. We'll make sure he's taken care of ten times over, both now and in the future, but he needs to sit down and put the research skills to work, not give us an in-the-moment stream of consciousness answer any time we ask him to try to figure something out. Dude needs to actually sit down and do the work lol.

Seconding this. Very much seconding this.
 
Noburi is not interested in doing research into effects like this, or getting more powerful generally.
Noburi has always wanted to contribute. For a good long while, becoming an S-rank doctor was a pretty okay way to do this. In addition to the tremendous utility of 'no, you're not going to die here' there was a HUGE amount of political power that came along with being associated with Leaf General and having Tsunade's favour. It might not have been optimal, but the optimal choice in terms of power per unit time was for him to shadow Orochimaru instead of Tsunade and learning biosealing. No one, I don't think, begrudges the choice he made.

Now that continuing to study medicine is no longer a viable path for expanding his personal power and that of Uplift generally, I expect Noburi to pivot pretty fast and pretty effectively as soon as it's viable. We've been running around like crazy people and between that and keeping everyone's sanity on a low boil his time has been pretty spoken for. I would probably have expected him to double down on Sage mode, but seemingly he wants to take a look at Shadow Clone first. Cool.

I guess my specific objection is to the idea that he's not interested in this stuff. I bet that he is, he just had other interests and it turns out that not everyone can (or should) try to pursue literally all of their research interests simultaneously.
On this aspect, I don't really think anyone involved in this operation has the luxury of saying "I'm not really interested..." anymore. Hazou is giving himself brain damage regularly to pull rabbits out of his hat on this mission and Mari is ready and willing to do the same if needs must. I don't think lack of interest or someone's generic career trajectory matter right now, we're so far beyond that at this point that I'm highly doubting that Noburi has at all really processed what the situation is.
Which situation do you think Noburi has failed to grasp - 'we're missing and need every available powerup to kill the Akatsuki and survive being missing', or 'the world is at a tipping point and Goketsu needs to increase their collectively power dramatically'?

What would the counterfactual world where Noburi had processed things look like?
Even putting aside the actual improbability of the "Hazou is overshadowing me as the l33t medical guy" outcome, this outcome means that we won and lived to bitch and moan about it. "Six months from now" is an ephemeral fairy tale until we hit the research mines and bring Leaf something back of substance.

Noburi has some emotional crap going on, that's fine, I get it. We'll make sure he's taken care of ten times over, both now and in the future, but he needs to sit down and put the research skills to work, not give us an in-the-moment stream of consciousness answer any time we ask him to try to figure something out. Dude needs to actually sit down and do the work lol.
I think it's probably noteworthy that Noburi didn't express any material reluctance to training us and indeed affirmed that he'll do so? I don't read any of this update as him having significant reservations about teaching us. I think he's noticing that he's got some feelings, and he's embodying the ostensible Uplift family value of talking about your feelings when you notice them and think they might be relevant.

Don't get me wrong, if he comes back in a week and says 'yeah I can totally use SC, just had to go think about it and run some tests, lol' I'm going to be a little pissed that he didn't do it earlier. But I don't really know what we would have wanted him to do before this exact moment, and my firm expectation is that whatever he's going to do to verify that he *can* actually use SC is something he couldn't have done until we were free to discuss the particulars of the technique with him.

Once he has a few successful research projects under his belt I expect his perspective on research to change significantly. We just need to get him over that hump.
 
I think it's probably noteworthy that Noburi didn't express any material reluctance to training us and indeed affirmed that he'll do so? I don't read any of this update as him having significant reservations about teaching us. I think he's noticing that he's got some feelings, and he's embodying the ostensible Uplift family value of talking about your feelings when you notice them and think they might be relevant.

Don't get me wrong, if he comes back in a week and says 'yeah I can totally use SC, just had to go think about it and run some tests, lol' I'm going to be a little pissed that he didn't do it earlier. But I don't really know what we would have wanted him to do before this exact moment, and my firm expectation is that whatever he's going to do to verify that he *can* actually use SC is something he couldn't have done until we were free to discuss the particulars of the technique with him.

Once he has a few successful research projects under his belt I expect his perspective on research to change significantly. We just need to get him over that hump.

I want to be clear here: I am not bitching about his reaction in the last update. I don't particularly understand why "Oh no I am going to get overshadowed on my special interest" is something he is feeling particularly strongly about right now as opposed to a constant repetition of "If we don't succeed then we're either dead or missing-nin forever. If we don't succeed then we're either dead or missing-nin forever. If we don't..." drowning out everything else (because that to me seems like a far larger stressor here) but people are messy, complex things and I don't really care to dissect it too much other than giving him the thumbs up before asking him if he would like a milkshake and fries to go along with the S-rank hax, gold medals, and parades once we're done with this.

