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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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TarzanNn said:
Yes please, by which I mean

[X] Action Plan: Please No
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This seems to be faflec's plan, but with a lot of framing about how "Nononono this is unacceptable!"

(I kid, I kid. No one is being a Lemongrab :p)

MadScientist said:
  • Uchiha deal:
    • We are not comfortable with this for a whole host of reasons. There are consent issues, a squicky power dynamic, negative impacts on the mental health and social reputation of everyone involved -- especially the children, Hazou would want his children to have the option of being Gouketsu should they so desire, it's undesirable to give the Uchiha the Iron Nerve if they won't let Gouketsu have Sharingans, and HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!
    • At the very least this needs to be thouroughly discussed at an all-clan meeting, probably multiple meetings, Naruto included.
  • What can we do to vassalise the Uchiha clan without impregnating anyone?
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Modulo that they're pretty much the same plan. I don't see the above as being reasonable phrasing on the objections. I think its going to lead to a "Oh Hazou, you sweet naive summer child." moment, and a lot of confirmation that, yes, this is still a good deal.

It's particularly the "HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!" bit. I see this as both a complete non-issue due to the "3 years later" aspect of the deal and also because I have it on good faith that pretty much no one is ready to be a parent the first go around -- you love the kiddos and figure the rest out along the way (and with an appropriate amount of sleep deprivation). That, and this is going to earn us a lot of sideeye in universe. Hana had Hazou around the age of 17-18ish.

In many negotiations you often have to be very careful with how you signal things. Saying "No" is often tantamount to signalling outright rejection of the deal. We aren't opposed to the deal, the majority are opposed to half a dozen concerning trappings of the deal and only a vocal minority (whose opinions I respect and also find both interesting, informative, and in a sense very compelling) of folks are objecting to this straight out.

I think it would be far more beneficial to string them along with an initial remark ("Yes, I like the deal, but I would like to change these minor details (which are not actually minor) please."), see if they budge at all, and if they do or don't budge we go through Naruto to arrange a meeting with Sasuke at the local bowling alley and talk shop there while feeling each other out. It is entirely possible that we have something to offer them that will negate all the inherent wrongbadness of the deal.

We have an armor jutsu, something they should be capable of figuring out based on descriptions of how we did in the exams-- they at least should be able to piece together that its likely not "Iron Nerve bullshit" that let us do that. We have mountains of seals and get more by the minute-- we can share these with them instead of selling our future progeny. As much as it pains me to say, we can even lobby that they be given the Snake or Dog scroll as a bargaining chip, as long as we get the rest of the alliance on board here.

There are countless things we can do to get them to budge on a lot of the more objectionable facets here. Lets explore our options.

Edit: Spelling and grammar mistakes ahoy along with some clarification
 
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MMKII said:
This seems to be faflec's plan, but with a lot of framing about how "Nononono this is unacceptable!"

(I kid, I kid. No one is being a Lemongrab :p)



Modulo that they're pretty much the same plan. I don't see the above as being reasonable phrasing on the objections. I think its going to lead to a "Oh Hazou, you sweet naive summer child." moment, and a lot of confirmation that, yes, this is still a good deal.

It's particularly the "HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!" bit. I see this as both a complete non-issue due to the "3 years later" aspect of the deal and also because I have it on good faith that pretty much no one is ready to be a parent the first go around -- you love the kiddos and figure the rest out along the way (and with an appropriate amount of sleep deprivation). That, and this is going to earn us a lot of sideeye in universe. Hana had Hazou around the age of 17-18ish.

In many negotiations you often have to be very careful with how you signal things. Saying "No" is often tantamount to signalling outright rejection of the deal. We aren't opposed to the deal, the majority are opposed to half a dozen concerning trappings of the deal and only a vocal minority (whose opinions I respect and also find both interesting, informative, and in a sense very compelling) of folks are objecting to this straight out.

I think it would be far more beneficial to string them along with an initial remark ("Yes, I like the deal, but I would like to change these minor details (which are not actually minor) please."), see if they budge at all, and if they do or don't budge we go through Naruto to arrange a meeting with Sasuke at the local bowling alley and talk shop there while feeling each other out. It is entirely possible that we have something to offer them that will negate all the inherent wrongbadness of the deal.

