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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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What are Akatsuki's going rates again?

Was that 23 milion ryo for land clearing mission figure pure profit or was it just the income?
 
QTesseract said:
The other two seem like fairly simple Second Strike game theory
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Google tells me this is MAD stuff. I don't understand how they relate. Could you elaborate?

EDIT: I think my main concern is that, if I were Hiashi, I would feel that I could not allow the precedent of letting myself get threatened like that be established.
My brain parses this scenario a bit like 'negotiation with terrorists'. If I (Hiashi) show them that I am susceptible to this, what will they use this threat to get out of my next? Or the time after?
And - should they proclaim this publicly and get away with it - they might just kill the Uchiha themselves, just to have a reason for war.
 
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QTesseract said:
Alright, looks like there's an actual need.

I'll be hosting the document here; I'll be trying to keep it alphabetical. Feel free to let me know if there's a plan category you'd like included that isn't; this is super preliminary.
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I'm all for receiving any pings. I have workload of 12h/day and would be relieved to be pinged on any topic poster deems interesting for me. Even if it isn't

Esryok said:
Is... is that something 13th century Japan could do anything with?
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Sure, they can throw it back at us in Reasonable disgust and swear eternal vengenance for such irredimable insult.

Wait, you meant impregnating someone? Probably no.
 
So, a significant part of the thread thinks it likely that Snake and Orochimaru are related. @faflec, @Vecht, @MadScientist, how do you feel about modifying your plans to include the following?:
  • Evening: Dinner with Snake, Team Nakano, and Yudai.
    • Beforehand: Ask Mari to keep an eye on Snake. She seems interested in associating with us; we need allies. How trustworthy does she seem?
Orochimaru was supposed to be fairly asocial; it's plausible that Mari may beat his (her?) Deceit with some prompting.

Suggestions for organic conversation topics that would "incidentally" make it harder for Orochimaru to stay undercover are welcome. Reminiscing about Jiraiya is a good start; can we do better?
 
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Torpling said:
Google tells me this is MAD stuff. I don't understand how they relate. Could you elaborate?

EDIT: I think my main concern is that, if I were Hiashi, I would feel that I could not allow the precedent of letting myself get threatened like that be established.
My brain parses this scenario a bit like 'negotiation with terrorists'. If I (Hiashi) show them that I am susceptible to this, what will they use this threat to get out of my next? Or the time after?
And - should they proclaim this publicly and get away with it - they might just kill the Uchiha themselves, just to have a reason for war.
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A second strike in MAD is a way to prevent a first strike. If you don't have second strike capabilities, a strong enough opponent can strike first and, in theory, take you out without you being able to retaliate in kind. Needless to say, this makes MAD a rather riskier assumption, because you're correspondingly less able to assure their destruction should they attack you.

In this case, I am proposing that these other clans pledging against Hiashi should he wipe out the Uchiha are a form of second strike - that is, he might be able to wipe out the Uchiha thoroughly enough that they cannot retaliate in kind, but with this in place he would no longer be able to avoid the response he would get had he struck at the Uchiha and failed.

The equivalence I am attempting to draw is one with RL nuclear standoffs, in which second strike capabilities were an escalation, but did not, in fact, cause a nuclear exchange themselves; it's hard to say how much of that is anthropic principle / selection bias, but it's my understanding that they didn't nearly trigger an exchange either. Unless we seriously fuck it up, it should be entirely possible to inform Hiashi of our precommitment without triggering it, especially given that we've already seen how he behaves in a MAD scenario (see: Nagi Island) and thus have a good idea of how he will behave.


It is a lot like negotiating with terrorists, but the important thing to remember about "we will not negotiate with terrorists" is that it's almost always a lie, and pretty much everyone who says that and is in a position to do so will or already has done so.
 