But if we come to the guy with a research problem that needs investigating, he should be asking "How high do you need me to jump?" and spending some time thinking about it before dismissing it as difficult or impossible. The five minute hypothetical digression about "What are you even going to do if I discover that it's magic strawberry flavored chakra powering stuff anyway?"[1] is not "Hmm, I don't know and that sounds fucking impossible, but I can spend a few days working on it and try to get more of an answer anyway, if you want." which is what you gotta do when you're actually trying to figure something out.

[1] You could argue he attempted to mentally gauge the difficulty of this task within a few seconds, as the expert, but my response then is "I didn't see any research rolls so he must not have been trying all that hard."


tl;dr:

NOBURI: I want Shadow Clone.
HAZOU: Yeah sure, so long as it won't kill you. You can have whatever the heck else you want too man, seriously lol. Did I mention I can get you more time per time? Hell, a year or two from now I can probably cook up something that'll let you get away with some consecutive all nighters too. Do you want some S-rank stuff or special seals or runes made for you while I'm at it?
NOBURI: Uh. Sure?
HAZOU: Cool, it's a deal.
NOBURI: ... is there a catch there?
HAZOU: Yeah, put your apron on and start your research rolls motherfucker we have OP shit to cook up. You think I like getting migraines twice a week? Fuck no, but needs must when shit is this fucked up.
NOBURI: ... fair enough man.
 
NOBURI: ... is there a catch there?
HAZO: The catch is that sharing Shadow Clone without the hokage's express permission means we don't get to go home until we either befriend or permanently incapacitate the remainder of Akatsuki, and preferably also bring Jiraya and Akane back from the dead. But we're stuck doing that anyway, so official paperwork isn't a concern anymore.
 
HAZO: The catch is that sharing Shadow Clone without the hokage's express permission means we don't get to go home until we either befriend or permanently incapacitate the remainder of Akatsuki, and preferably also bring Jiraya and Akane back from the dead. But we're stuck doing that anyway, so official paperwork isn't a concern anymore.
I'm puzzled. This was already the case, we were never going home without Akatsuki dead or neutralized. We also already shared SC with Yuno, so it's not even like this is unprecedented.

So what's the objection here?
 
I'm puzzled. This was already the case, we were never going home without Akatsuki dead or neutralized. We also already shared SC with Yuno, so it's not even like this is unprecedented.

So what's the objection here?
No objection. I'm more just... wondering why Noburi felt he needed to ask? Sole plausible obstacle at this point is his ability to do it safely, which Hazo has no way to meaningfully independently assess. If Nobs thinks he's ready, if whatever he learned about his bloodline has convinced him odds of death by chakra overdraw (or other shadow clone training mishap) are at acceptable-risk levels? Sure, let's set up a time rune for the training area and get to work.
 
No objection. I'm more just... wondering why Noburi felt he needed to ask? Sole plausible obstacle at this point is his ability to do it safely, which Hazo has no way to meaningfully independently assess. If Nobs thinks he's ready, if whatever he learned about his bloodline has convinced him odds of death by chakra overdraw (or other shadow clone training mishap) are at acceptable-risk levels? Sure, let's set up a time rune for the training area and get to work.

Honestly? This. I had a throughline of confusion with Noburi's request. Until now I couldn't quite put my finger on it because my memory was a bit fuzzy. But Hazou announced to the whole of extended Uplift that he wants to teach SC to everyone present. So... Why is Noburi acting like it's Hazou that's keeping him from learning it?
 
"Yeah." She widened her stance, sliding smoothly down into a straddle split. "All of you get filled up from the kid?"

"The medic boy?" he asked, twisting down into a pretzel stretch. "Yes. Time consuming. He needed to shuttle back and forth to Leaf multiple times. You?"

"Same.
Noburi says [Tsunade/Oro's SC Reserves are] comparable to Asuma -- that is, way more than any other jounin he's drained
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Do we have an estimate for Tsunade's refill amount on Prime too? We know Oro can take a full barrel of Noburi's chakra, can Tsunade?

Also is it possible to get an estimate of [Asuma sized] reserves, in terms of Hazou? 2x as much 2.5x as much 3x as much etc?
 