We have an armor jutsu, something they should be capable of figuring out based on descriptions of how we did in the exams-- they at least should be able to piece together that its likely not "Iron Nerve bullshit" that let us do that. We have mountains of seals and get more by the minute-- we can share these with them instead of our future progeny. As much as it pains me to say, we can even lobby that they be given the Snake or Dog scroll as a bargaining chip, as long as we get the rest of the alliance on board here.

There are countless things we can do to get them to budge on a lot of the more objectionable facets here. Lets explore our options.
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Aren't the Goketsu bound by threat of enraged murdertank not to share the pangolin jutsus? Are the Goketsu even still authorized to know them now that Keiko is a Nara?
 
Lailoken said:
Aren't the Goketsu bound by threat of enraged murdertank not to share the pangolin jutsus? Are the Goketsu even still authorized to know them now that Keiko is a Nara?
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Yes, they probably cannot share the pangolin jutsus.

You can't unknow something. The Pangolins knew that when they authorized Team Uplift to learn their secret jutsus. If they want Team Uplift to somehow unknow the jutsus, they've got to explain how that's going to be achieved.
 
Lailoken said:
Aren't the Goketsu bound by threat of enraged murdertank not to share the pangolin jutsus? Are the Goketsu even still authorized to know them now that Keiko is a Nara?
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The deal is with the Gouketsu Clan. Assuming it keeps up, then every ninja in the family/clan can learn the techniques. Assuming they can't keep it up... well, I'm not given to believe that the Pangolins are super well liked on the 7th Path. I'm not really sure what they could do to us, given that the black market price on Hazou's head is probably already ludicrously high. As per the Uchiha deal:

One out here is "Teach the Uchiha this anyway because Hazou has the Chronic Backstabbing disorder, and also because fuck the Pangolins."

Another out is "The kiddos will have dual membership of both clans and be raised equally by both clans so that they will have our OP secret bullshit too. Sound good Uchiha?"
 
MMKII said:
This seems to be faflec's plan, but with a lot of framing about how "Nononono this is unacceptable!"

(I kid, I kid. No one is being a Lemongrab :p)



Modulo that they're pretty much the same plan. I don't see the above as being reasonable phrasing on the objections. I think its going to lead to a "Oh Hazou, you sweet naive summer child." moment, and a lot of confirmation that, yes, this is still a good deal.

It's particularly the "HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!" bit. I see this as both a complete non-issue due to the "3 years later" aspect of the deal and also because I have it on good faith that pretty much no one is ready to be a parent the first go around -- you love the kiddos and figure the rest out along the way (and with an appropriate amount of sleep deprivation). That, and this is going to earn us a lot of sideeye in universe. Hana had Hazou around the age of 17-18ish.

In many negotiations you often have to be very careful with how you signal things. Saying "No" is often tantamount to signalling outright rejection of the deal. We aren't opposed to the deal, the majority are opposed to half a dozen concerning trappings of the deal and only a vocal minority (whose opinions I respect and also find both interesting, informative, and in a sense very compelling) of folks are objecting to this straight out.

I think it would be far more beneficial to string them along with an initial remark ("Yes, I like the deal, but I would like to change these minor details (which are not actually minor) please."), see if they budge at all, and if they do or don't budge we go through Naruto to arrange a meeting with Sasuke at the local bowling alley and talk shop there while feeling each other out. It is entirely possible that we have something to offer them that will negate all the inherent wrongbadness of the deal.

We have an armor jutsu, something they should be capable of figuring out based on descriptions of how we did in the exams-- they at least should be able to piece together that its likely not "Iron Nerve bullshit" that let us do that. We have mountains of seals and get more by the minute-- we can share these with them instead of our future progeny. As much as it pains me to say, we can even lobby that they be given the Snake or Dog scroll as a bargaining chip, as long as we get the rest of the alliance on board here.

There are countless things we can do to get them to budge on a lot of the more objectionable facets here. Lets explore our options.
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The problem is that nothing we have is on par of the Uchiha having a bunch of Sharingan using ninja, nothing.
Armor jutsu?They don't have the ninja.
Seals?They don't have the ninja.
Snake or Dog Scroll? They don't have the ninja.
Their problem is a basic one that cannot be changed, and they are probably elitist enough to refuse clanless ninja
They are desperate enough to propose the deal, they will want the children, full stop, unless we kill them or force them to refuse the deal.

