Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Shadowwarp · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
It strikes me as odd as to why this would even be a thing in a ninja society. Specifically one based on hereditary techniques. Of all the horrible things ninja have to go through in this crapsack world, this one isn't even the worst. There might even be workarounds that don't involve physical contact.

But maybe the Wakahisa are less concerned about these things than the Nara are. Since they still expect Keiko to produce heirs even when her interests also lie elsewhere, mildly put.

Really? I'd assume it would be taken even worse in a society where overpowered mystical abilities are hereditary than it was in real life medieval societies. Clansmen would probably be pretty annoyed if their leader wasn't willing to make more bloodline powered children because they weren't interested in the opposite sex.

ContextBot · May 24, 2020

I don't think giving away bloodline secrets is a good idea, Nobby didn't even want us to tell Jiraiya:

Velorien said:
Noburi shifted uncomfortably.

"Hazō, are you sure you should be spreading this kind of thing around? You know the adoption rules. You keep your old clan's secrets from your new clan, and vice versa. Otherwise you couldn't ever have inter-clan marriage or adoption."

It will also making him question who we told about the Wakahisa secrets.

Tua · May 24, 2020

Shadowwarp said:
Really? I'd assume it would be taken even worse in a society where overpowered mystical abilities are hereditary than it was in real life medieval societies. Clansmen would probably be pretty annoyed if their leader wasn't willing to make more bloodline powered children because they weren't interested in the opposite sex.

Yeah, that's where I was going with that. Did it not come across properly?

From all the horrible things ninja get conditioned to do For The Greater Good, producing heirs isn't the worst thing. Hence my surprise that this was even an issue the Wakahisa had.

faflec · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
Yeah, that's where I was going with that. Did it not come across properly?

From all the horrible things ninja get conditioned to do For The Greater Good, producing heirs isn't the worst thing. Hence my surprise that this was even an issue the Wakahisa had.

It's not just the Wakahisa...

Tua · May 24, 2020

faflec said:
It's not just the Wakahisa...

Which other clan heads were refusing to produce heirs and got to do that without getting ousted?

faflec · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
Which other clan heads were refusing to produce heirs and got to do that without getting ousted?

Velorien said:
"Why'd you want him anyway?" Kiri asked. "It's not like there aren't enough of you already."

Shin didn't take the bait. Instead, he looked around them, and then lowered his voice.

"Because Lady Ren is single, and has always been single, and has shown about as much interest in men as Anna here."

"Hey!"

"Unless and until she has a child of her own, Gōketsu Hazō has the purest Kurosawa blood, and if Hana hadn't made him turn down our invitation, he'd have been next in line to rule the clan. Instead, things get complicated."

"You sure you should be spilling the beans like this, Shin? This sounds like some serious shit."

Shin shrugged. "I promise you anything that your clan heads already know all this. I bet it's why they had such an easy time supporting Lady Ren's candidacy for Mizukage—they're gambling that when it comes, the transition of power will take up all our resources long enough for somebody else to grab the hat without a struggle."

Tua · May 24, 2020

Yeah, gotta wonder why she got to keep the clan heir role then.

Then again, the Kurosawa did kick out the spare heir already so maybe they just ran out of alternatives. Clan of hypocrites, either way.

Or Mist is just seriously weird like that.

Sending children to die? That's fine.

Teaching pre-teens to young teens on how to seduce people (usually much older than them) for assassination or infiltration purposes? Sure, why not.

But expecting the clan head to actually produce heirs? Especially male clan heads who do not have to deal with getting pregnant and potentially being bedridden for a while when there is a clan to govern? That's one bridge too far.

It's just very confusing.

faflec · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
Yeah, gotta wonder why she got to keep the clan heir role then.

Then again, the Kurosawa did kick out the spare heir already so maybe they just ran out of alternatives. Clan of hypocrites, either way.

Or Mist is just seriously weird like that.

Sending children to die? That's fine.

Teaching pre-teens to young teens on how to seduce people (usually much older than them) for assassination or infiltration purposes? Sure, why not.

But expecting the clan head to actually produce heirs? Especially male clan heads who do not have to deal with getting pregnant and potentially being bedridden for a while when there is a clan to govern? That's one bridge too far.