Nope, the +22 from sealing crossover doesn't count towards AB, if you check the sheet you can see that Hazou's PS AB is 4 and not 6.
Dammit. Sorry, I knew that in principle because we used to have very short maximum PS cycles, but I forgot that the direct DoB bonus does count towards AB and I knew we could do more than 3 prep days so I thought it must have been based on full eff. PS. Edited.
 
(Edit: @Sir Stompy pointed out that I'd miscounted how many prep days we could do, so actually it's more than two full-prep DoB cycles we've now missed.)
I don't really endorese this count. If we went straight back to researching we'd still need to travel to the next location. I imagine it would take 5ish days to do that. Since people were talking about going off the edge of the map. That would put this at roughly 6 days more research than the alternatives. So 1 cycle.
 
Nope, the +22 from sealing crossover doesn't count towards AB, if you check the sheet you can see that Hazou's PS AB is 4 and not 6.
Why is this? Don't most innate bonuses affect AB?
The new rule, short version: By default a given roll can benefit from any number of passive or innate bonuses (e.g. bloodlines and chakra boost) but only one active bonus (e.g. jutsu, seals) In order to use more than one active advantage at a time, you can buy stunts that let you use particular combinations together.

Better news! After much discussion, the QMs have decided that the crossover bonus between disciplines (e.g. Sealing and Primoridal Sealing) is innate, not a buff. As such, it does not require a 100 XP combination stunt in order to work alongside Disciple of the Beyond. You may rejoice now.
 
[X] Action Plan: More Voring!

In the meantime, there are a few things to focus on.

1: Giving the team more time to train via runes seems like something we should have already been doing. Are the timespeeders short-ranged enough that our research is likely to kill them if we use the same ones, thus making it so that teamspeeding detracts from rune research?

2: We don't seem to have unstagnated, having fought animals and now run through a cavern throwing explosives (although we did get GM fun exp, which was nice). Do we need to fight ninja to unstagnate? If so, unstagnation may be impossible without revealing our location, barring combat on the seventh path.
2b- would Kei and Hazō faking some kind of epic duel to the death, for the sake of the Pangolin conflict, count for unstagnation? It's a bad idea for political reasons - too many things could go wrong - but if combat unstagnation comes from doing new or unique things to deal with clever opponents and novel problems, it could be that sparring with heavy non-survival (or at least direct survival) stakes could help. Have we ever tested that?

3: Obviously, plan Voremore involves having Noburi get shadow clones - shadow clones who, like Snowflake, lack his bloodline. If he can figure out a way to safely summon them and distribute Chakra to them, what kind of chakra capacity would they have? Something low, most likely, given his inability to develop a chakra pool normally? And they'd lack one of his primary combat options.
Obviously, we're still giving it to him. But the question of 'what to train' advice comes in. Taijutsu mostly helps with skill, not physical conditioning - this isn't The Waves Arisen. Ninjutsu and Medical jutsu… their chakra senses may be completely different to Noburi's. Is this something that would prove counterproductive to jutsu skill, or could it provide a unique perspective for him on the nature of chakra, bolstering his ideas and capabilities? We should check with Snowflame Snowflake and Kei on this, even if she doesn't have chakra-perception alteration. Noburi's clones should have the same mind as him, just differing chakra senses.

4: We really should see if the chakravores and Noburi can help us invent some kind of chakra sight. The charkascopes are good, but I want All Encompassing Sorcerer's Sight quite badly. I admit it's a longshot and probably going to be put on the back burner, and we aren't going to take a living chakravores for now, and probably years… but damn it, we have a Grue that took away one of the Academy Three. After years or decades of it existing! We should be able to get something useful before it yoinks it, if it's connected to an immobile rune. A lab of chakra-analysis. It could revolutionize the industry!

5: There was something else, but I've already forgotten it. Will write it down and come back if I ever remember. I hope it was good. I have no clue now.

6: For unrelated reasons, Hazō should look into quantum chips that aid memory and cannot be used to mind control people. You know, after uplift works and humanity becomes ascendant gods. In a bit.
 
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Honestly? This. I had a throughline of confusion with Noburi's request. Until now I couldn't quite put my finger on it because my memory was a bit fuzzy. But Hazou announced to the whole of extended Uplift that he wants to teach SC to everyone present. So... Why is Noburi acting like it's Hazou that's keeping him from learning it?
I don't get that impression at all.

What he said scanned to me as 'I wasn't initially going to pursue this because it seemed like a massive risk but now, due to a few factors, I'm going to go full Goketsu and make it work'.

It's notable that he isn't asking Hazo to teach him the jutsu. He's telling him that he wants it.
 
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