As long as we don't pull another "Ami Date" and do everything on our own, again, and piss everyone off because they are not NPC(Technically they are, but you get my point) while losing all their input.
Also change the deal so we don't risk losing our ...legal?Born from our future wife? Child, or even Hazou himself because they awakened the Sharingan(Or, if we find out of to awaken the Sharingan, the other children of Goketsu).
 
[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal

Not entirely happy that we inquire about the Uchiha deal on the one hand but then seem to give tentantive agreement without updating our decision anyway?

Or is this referring to the Hagoromo deal instead only?
 
Lord Marshal said:
The problem is that nothing we have is on par of the Uchiha having a bunch of Sharingan using ninja, nothing.
Armor jutsu?They don't have the ninja.
Seals?They don't have the ninja.
Snake or Dog Scroll? They don't have the ninja.
Their problem is a basic one that cannot be changed, and they are probably elitist enough to refuse clanless ninja
They are desperate enough to propose the deal, they will want the children, full stop, unless we kill them or force them to refuse the deal.
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This is only an insurmountable problem IFF you're adamantly opposed to--in some way-- getting them more ninja.

Personally, I don't really care about the last name. If we can bargain for "They're a member of both families for all intents and purposes." then thats perfectly fine for me. It's more or less what we do in our world-- many folks spend absurd amounts of time in their childhood at both grandparent's/uncle+aunt's houses.
 
Tua said:
[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal

Not entirely happy that we inquire about the Uchiha deal on the one hand but then seem to give tentantive agreement without updating our decision anyway?

Or is this referring to the Hagoromo deal instead only?
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It's stated that our agreement is non-finalized, with the implication being that it's not finalized because of the things we listed above that. I can make it more explicit that we're not signing yet because of these things, if that works?
 
MMKII said:
This is only an insurmountable problem IFF you're adamantly opposed to--in some way-- getting them more ninja.

Personally, I don't really care about the last name. If we can bargain for "They're a member of both families for all intents and purposes." then thats perfectly fine for me. It's more or less what we do in our world-- many folks spend absurd amounts of time in their childhood at both grandparent's/uncle+aunt's houses.
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You noted that was possible to resolve the deal in another way, i simply noted the problems with said reasoning.
My point is that you cannot convince them to stop the deal with something less than the children, because everything else we can offer depends from the basic currency everyone uses in this world, and that currency is ninja.
Other ways to obtain ninjas are possible, but the Uchiha are elitist, so they won't.

"The children we are going to sell can be also Goketsu" is true, but it's irrelevant to your previous point.

faflec said:
It's stated that our agreement is non-finalized, with the implication being that it's not finalized because of the things we listed above that. I can make it more explicit that we're not signing yet because of these things, if that works?
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faflec said:
Yes.

...should we meet with the clan? I'm OK with scheduling a meeting with the rest of them, even if I don't personally agree. Like for YES, Hugs for NO.
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The idea was to not pull another Ami date(Only worse) and treat the other as useless NPC, when this is something that personally influence them, therefore no accepting the deal before a clan meeting with them and Naruto(Keiko could or could not be there), for both opinion and insights(And OOC to give us more time to see if there are other problems, like "Uchiha steal Hazou legal sons because they have a sharigans, ect"), with the current plan, if they accept, we would still do this completely alone, without asking anything to our own family, again.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
The idea was to not pull another Ami date(Only worse) and treat the other as useless NPC, when this is something that personally influence them, therefore no accepting the deal before a clan meeting with them and Naruto(Keiko could or could not be there), for both opinion and insights(And OOC to give us more time to see if there are other problems, like "Uchiha steal Hazou legal sons because they have a sharigans, ect"), with the current plan, if they accept, we would still do this completely alone, without asking anything to our own family, again.
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...fuck, I forgot about that. How the fuck did I forget about that?

Give me a bit.
 
