- Location
- Omniverse #1345
And I'm saying it being mutable is questionable. I find it much more likely the Uchiha are going to assume this is a marriage arrangement, and will be very confused when Hazo says otherwise.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
And I'm saying it being mutable is questionable. I find it much more likely the Uchiha are going to assume this is a marriage arrangement, and will be very confused when Hazo says otherwise.
- Location
- United States
[X] Action Plan: Representation
Frankly, if it takes the Uchiha negotiator a moment to realise that no, Hazou is not proposing future marriages, then that's a very manageable non-problem.
Emstar
The Shining One
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- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
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This relies on this being communicated clearly between the two of them and in a manner that doesn't cause a hilarious yet unfortunate misunderstanding though.
Could be good to clarify, since its a failure mode for what you want.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
So I think we are talking past each other: I am saying such a status almost certainly does not exist outside of marriage. If we propose it they will assume we mean a marriage. If we clarify we do not they are going to think we are idiots and start reconsidering the entire deal, if it is said in front of them. Keiko was not offered such a position, and that was when the Hokage was the leader of the Goketsu, what you are proposing is a massive stomping on tradition and will not be taken well by the traditionalists.
The problem is simply the framework only exists in one context. It might seem trivial to expand that, but historically that was anything but the case. In the real world expanding such things tended to be the spark of some rather massive conflicts.
I mean... the entire hundred year war was based on two differing interpretations of if a woman could transfer their lineage or not. (The final answer was, eventually, after a ridiculous amount of fighting, No.) Naturally there was a lot more going on behind the scenes, but that justification for an English claim on the French throne was used as the justification of record.
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@faflec Can ya clarify that dual-membership is to be applied at birth, not with marriage?
Also, it may not be legally or politically possible, but it is something we preferred.
Until we find out that it's not legally possible.
Like, you can put anything in a legal contract. It doesn't mean it is actually legal.
I believe that:
- First of all, in no uncertain terms: we do not know whether this legal status has only been applied to marriages.
- It is very easy to state it in such a way that the Uchiha negotiator will not assume we're talking about marriages.
- I don't think they're going to consider the idea idiocy or anti-tradition, even if the legal status has never been used outside of marriages before, which I remind you we don't know.
- I don't think they're in a position to raise a huge stink about this, or else they wouldn't be begging us for babies.
Hilarious yet unfortunate misunderstandings are indeed rarely hilarious. Any tips on the wording?
E: here's my current version:
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
- Keiko was not offered it. She asked for her options. Her father was the Kage and did not suggest it. All together that makes it extremely unlikely it exists as a status outside of marriage.
- I will agree with that, but if it does not exist outside of marriage they may default to the assumed context, out of confusion.
- You really should do more research on just how... tense... inheritance and nobility laws were, historically. Anything that could adjust the balance of power like this would probably have led to a civil war in many countries.
- They are not the problem. The problem is when the conservative block hears about it. I suspect even some of our own allies would be aghast.
- It is also an area where we are not knowledgable about. Therefore, we should do our due diligence.
- Misunderstanding can be easy to cause especially with illusion of transparency. That's why we clarify.
- It is not about them raising a stink. Traditionalists and their allies...or simply the Hyuga may raise a stink by raising legal challenges.
Like, I am not opposed to the idea per se. I am just asking ya to do diligence, and to consider what happen if our clans are prohibited from doing this. You cannot do something that is considered illegal, and even if the law is unclear, you cannot do it without expecting oppositions.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
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"To clarify, we don't mean 'They will be married into the Uchiha.' , we mean 'They will be legally members of both of our clans.' "
One thing we could do is sign a treaty stipulating that as far as *all* internal Uchiha-Gouketsu matters are concerned , they must be considered legally a member of both clans in equal standing. Including but not limited to standard rights, taking conflicting missions, chain of command stuff, etc. and that any squables thereof need to be settled between the two clans' leadership before any action happens.
We don't know that J didn't suggest it. He could have done so in the initial offscreen negotiations but got told "No, Jiraiya, I won't support your clan unless the girl with the frozen skein bloodline ends up married to and bearing the children of a Nara".
No doubt it's tense. But a subject being tense doesn't mean people are immediately going to scoff at attempts to meet them halfway.