It's just very confusing.

That's because of Yagura's bijuu and hivemind, which had a very weird relationship.

eaglejarl · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
Especially male clan heads who do not have to deal with getting pregnant and potentially being bedridden for a while

Also that 1 to 1.5% mortality rate for childbirth in pre-modern times. (Granted, medical ninjutsu might affect that.)

Sentient Tree · May 24, 2020

What if we inform Asuma of the situation, give him a big list of things we want to offer the Wakahisa in exchange, and he can decide which ones he wants to approve. Then we do the negotiations with those things as the maximum that we are willing to trade.

Lord Marshal · May 24, 2020

My humble opinion on what to do:

Draw parallels to the Yakuza: Trust is at the base of a relationship, everything else is secondary. Explain the white/Black view the Yakuza have, Him and Hazou are "Gentlemen", he seek a relationship: that gives his words an extreme weight, for lying means breaking the unwritten deal such relationship is based on. Will he retract anything? Say anything more? Now the negotiation become an oath and a gesture of respect.
Leave him waiting, with the idea that the majority of what he offered is useful, but not extremely important, we need the Hokage permission, blah blah blah. Talk with the family, Help Noburi self-respect (Add 1+ to his OPSEC counter), calm Keiko, ask Mari various things(Asuma opinion, Ren/Mist clans angles, Ami,ect), ask everyone what should be done and what should be offered
Proposal: secretly coordinate with Asuma to use this to bind Mist(Or at least the Wakahisa and their allies) in the alliance even more strongly and to offer things that make the Wakahisa stronger(To show how useful is to be allied with Leaf) but whose counters are known to Leaf(Making Makahisa nin weaker against us) or a simply obsolete for Leaf-nin. We offer such items very carefully, the best thing to give them is "political help", "Direct access to the Leaf decisions" and other useful but not materials item(Make sure that is not something treasonous)
Finally,should Hazou/Mari/Noburi go to mist? find more information(Surely Ami has minion we can use to see what is real and what is fake) before accepting anything more binding?

Aside from that, i don't know, ask him what he thinks we should offer to him, he could play his cards wrong? See if we can offer this as a contest contribution?

Velorien · May 24, 2020

Tua said:
Then again, the Kurosawa did kick out the spare heir already so maybe they just ran out of alternatives.

Strictly speaking, Ren was the spare heir.

Orisha91 · May 24, 2020

If were bringing the Hokage in on this, we could try and get back on Asuma's good side by relaying Ami's peace on the seventh path plan to him. That might make him more likely to help us.

Of course we only know phase one of the process, and I'm assuming the role of summoners might take on some powers he might not be comfortable with, but...at least we're being transparent.

RandomOTP · May 24, 2020

ContextBot said:
I see no harm in letting Mari play with him, maybe we get a cute little Wakahisa baby out of this.

My issues with this plan are that

We don't know how much of Mari's actions are rooted in genuine interest and how much are just manipulating someone who has an attraction to her.
Mari doesn't want to be the Heartbreaker anymore. If she brings it up, and is wholly, completely comfortable with it, and doesn't think it'll harm her mental/emotional health, then... maybe. I'm not preaching purity culture on a soapbox, I'm just remembering the last time we let Mari "play" with people, she backslid into the Heartbreaker a little bit. Mari wants to be better than the person that she was, and encouraging her to "play" with people seems a little too close to encouraging the worst aspects of her personality to me.

Gamerlord said:
You don't seem to understand the political/personal situation - right now Asuma is watching like a hawk, searching for anything that would let him execute Hazou because he believes him to be a danger to Leaf. A traitor. The genjutsu fiction is just that - a fiction. In order to regain a positive relationship with the Hokage we cannot make decisions this important without involving him as greatly and as publicly as possible. The treason crisis is. Not. Over. If it was we'd be totally free to negotiate but it isn't. Just 'consulting Mari' isn't going to be enough. Asuma needs to feel like he's made an impression on Hazou. He needs to believe that Hazou has been sufficiently terrified and is submitting to his authority. That the most unpredictable and problematic clan has stepped back into line. That means we do not exercise our power without his say-so.