I feel like the Please No plan is a bit too panicky and absolute for my tastes right now. Both of the top plans "in favor" of the deal are by faflec and neither is about actually signing the agreement. In either case, nothing stops us from changing our minds next update, or from having our concerns be presented as deal breakers, or from meeting Sasuke in person, or from asking Mari to devise a counter-deal where we ask less and offer less.

eaglejarl said:
Also the revenue is flowing from the Uchiha to you, so I would imagine you hope it to be a major portion.
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You misunderstood me. I meant that if Gokētsu revenue by then is so low that those 5% of Uchiha income will still be considered a significant part of our clan's income, then that means that even after so many years of our money making schemes being in action we are still poorer than them. Which means that multiple things must have gone very wrong.
 
MMKII said:
It's more or less what we do in our world-- many folks spend absurd amounts of time in their childhood at both grandparent's/uncle+aunt's houses.
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In our world, grandparents, aunts, and uncles do not have lifelong authority to give military orders to their adorable family members.
 
Alright, clan meeting to discuss the Uchiha and Hagoromo deals. For the first quoted plan, I'm putting said meeting at the same time we discuss the Yakuza.
faflec said:
Word Count: 297

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • We're tentatively in agreement, but want a clan meeting to discuss this.
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, like irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Learn more about the refugees. Consider adopting/minionizing those with political connections or useful skills like carpentry.
  • Check the casualty list for people we know, like Honoka.
  • Invite Shikamaru to breakfast later this week.
    • Subject: Nara Rebuilding/Construction Assistance
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Ask them to bring some honeyed apples for Kagome; he'd love them.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching, etc.; they'd supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff when we need it.
    • Let Kagome bring up Sealing teaching; he'd be their teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • We could sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
    • Discuss the Uchiha & Hagoromo deals.
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
  • Contingency: if encounter Ami, spend the favour as discussed.
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faflec said:
Yeah...I ended up cutting almost everything from the old plan to make room for the Mari discussion. It would be a mite unfair for such major changes to happen...so I just made another plan.
Word Count: 291

[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • We're tentatively in agreement, but want a clan meeting to discuss this.
  • The Mari situation:
    • Thoughts:
      • TLitF's exact mechanics and her eye color changing appear to be related. Whenever she's used TLitF in the past, her eyes changed (grey to blue to green).
      • Since her 'recovery', her eyes've changed color rapidly: green to brown to purple to green.
      • TLitF's 'price' has been implied to negatively affect her mind. Could it be related to her recovery?
    • Tomorrow morning, discuss with Noburi & Akane (high-security room).
      • Akane: What happened in Leaf while we were gone? Anything related to Mari?
      • Fill them in fully, including our thoughts and private conversations with Mari.
        • Note: TLitF might get us killbox'd. Don't spread the information around.
      • Ask their thoughts. Surely she isn't acting against our interests, but you're worried she's running some self-sacrificial ploy...unless TLitF makes her temporarily sociopathic? You're unsure; did she act a bit off after Tea?
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, such as irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Send invitations for later this week:
    • Shikamaru: Discuss Nara rebuilding/construction assistance.
    • Team Nakano & Jinno: Make them retainers
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
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Lord Marshal said:
You noted that was possible to resolve the deal in another way, i simply noted the problems with said reasoning.
My point is that you cannot convince them to stop the deal with something less than the children, because everything else we can offer depends from the basic currency everyone uses in this world, and that currency is ninja.
Other ways to obtain ninjas are possible, but the Uchiha are elitist, so they won't.

"The children we are going to sell can be also Goketsu" is true, but it's irrelevant to your previous point.
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No, its not quite irrelevant FMPOV.

I noted that we have unexplored options and avenues that we can take to alter the deal to be in our favor, and suggested that we explore them before outright stating that its unfavorable.

If you don't mind, here is one of the problems I see with the reasoning in your response, assuming I read it correctly:

You seem to assume that it is as clear cut as "This is all well and good, but your options are useless to them unless they literally own our kids." The problem with that is that this need not be the case for a variety of reasons. The issue need not be as dichotomous as that

For one, its entirely possible --and even quite likely --that Sasuke or someone else will *also* be fathering dozens of children over the course of the next couple years. Perhaps they would prefer Summon scroll techniques, seals, or an armor jutsu to keep said munchkins safe and powerful rather than acquire twice the amount of munchkins?