Noumero said:
So, a significant part of the thread thinks it likely that Snake and Orochimaru are related. @faflec, @Vecht, @MadScientist, how do you feel about modifying your plans to include the following?:
  • Evening: Dinner with Snake, Team Nakano, and Yudai.
    • Beforehand: Ask Mari to keep an eye on Snake. She seems interested in associating with us; we need allies. How trustworthy does she seem?
Orochimaru was supposed to be fairly asocial; it's plausible that Mari may beat his (her?) Deceit with some prompting.

Suggestions for organic conversation topics that would "incidentally" make it harder for Orochimaru to stay undercover are welcome. Reminiscing about Jiraiya is a good start; can we do better?
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Done, mostly. I didn't ask about her trustworthiness so much as asked her what she knew about her.
faflec said:
Word Count: 160

[X] Action Plan: Representation
  • Afternoon: Clan meeting on politics.
    • Propose changes to the Uchiha deal. Send Mari off to finalize the deals.
      • Hagoromo: Accept the deal as-is, it's fine.
      • Uchiha: Accept IFF key contentions are solved, otherwise decline.
    • Can we use civilian influence to flip another vote? Ami's speech earlier suggests it could be worthwhile. Maybe there's a clan that has economic interests requiring skilled civilians?
  • Evening: Dinner with Snake, Team Nakano, and Yudai.
    • Beforehand: Ask Mari to keep an eye on Snake. She seems interested in associating with us; we need allies. What does she know about her?
    • Carefully introduce Kagome to Nakano and co..
    • Discuss the recent Sealing failure.
      • Are their families and friends alright?
      • If not, is there anything we can do for them?
    • Ask Snake about her time with Jiraiya. Listen to her stories and reminisce a little.
    • Discuss retainership concept to Team Nakano and Yudai: Not formal adoption, formalized contractors-with-benefits.
      • Possible benefits:
        • Sealing knowledge.
        • Custom seal requests.
        • Medic-nin assistance.
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Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 5, 2019 at 3:57 PM, finished with 320 posts and 18 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 5, 2019 at 3:57 PM, finished with 320 posts and 18 votes.
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@Noumero done:


MadScientist said:
[X] Action Plan: Counterproposals
  • Afternoon: Clan meeting on politics.
    • "Mari, you said the Uchiha were scared for their survival if they voted against Hyuuga. That sounds important."
      • We may be able to offer them protection instead of babies.
      • If they're scared of financial ruin: we can give them a treaty that we'll cover the costs of anything that plausibly looks like a Hyuuga-caused economic attack.
      • If they're scared of assassins: we could supply them with anti-byakkugan seals to remove Hyuuga assassins advantages in their compound. We can also offer a military defensive pact (and we may be able to convince our political allies to join). If multiple clans privately precommit to Hiashi to murdering the Hyuuga if the Uchiha all mysteriously die one night...
    • If we need to offer babies:
      • We need to ensure the relationships are consensual, that any births are at a healthy rate, and that the women (and Hazou) retain access to their children and the right to be majorly involved in raising them.
      • We want any children born under this scheme (as well as Gouketsu children with sharingans) to be dual-clan, not just Uchiha. Such children would be extremely powerful due to having both clan's secrets, and this protects clan secrets and also this partially merges the clans. Uchiha may be the primary (but not only) chain of command unless such a child petitions for Gouketsu to be primary after reaching the rank of chunin.
    • Can we use civilian influence to flip another vote? Ami's speech earlier suggests it could be worthwhile. Maybe there's a clan that has economic interests requiring skilled civilians?
  • Evening: Dinner with Snake, Team Nakano, and Yudai.
    • Beforehand: Ask Mari to keep an eye on Snake. She seems interested in associating with us; we need allies. How trustworthy does she seem?
    • Carefully introduce Kagome to Nakano and co..
    • Discuss the recent Sealing failure.
      • Are their families and friends alright?
      • If not, is there anything we can do for them?
    • Ask Snake about her time with Jiraiya. Listen to her stories and reminisce a little.
    • Discuss retainership concept to Team Nakano and Yudai: Not formal adoption, formalized contractors-with-benefits.
      • Possible benefits:
        • Sealing knowledge.
        • Custom seal requests.
        • Medic-nin assistance.
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Inserted tally