Agreed. Not to mention any trade we begin with Mist might be taken as a sign that we're still loyal to Mist. And right now, we can't afford that appearance. The new ambassador seemed to assume that Team Uplift still considered Mist their home, and that any signs otherwise were just a polite fiction. We cannot allow that to continue. I say that we dismiss him, talk to Mari, and then schedule a meeting with the Hokage. Mari might have some valuable insight, but I think that we definitely need to talk to Asuma before we go around

faflec said:
So I'm unsure what our plan should be, does Hazou believe it's appropriate for us to be making an offer now as opposed to having him dismissed so we can "mull it over" or similar? I seem to recall that when we did the "deal with it later" dance with Orochimaru he dismissed us due to being useless without the clan to talk him through.

Orochimaru was in an inherently better place, negotiation-wise by factor of being... well, you know, Orochimaru

Sentient Tree said:
What if we inform Asuma of the situation, give him a big list of things we want to offer the Wakahisa in exchange, and he can decide which ones he wants to approve. Then we do the negotiations with those things as the maximum that we are willing to trade.

I'd be okay with this. We can also have Hazou, Kagome, and the clanless sealscribes check out Noburi's barrel and see if they can make new seals for it. Or at least design one. Noburi hasn't felt any loss in usage, right? So we have, theoretically, some amount of time to do research and experimentation. We might be able to sidestep this issue ourselves. Though, whether Noburi's old clan would like that is it's own thing --though I'm of the opinion that they get no say and can go stand in the corner.

Orisha91 said:
If were bringing the Hokage in on this, we could try and get back on Asuma's good side by relaying Ami's peace on the seventh path plan to him. That might make him more likely to help us.

Of course we only know phase one of the process, and I'm assuming the role of summoners might take on some powers he might not be comfortable with, but...at least we're being transparent.

I would very much be okay with plans that have us trying to get Ami back.

Edit: Honestly, I think this slimeball of a new ambassador is going to wind up being killed. He barged in on our home, demanding a meeting. He's poking and prodding everything with only a pretense of politeness. I think he's going to push the fact that the role of an ambassador is "vague and ill-defined" to his advantage until he winds up dead by ninja.

RandomOTP · May 24, 2020

[x] Action Plan: Covering Our Valuable Vulnerabilities
Words: tbd

Handsign to Mari, what does she think?
Politely dismiss him, tell him that we'll take some time to think about it
- Remind him that he's the one who was so uncouth as to barge in here without an appointment.
- Be vaguely threatening if he deserves it.
Once he's out of earshot...
- Ask Mari her opinion.
- Have Kagome look at Noburi's barrel, is there an issue?
- Look at the seals with Kagome, could the two of you create a new seal for the barrel, if such an issue exists?
- Would Noburi be okay bringing in other Leaf/Clanless sealmasters in on the project, if it becomes one.
Keiko
- Shimaru has hinted that the more intellectual clans (Mori, Nara, etc) have an open line of dialogue. Could this be leveraged to help Ami?
Schedule a meeting with the Hokage
- Be forthright about the meeting with the ambassador
  - Tell Asuma our guesses --that he wants us to murderize someone to get him as the next clan heir
  - Tell Asuma our observations of the new ambassador as clinically as possible
- Argue in favor of Ami being the ambassador over this guy

Lailoken · May 24, 2020

Shrooms said:
Sasuke moment, sasuke moment

Also, RIP ami, your love interest route ends early, you will be missed... we're definitely reviving you last tho hehe

Anyone want to guess what she needed Noburi for?

*sigh*

Lailoken said:
I know that this is going to be shifted right out of the hivemind's awareness yet again, but given the Keiko, Pangolin, and Leaf chakra beast situations I have to raise it another time:

We have a way to address all of them. Summons are extremely long-lived and are probably both controlling their populations' reproduction and in a state of constant endemic war due to food limits. Leaf just lost enough ninja to raise the specter of needing to abandon territory due to being unable to control chakra beast numbers.