As a quasi-relevant ( to this remark namely, but I'm certainly not trying to single you out or imply that you're hardline doing the following or something like that, just raising possibilities )aside, my 1 year-ish tenure with the thread has taught me that the following is true on average: Its far more likely that , in a discussion between Person A and Person B, something that might seem like a strange and illogical double down or an otherwise illogical/irrelevant post is often a result of Person A misunderstanding something about the situation. Often said misunderstanding is in the set of

{situational specifics, viewing Person B's opinion on X as a declarative suggestion as opposed to vague spitballing, misunderstanding Person B's position, a fact that is obvious to Person B but not obvious to everyone else, a particular reading of Person A's own statement that implies something they weren't trying to say, not having a full grasp on the secondary implications of Person B's position, etc etc }.

Ditto for Person B misunderstanding Person A. Though we do also on average have a lot of actual disagreements that arise -- be they over conclusions or the methods and step-by-step from which they were conjured or whatever-- oftentimes they're those pesky misunderstanding that are masquerading as disagreements. I think it helps a lot to try to have a charitable discussion about the particulars of a post and why someone thinks that way, since invariably they have a good reason for doing so and I want to understand why.

Usually its because I'm the one being the dummy (and to a rather humorous degree) in that situation.

Edit: Also if I happened to do just that in some majorly ironic way, DOH! I've just woken up, sorry.


As a further aside @Lord Marshal (since I don't think anyone's commented on this; I also mean the following completely sincerely , just to clarify) but your post formatting has gotten a lot better since whenever it was pointed out a while back. I appreciate it a bunch.
 
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MMKII said:
No, its not quite irrelevant FMPOV.

I noted that we have unexplored options and avenues that we can take to alter the deal to be in our favor, and suggested that we explore them before outright stating that its unfavorable.

If you don't mind, here is one of the problems I see with the reasoning in your response, assuming I read it correctly:

You seem to assume that it is as clear cut as "This is all well and good, but your options are useless to them unless they literally own our kids." The problem with that is that this need not be the case for a variety of reasons. The issue need not be as dichotomous as that

For one, its entirely possible --and even quite likely --that Sasuke or someone else will *also* be fathering dozens of children over the course of the next couple years. Perhaps they would prefer Summon scroll techniques, seals, or an armor jutsu to keep said munchkins safe and powerful rather than acquire twice the amount of munchkins?
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Fair enough, i did not consider the fact that Sasuke could be fathering dozens of children on his own; but i would like to add that this is an unknown variable, as we don't know what Sasuke is going to do.
Why did they even contacted us with such desperate offer, if Sasuke could just do it in our stead? All these people would surely have the Sharingan, so it's far more sensible asking him than us.
If they have other places from which obtain children, your reasoning becomes far more sensible, but if they don't(As the desperation of such request would show), all the other things we can offer them becomes useless, because no one can actually use them.


MMKII said:
As a quasi-relevant ( to this remark namely, but I'm certainly not trying to single you out or imply that you're hardline doing the following or something like that, just raising possibilities )aside, my 1 year-ish tenure with the thread has taught me that the following is true on average: Its far more likely that , in a discussion between Person A and Person B, something that might seem like a strange and illogical double down or an otherwise illogical/irrelevant post is often a result of Person A misunderstanding something about the situation. Often said misunderstanding is in the set of

{situational specifics, viewing Person B's opinion on X as a declarative suggestion as opposed to vague spitballing, misunderstanding Person B's position, a fact that is obvious to Person B but not obvious to everyone else, a particular reading of Person A's own statement that implies something they weren't trying to say, not having a full grasp on the secondary implications of Person B's position, etc etc }.

Ditto for Person B misunderstanding Person A. Though we do also on average have a lot of actual disagreements that arise -- be they over conclusions or the methods and step-by-step from which they were conjured or whatever-- oftentimes they're those pesky misunderstanding that are masquerading as disagreements. I think it helps a lot to try to have a charitable discussion about the particulars of a post and why someone thinks that way, since invariably they have a good reason for doing so and I want to understand why.

Usually its because I'm the one being the dummy (and to a rather humorous degree) in that situation.

Edit: Also if I happened to do just that in some majorly ironic way, DOH! I've just woken up, sorry.
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Communication is maddening in the best of circumstances, and a thread on the internet where people from different cultures write their opinions(under a time-limit) is not the "best of circumstances".
Misunderstanding and disagreements are inevitable, the important things is good faith and being willing to understand the other, coupled with being willing to say sorry when it's needed.