The conservative block is already out to kill us. I doubt any of our allies care very much except insofar as that we're making very strong ties to the Uchiha and this moves some of their chess pieces around.
Thanks for the explanation!
Hmm, personally, I feel like this doesn't quite translate to the situation at hand.
The clans of Konoha aren't explicitly enemies in the way the east and the west were during the cold war.
Rather, Clans should trust most other clans not to try to eradicate them first chance they get (I think this trust is kinda neccessary to form a ninja village in the first place), so issuing the treat in question would at least change the political climate.
E.g. 'Britain telling Germany they have the capabilities and the willingness to nuke the country, should Luxemburg be destroyed for any reason' in the modern day feels very different from similar declarations between the USA and USSR during the cold war.
There is currently no MAD between us (or the factions that would be involved in guaranteeing the Uchiha clan) and the Hyuuga (If there were, we would not be able to make the threat in question in the first place, right?), so since issuing this threat already demonstrates a willingness to attack the Hyuuga on our part, the Hyuuga are incentivized to attack us first to prevent such attacks on them in the future; if they can be somewhat certain that such a strike would be crippling enough to our faction.
Or, if they believe their chances to be to low, to flee.
The clans of Konoha aren't explicitly enemies in the way the east and the west were during the cold war.
Rather, Clans should trust most other clans not to try to eradicate them first chance they get (I think this trust is kinda neccessary to form a ninja village in the first place), so issuing the treat in question would at least change the political climate.
E.g. 'Britain telling Germany they have the capabilities and the willingness to nuke the country, should Luxemburg be destroyed for any reason' in the modern day feels very different from similar declarations between the USA and USSR during the cold war.
There is currently no MAD between us (or the factions that would be involved in guaranteeing the Uchiha clan) and the Hyuuga (If there were, we would not be able to make the threat in question in the first place, right?), so since issuing this threat already demonstrates a willingness to attack the Hyuuga on our part, the Hyuuga are incentivized to attack us first to prevent such attacks on them in the future; if they can be somewhat certain that such a strike would be crippling enough to our faction.
Or, if they believe their chances to be to low, to flee.
It sounds like you're making up reasons as to why we should go with the idea of 'dual-citizenship' thinking we want to remove the idea. That's not the case. I am trying to point out difficulties and obstacles and people that we need to be aware of and that we need to work on either beforehand or after we signed the treaty, and what to do if the council/towers won't allow the idea of dual clanship.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
Keiko talked to him and was offered two options. So you are saying that everyone lied and failed to mention the elephant in the room, and Keiko failed to find out about it.
The problem is not the Uchiha, it is everyone else. If this deal was only between us and the Uchiha I would be fine with your proposal. But all the clans are affected, and all the clans are going to care. We have to be careful.
This is why, yet again, I wish J didn't exaggerate the threat level of everything we faced. Notice every time J was faced with explaining how things could go wrong to Hazo he always chose the absolute worst-case scenario regardless of the fact that it was incredibly unlikely. Simply put they aren't going to try having us killed. That is a waste of manpower that may very well spark a civil war when Leaf can least afford it.
At the same time if we continue crushing their traditions and laws with no regard to their opinion of the matter there is no hope we will ever get the support we truly need to complete Uplift.
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Does it have to be an official two-clan membership?
Can't we have the children be in clan whatever for tax purposes, but arrange contracts between us giving them rights identical to what we consider two-clan-membership?
Surely it is within our right as clan to give a set of children access to our compound, and tell them whatever clan secret of ours we want.
And for the Uchiha to do the same. Simultaneously. By coincidence.
Are there any specific rights concerning two-clan-membership that may be outside a clan's jurisdiction that we are worried about?
Can't we have the children be in clan whatever for tax purposes, but arrange contracts between us giving them rights identical to what we consider two-clan-membership?
Surely it is within our right as clan to give a set of children access to our compound, and tell them whatever clan secret of ours we want.
And for the Uchiha to do the same. Simultaneously. By coincidence.
Are there any specific rights concerning two-clan-membership that may be outside a clan's jurisdiction that we are worried about?
No, I'm just explaining why I don't think your objections here sound reasonable.