We have a summoner, soon two, and a Wakahisa. Chakra beasts have chakra. If we invite as many summons as we possibly can to participate they can run wild through the virgin wilderness massacring wildlife and dragging it back to be drained of chakra to fuel yet more summons while the humans cut off the horns, drain the humors, take any other valuable bits, and then allow the bodies to be sent to the summon realm for consumption and trade. In terms of return on investment it is far more profitable than fighting wars for agricultural territory, so that drains resources and incentives from warmongering and the enhanced trade does so further. Leaf gets oodles of safe new agricultural territory and an eager market for its enhanced food output. The Gouketsu get literal mountains of valuable chakra beast parts and serve as the lynchpin of a massive rapid-trade network on both the human and summon paths. Sage help the scorch squad who stumbles upon the reason Leaf's economy is booming in an area while out on a mission.

Keiko gets to solve her problem by selling food instead of weapons.

Oh, on another matter, since Noburi is going to become a summoner soon we need to make a note to remind him Jiraiya flipped the hell out at the idea of summons being chakra drained and that he probably shouldn't drain anything on or from the seventh path until he's at least asked the toads about it.

As long as I'm shouting into the dark, Hazou still hasn't copied those seals Kagome noticed in Akane's room in the hospital so Kagome could start analyzing them. If anybody's worried about Kabuto being nefarious that would be a simple, fast avenue of investigation.

Lailoken said:
I hand you solid gold on a weekly basis and you demonstrably haven't had to take it.

Only one way to find out. Pandaa has consumed human path fire termites and enjoyed their novelty before. Their cooks can concentrate their efforts on the incoming fresh meat and seal the best results, which are bound to be preferable to a lot of rations. If there's some of it they just plain don't like which can't be saved with skilled preparation they can seal it away and trade it to a species which does.

Again, even if the land generates absolutely no profit for the team this is still a massively high RoI operation.

There are always unknowns, but I'd be a heck of a lot more sympathetic about investigation delays if I hadn't already been talking about this option since before the team even joined Leaf and watched it only get attention after the hivemind allowed and even pushed everything into a crisis which threatens to bring total ruin crashing down about our ears.

They're also the ones who will be, y'know, paying for the privilege of a surge of high-variety exotic zero-risk food instead instead of fighting and dying against other clans over scraps of pasture.

This plan doesn't put the Gouketsu in conflict with Nara interests, so Keiko isn't obligated to tell the Nara anything about it. She chose marriage instead of adoption specifically so she wouldn't be expected to tattle everything she hears.

-and that's assuming that he can't add more value than he'd extract.

Will this time be remembered? Will the thread realize the trade value of a symmetrical gold rush mutually dependant on both summoners and Wakahisa to indefinitely scale to multi-worldwide safety and security? Of course not, but stay tuned anyway!

Immortal Lurker · May 24, 2020

eaglejarl said:
Mari shifted uncomfortably on the couch, looking like she was choosing her words. "His brother is unlikely to have children. He has...alternative interests."

Wait, I'm confused. I thought gay ninja just fed homophobes their own teeth until everyone got over it. Is it different in Mist, different for heirs, or are his interests really alternative?

As for the deal, anything we decide to do must be approved by Asuma. But we want this deal to go through. Above board Koi ponds will be incredible. We will likely have to make continual payments to get experts to care for them, but thats fine. We will still pay with Gouketsu resources and secrets, but he needs to approve them.

Ideas on what to pay with:

Mist secrets.
- Bloodline secrets
- Others. Mari should know a crapton of them.
Money. We have some
Civilian training. We have schools and experts, they might go for it.
Train students in sealing?
Explosive tags.
Sealtech processed lumber
Secret of forcewalls?
An absurd amount of chakra beast parts fueled by rampage.
Storage scrolls full of that paralytic poison

Oneiros · May 24, 2020

I just want it established that this kid is a chump desperately trying to make a play. He's 3-5 people away from being clan head. He isn't an actual threat in any way compared to the normal essies we deal with. He's not an Ami level social manipulator backed with a thinker bloodline. Just imagine that it was Shin making us this offer cause that's exactly the threat level the kid represents. We can work with him but he's the JV partner in any alliance we start

RandomOTP · May 24, 2020

Immortal Lurker said:
Wait, I'm confused. I thought gay ninja just fed homophobes their own teeth until everyone got over it. Is it different in Mist, different for heirs, or are his interests really alternative?