Oh, and having as objective making Hazou an omnipotent acasual immortal multidimensional god, everyone that doesn't follow this will receive a ban-hammer to the face.
I'm joking, of course.

MMKII said:
As a further aside @Lord Marshal (since I don't think anyone's commented on this; I also mean the following completely sincerely , just to clarify) but your post formatting has gotten a lot better since whenever it was pointed out a while back. I appreciate it a bunch.
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Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be capable of participating in a better and more clear way, without the thread input i wouldn't have improved so much.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
Why did they even contacted us with such desperate offer, if Sasuke could just do it in our stead?
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IMO its entirely possible they do want "100 (minus natural attrition rate) capable ninja" in the near future, but I don't think they know that "50 ninja or so in the next decade that are essentially unkillable compared to their peers" is even an option on the table.

(That being a massive oversimplification, but thats the direction along which I'm thinking on that particular facet.)

I don't really know what their preferences would be or why the deal is what it is at the moment, but I definitely think we should investigate a bit more. It's entirely possible that Mari is negotiating with the Uchiha Elders/the civilian regent, and that they have a drastically different opinion than Sasuke actually has on the matter or something. Regardless, we would benefit a bunch from devoting some time to figuring that out (perhaps arrange a meeting with Naruto as the intermediary to make the introductions and observe) in addition to the rest of our plate.
 
Esryok said:
It assumes we'll take exactly as many missions as necessary to get the full bonus. Based on Radvic's estimates for mission pay (divided by a factor of 12.19 to account for the latest #s on civilian subsistence) I suspect we usually will fall short of that, except during months where Naruto does an A(+)-rank.
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Kiba said:
I think that is an unwarranted assumption?
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Indeed. We now know that Till'n'fill missions earn R500-R2000, and that R42,400 is considered subsistence level for ninjas.

I'm uncertain why you'd divide the estimate by 12.19. Subsistence for a farmer was estimated to be R4240, which would come out to R11.6 each day, which is a factor of ~12.9 - so I assume the 1 in the tenths place was an error, and the 9 should be shifted one place to the left. That being said, that's per farmer, not per skilled laborer - and the skilled laborers were estimated to comprise between 83% and 90% of the civilian population, and be distinctly more well off than the farmers, though they still lived in "a hovel with low quality food."

@Radvic's estimate there had no knowledge about the 80% tax rate on missions, the tax refund to clans, or the 50% bonus to clans, that the refund and bonuses come from the Tower, and that civilians (presumably) have comparatively high tax rates (the estimate assumed 10% to the ninja fund).

Putting those highly important details aside, Radvic estimated there that 1 day of skilled labor was R150, and that means the average skilled civilian laborer makes R54,750 annually - nearly 25% more than the subsistence level for a ninja - but also estimated that the average ninja should make 5x the average skilled laborer (while acknowledging that this is misleading because most ninja are genin). That D Rank missions were recompensed at R20/hour/ninja. That C Rank missions were worth 600 days of skilled labor (R90,000), that B Rank missions were worth 4900 days of skilled labor (R735,000), and that A Rank missions were worth 38,900 days of skilled labor (R5,835,000). Dividing those by 12.9, you'd have D Ranks at R1.6/hour, C Ranks at R6,977, B Ranks at R57,977, and A Ranks at R452,326.

D Ranks costs under that measure wouldn't make any sense next to Till'n'fills, unless they're merely examples of conspicuous consumption/training for Genin, though we haven't seen much of an indication for that

So while certainly valuable when written 23 months ago, given the more recent information the numbers are ostensibly just incorrect.

We have in context of the Quest that a Till'n'fill would not be profitable if more than two explosive seals are used, that Till'n'fills pay R500-R2000, and that from a QM infopost that genin seals (like explosive seals, presumably) are worth R250 - so two being worth R500 and more than that making a Till'n'fill no longer profitable is consistent.

Now, what exactly is a Till'n'fill?

eaglejarl said:
Not a lot of money, but it's light work. Good for people who are convalescing, or for anyone who wants to pick up a little extra pocket change."
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Seems to only take a few hours, definitely not the R20/hour (or R1.6/ hour) that Radvic estimated D Rank missions are worth. It would take 25 hours on a D Rank to compare with the lower bound of a Till'n'fill of only a few hours work.