*shrug*
No, I'm saying that Shikaku's support for creation of the Gouketsu may well have been conditional on the Nara getting the FS bloodline, in which case whether or not dual-clan adoption was an option in other cases, it was not an option in hers because it wasn't what Shikaku wanted in exhange for his support.
The deal is between us and the Uchiha. No other clans are parties in the deal.
But less facetiously, I really think you're worrying too much about this. Permanent dual-clan status is something the clans are fine with or Kei wouldn't have it. If we really are the first ones to do it for reasons other than marriage, then I don't think they're going to care unless
A) one clan subsumes the other, which isn't happening
Or B) an heir is dual-clan, which isn't happening
And if it really is such a terrible issue then Mari will shoot it down at the meeting.
Whether or not Jiraiya was exaggerating is speculation, sadly. I don't think he was. I hope you're right, though.
- Location
- UK
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- He/Him
You gave plausible sounding reasons as to why that not be the case, not refuted them. Really, all I am asking for is legal due diligence. Is that so much to ask for?
I'm not asking to charge ahead and bring this to negotiations, Kiba. I'm asking to present this at the clan meeting as a major thing Hazou would want. If it's dangerous then Mari will shoot it down.
Ah forget this, I need to get back to studying...
- Location
- Academy City
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- They
You're absolutely right that these two situationd are not equivalent. However, in my eyes, while there are lots of details we don't know, we can divide our understanding into two general categories:
1. The Hyuuga are capable of and willing to wipe out the uchiha, or are beleived to be so.
2. The above is not true, or is beleived to not be true.
In case 1, this isn't an escalation. Hiashi is already at least implicitly threatening the Uchiha with this, and probably more than that, given that Mari couldn't convince them to vote against Hiashi even at this price.
In case 2, this would be an escalation, but not one we need to take. If the reason they refuse to vote is not risk of the Uchiha being wiped out, it should be simple to learn that, and we won't need to threaten the Hyuuga not to do that any more than Britain needs to threaten Germany not to annex South Korea.
Normally, this would run into the problem that we don't neccesarily have accurate intel, but in this case, it doesnt matter because perception is the point. It doesnt really matter if the Hyuuga can wipe out the Uchiha or not. If they can but nobody knows this, any threats will seem empty and will be useless as coercion, and if they can't but people think they can the Uchiha will still act as though they can, and even an empty bluff and genocide is enough that I consider a second strike policy to be worthwhile.
Also, an aside: you can totally threaten your opponent even under a MAD scenario; you arr comstantly doing so, in fact, that's the whole premise of MAD. This doesn't just apply to the direct superweapons, either. For instance, if the Soviet Union had by some miracle managed to, I dunno, flip mexico and mass troops on the border, the USA could have told them to fuck off or they'd nuke anyway, MAD be damned. The worse you back someone into a corner, the less MAD protects you, because it's predicated on the idea that they don't want to be destroyed. Sure, both you and your fellow Criminal McLawbreaker might want to not call the cops on a turf war because you both have warrants out on you, but it gets more and more tempting if he starts trying to brain you with a lead pipe, because the assured destruction becomes less and less worse than what you already have.
Hiashi, thus, can't go "I'm going to kill the Uchiha and you can't stop me because MAD" - or, at least, not without us being able to go "we're allied with the Uchiha and any attack on them will be treated as an equivalent attack on us for the purposes of MAD" (one of NATO's favorites).
If your opponent is incentivised to attack you under MAD, you haven't done a good enough job setting it up. If we demonstrate that we will fuck the Hyuuga up should they attack us, that doesn't make it in their best interests to attack us. That's why this is, imo, a classic example of Second Strike Game Theory in particular, because that's the one that neuters Alpha Strikes to breach MAD.
It's our job to ask questions and anticipate problems.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
I don't mind geting pinged at all.
So far I am yet undecided on what to vote for though and was planning to look over the plans closer to the closing time. Most of my concerns have been met but I am yet undecided about whether I want the Uchiha to have the IN or not (I did quite like how that was handled in this post by @Ipsos Custodes for example).
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Personally, I think people who aren't
- Location
- United States
It's the same number of people in the world, the question would be if they're under Hazou's chain of command or Sasuke's?
I think in that regard we all agree.