I think her awkwardness was more because Shin apparently didn't know that the guy was gay. He had a look of surprise at the news.

Oneiros said:
I just want it established that this kid is a chump desperately trying to make a play. He's 3-5 people away from being clan head. He isn't an actual threat in any way compared to the normal essies we deal with. He's not an Ami level social manipulator backed with a thinker bloodline. Just imagine that it was Shin making us this offer cause that's exactly the threat level the kid represents. We can work with him but he's the JV partner in any alliance we start

I'm not a fan of the way he's treating this. He barged into our home, disrespected our guards, assumed that we still considered Mist our home and then ignored any words to the contrary, and he also treated Noburi poorly. If he weren't protected by the Ambassador title, I vote for most plans that had us feeding him his teeth. I'm still holding out hope that another Leaf ninja would do it for us.

Maybe, if Asuma decides he doesn't like the ambassador, we can ask Mari to genjutsu him into picking fights with an Inuzuka.

Lailoken · May 24, 2020

I don't know why I'm bothering, but it's important to note that there is a good chance that half the enemy is inside the Mori. Ami disowned Keiko to protect her from intraclan machinations, and then reversed course with what she freely admitted was going to be a very tough needle to thread.

On the plus side, the thinker clans appear to have their own clandestine communications network and general coordination. A message from another one along the lines of, "Dudes, seriously not cool. This will not be forgotten nor forgiven", might give them pause.

Immortal Lurker · May 24, 2020

[X]Lailoken

RandomOTP · May 24, 2020

Lailoken said:
On the plus side, the thinker clans appear to have their own clandestine communications network and general coordination. A message from another one along the lines of, "Dudes, seriously not cool. This will not be forgotten nor forgiven", might give them pause.

RandomOTP said:
[x] Action Plan: Covering Our Valuable Vulnerabilities
Words: tbd

Handsign to Mari, what does she think?

Politely dismiss him, tell him that we'll take some time to think about it

Remind him that he's the one who was so uncouth as to barge in here without an appointment.

Be vaguely threatening if he deserves it.

Once he's out of earshot...

Ask Mari her opinion.

Have Kagome look at Noburi's barrel, is there an issue?

Look at the seals with Kagome, could the two of you create a new seal for the barrel, if such an issue exists?

Would Noburi be okay bringing in other Leaf/Clanless sealmasters in on the project, if it becomes one.

Keiko

Shimaru has hinted that the more intellectual clans (Mori, Nara, etc) have an open line of dialogue. Could this be leveraged to help Ami?

Schedule a meeting with the Hokage

Be forthright about the meeting with the ambassador

Tell Asuma our guesses --that he wants us to murderize someone to get him as the next clan heir

Tell Asuma our observations of the new ambassador as clinically as possible

Argue in favor of Ami being the ambassador over this guy

Lailoken · May 24, 2020

Good start, but to the best of my knowledge Keiko had multiple ways to infer it while Hazou has none. Best to check in with Loremaster @faflec.

Ani74 · May 24, 2020

Nice, eazy going beach chapter

politely talk him off with reaaaly tiny threat of painful death by sealing failure up his ass. we definitly need time to process this with clan. talk to asuma asap...

faflec · May 24, 2020

Lailoken said:
Good start, but to the best of my knowledge Keiko had multiple ways to infer it while Hazou has none. Best to check in with Loremaster @faflec.

Velorien said:
"Now, where was I?" Keiko said. "One does not simply bring toy kittens into Leaf. All goods and visitors undergo thorough inspection, and packages as suspicious as this one doubly so. There is no guarantee that this message would arrive safely rather than being disassembled or destroyed by the security forces. It would be necessary for an internal source to procure and deliver the item on the Mori's behalf.

"With whom in Leaf might the Mori communicate unmonitored? The Nara, of course. A Nara faction, then, one inclined to ferry a message opaque to themselves on the Mori's behalf? But that is not the Nara's way. The Akimichi, perhaps, might accept a simple trade in favours, but the Nara would never allow themselves to be a blind piece in another's game.

"What am I missing? Should I consult the Nara, or is there a risk of becoming entangled in whatever complex relationship the two clans possess, and finding myself made such a blind piece myself?"

Sorry for being late, I was traveling.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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