All of that being said, I don't think the QMs have figured out how much mission pay is, even though they have the tax rate for them determined.

If they have, @eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail can you share the information? If you can spare the spoons.

If you have rough numbers and want us to run them to find something reasonable and consistent I think plenty of people here would be willing to give it a shot and give you the opportunity to offload some cutlery.
 
Raxner said:
What do you think, @eaglejarl? Would Sasuke contest this point, if Hazo developed the Spinny Eye?
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HDK


Ipsos Custodes said:
the skilled laborers were estimated to comprise between 83% and 90% of the civilian population, and be distinctly more well off than the farmers, though they still lived in "a hovel with low quality food."
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Farmers are the overwhelming majority of the civilian population.

Ipsos Custodes said:
I don't think the QMs have figured out how much mission pay is, even though they have the tax rate for them determined.
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Sadly, this is correct.
 
Lord Marshal said:
Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be capable of participating in a better and more clear way, without the thread input i wouldn't have improved so much.
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If I may offer my input, I think the one remaining idiosyncrasy in your style is the way you format paragraphs.

Traditionally, people divide paragraphs by two newline characters, and don't use them within paragraphs. Like so:

[Paragraph 1:] Sentence 1. Sentence 2. Sentence 3.

[Paragraph 2] Sentence 4.

[Paragraph 3] Sentence 5. Sentence 6. Sentence 7.​

Whereas you frequently insert newline characters between sentences within paragraphs, and sometimes divide paragraphs by only one newline character. Like this:

[Paragraph 1:] Sentence 1. Sentence 2.
[Paragraph 1:] Sentence 3.

[Paragraph 2:] Sentence 4.
[Paragraph 3:] Sentence 5.
[Paragraph 3:] Sentence 6. Sentence 7.
​

For example, this post:
Fair enough, i did not consider the fact that Sasuke could be fathering dozens of children on his own; but i would like to add that this is an unknown variable, as we don't know what Sasuke is going to do.
Why did they even contacted us with such desperate offer, if Sasuke could just do it in our stead? All these people would surely have the Sharingan, so it's far more sensible asking him than us.
If they have other places from which obtain children, your reasoning becomes far more sensible, but if they don't(As the desperation of such request would show), all the other things we can offer them becomes useless, because no one can actually use them.
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More typically formatted, it could look, e. g., like this:
Fair enough, i did not consider the fact that Sasuke could be fathering dozens of children on his own; but i would like to add that this is an unknown variable, as we don't know what Sasuke is going to do.

Why did they even contacted us with such desperate offer, if Sasuke could just do it in our stead? All these people would surely have the Sharingan, so it's far more sensible asking him than us. If they have other places from which obtain children, your reasoning becomes far more sensible, but if they don't(As the desperation of such request would show), all the other things we can offer them becomes useless, because no one can actually use them.
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Just an observation.
 
Lord Marshal said:
Why did they even contacted us with such desperate offer, if Sasuke could just do it in our stead? All these people would surely have the Sharingan, so it's far more sensible asking him than us.
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Well, for one Sasuke should be 15-16 years old himself, so the option wasn't present till recently.

Also, one could speculate that it is not ninja numbers they want from the deal, but ensuring that they are

a) the only Clan with Sharingan, and

b) one of the two Leaf Clan having IN

In this scenario they probably already have a breeding programm and don't care that much about how many children they will get from us - their main concern would be to have all children we have born in Gouketsu. And the deal is as close as it gets.

I'm still confused about numbers of Uchiha ninjas. Iirc Jiraiya told us that Sasuke was the only ninja survivor and that was the reason for a civilian representative in the Council. However @eaglejarl recently said that there are other ninja as well,but than someone of those older-than-cousin chuunins would take the position, wouldn't they?

So what's the deal? Was it retconned? Did I misunderstood previous information? Did @eaglejarl made *shoked inhale* a mistake?
 
TarzanNn said:
So what's the deal? Was it retconned? Did I misunderstood previous information? Did @eaglejarl made *shoked inhale* a mistake?
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HDK.
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 2, 2019 at 11:33 AM, finished with 662 posts and 29 votes.
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[X] Action Plan: Please No

I kind of want to not get into another pangolin type issue here. And this time instead of Keiko screwing us over it might be Hazō himself. No thanks.
 
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