May I tempt any Rejection and Counteroffer voters to vote also for Counterproposals?
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 5, 2019 at 3:57 PM, finished with 320 posts and 18 votes.
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Rihaku said:
The QM wording of contracts ("The Hagoromo will vote... for the candidate of the Goketsu's choice," not "The Hagoromo will vote for Asuma") seems to weakly imply that this could be a valid path to take.
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It may be wise to prepare the ground with Asuma and Choza to avoid being seen to be selling out their trust. Perhaps establish what they'd want to secure their Clan's safety in the new Hyuuga Konoha. The Jounin-Commander and (presumably) the Anbu-Commander post is vacant for example. Putting either in important village posts could protect them from assassination by mission desk and give them leverage to protect their allied clans (us).
 
[x] Action Plan: Representation
[x] Action Plan: Counterproposals

Not really opposed to entertaining alternatives as long as we're not rejecting the deal in absence of workable ones. @MadScientist, any chance you could replace this—
MadScientist said:
  • If we need to offer babies:
    • We need to ensure the relationships are consensual, that any births are at a healthy rate, and that the women (and Hazou) retain access to their children and the right to be majorly involved in raising them.
    • We want any children born under this scheme (as well as Gouketsu children with sharingans) to be dual-clan, not just Uchiha. Such children would be extremely powerful due to having both clan's secrets, and this protects clan secrets and also this partially merges the clans. Uchiha may be the primary (but not only) chain of command unless such a child petitions for Gouketsu to be primary after reaching the rank of chunin.
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—with a simple link to this? Key points seem to be the same, but the version in the link is more developed.
MMKII said:
@Noumero

Well played.
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Xanatos Gambits are the best.
 
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I suspect that the most likely way the duel clanship thing will work is by having the kids marry into the Uchiha when they become Ninja.

I also suspect that is very much what you do not want to have happen.
 
Kiba said:
I am not a medieval lawyer, but it is something new that never had been done before.
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*to your knowledge.

Byzantine279 said:
I suspect that the most likely way the duel clanship thing will work is by having the kids marry into the Uchiha when they become Ninja.

I also suspect that is very much what you do not want to have happen.
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Kei is in a dual-clanship right now. When she married, she did not become a pure Nara. Therefore, dual-clanship as a permanent legal status already exists as something we can specify in contracts.
 
MadScientist said:
Kei is in a dual-clanship right now. When she married, she did not become a pure Nara. Therefore, dual-clanship as a permanent legal status already exists as something we can specify in contracts.
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...That's exactly what I said. They are going to have our kids marry into the Uchiha, because that is how it has been done previously. Which I suspect is very much not want you were after.

Keiko was not offered an option to join the Nara while remaining a Goketsu without marrying anyone, and you seem to be missing that is how what you are proposing will be taken - as an offer to marry all of them into the Uchiha as soon as feasible.
 
Byzantine279 said:
...That's exactly what I said. They are going to have our kids marry into the Uchiha, because that is how it has been done previously. Which I suspect is very much not want you were after.
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Kiba said:
Which, as far as we know, only applied to marriage, not adopted kids.
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I believe that @MadScientist's point is that the legal status of being a member of two clans exists. The fact that this status currently could only be acquired by marrying into another clan is a different matter entirely, and a much more mutable one.
 
Kiba said:
Which, as far as we know, only applied to marriage, not adopted kids.
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Kiba, unless you can give me an in-text citation saying that this legal-status can only apply to marriages, then I'm going to have to respond with "And who's going to tell two noble clans who they may or may not apply this pre-existing legal status to?"

Byzantine279 said:
...That's exactly what I said.
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No it isn't.

When Kei was betrothed to the Nara she was a pure Gouketsu. After marriage she was a Nara-Gouketsu. At no point was she in a dual-clanship whilst also awaiting marrying into the Nara.

My proposal is very clear that these children will be born with dual-clanship status, and that this status will continue all their lives unless changed by other leal agreements.
 
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