- Location
- Australia
He doesn't need to get the hat to have us executed for committing treason when we actually commit treason.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Ah, so somewhere we went from following the lawful orders of the Hokage to treason. Got it.
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- Australia
Because as has been repeatedly pointed out that doesn't fly
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
As was pointed out, he in fact invoked his authority as Hokage. Posthumous orders from the Hokage are still orders from the Hokage, until there's another Hokage to say otherwise.
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- Australia
As I pointed out, the rest of my points still stand. Edit: The authority of the Clan Council supersedes that of a dead Hokage and they can say otherwise.
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- Why would this be required?
You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying the clan isn't in a decent place, nor am I saying we shouldn't try for the scroll.
What I'm saying specifically is that just walking up to the tower, stretching Jiariya's final thoughts into a shaky, laughable claim to the snake scroll, and expecting the people guarding it to take it seriously is not only insanely ballsy, it's downright stupid. Plus, let's say this somehow works and Hazo actually does manage to convince a whole bunch of ANBU and high level bureaucrats with his bullshit and they give him the scroll, he's now slighted the rest of Konoha's clans and even if there isn't any direct retalation I sincerely doubt this won't hurt any positive reputation we've made and make most clans wary of the Goketsu, if not downright hostile.
It's a short sighted plan with long term consequences
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
Is that it then? Very well, I suppose I have no choice but to accept your concession.
Good discussion! Same time tomorrow?
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- Australia
Don't get snippy with me when you are ignoring my points.
- ANBU has no way of verifying that Jiraiya's will hasn't been tampered with since it has been unsealed and we can mimic handwriting.
- Jiraiya telling us we are allowed to keep being awesome doesn't give us the authority to appropriate Leaf assets or order other Leaf ninja around.
- If it did let us control Leaf assets then we could use it for basically everything and nobody is going to along with that.
- JIraiya is dead and no longer Hokage. The Clan Council currently rank higher than him since they are alive and their orders supercede Jiraiya's in regards to the scroll and its guards.
- The ANBU guarding the scroll will be from clans that also want the scroll and are going to be upset at our blatant powergrab
- Going behind the back of the Clan Council to appropriate village assets without their permission is going to make them really angry, even the ones that like us really aren't going to like the precedent.
- If we do this then Hiashi among others can easily claim we are faking legitimate authority and have us executed for treason.
- This is pretty much the worst time to spend social capital we don't have.
Even if the outcome is nothing it is still a waste of time, effort and reputation
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I will get snippy when and as I please, my good sir!
These points amount to "we might fail at getting the scroll." So what?
Also you refuse to acknowledge that Jiraiya did in fact use his authority as Hokage to essentially write us a blank check. I'm not arguing with you when you continue to insist that isn't the case.
Further:
To be fair, we won't know what it'll let us get away with until we try. Also, if it only works once, that's good enough.
If this isn't a baseless assertion on your part, where in the story or infodumps are you getting this?
Yes. I assert it's still more than worth it, and have faith we'll be able to more than recoup any losses on this front.
We are not faking it. We have legal orders from the Hokage. I grant that the interpretation is dubious (in the sense that it's going to be a tough sell to those not already inclined to believe us at face value), but interpreting a blank check differently from your political rivals is hardly treason.
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
- We're not a bunch of nameless hobos off the street. We're the former Hokage's clan. If we say that this is what's stated in the Hokage's will, they have to prove that it was tampered with.
- It does as long as we can convince other people that it does.
- Sure. We're not planning to try to do that, though. It's a one-time ploy, and we only need to convince a handful of ANBU, not the entire Leaf.
- You're assuming the Clan Council bothered to make any specific orders with regards to the Scroll. It's likely that the ANBU are just following a procedure for recovered assets, in which case the Hokage overrides them, recently deceased or not.
- Or they will have been recruited by Jiraiya for personal loyalty to him, and will be very willing to make concessions in the face of Jiraiya's wishes and his clanmates' demands.
- Again, it's not necessarily the Clan Council's direct will. Also, we are not "appropriating village assets", we're redistributing them within the village. We're a Leaf clan, we're not selling the scroll off to the Mizukage or whatever.
- Hiashi can and will claim a lot of things, no matter what we do. Will he be able to convince others that it's treason? Seems dubious at best.
- Nah, there were worse times.
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- Location
- America
[X] Action Plan: Speaking of Unity
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- Australia
Even if Jiraiya did write a blank check the clans aren't going to accept it. If Jiraiya wanted us to have a blank check then he had to a lot more than just telling us we could save the world. Among other things he would have had to send sealed orders to ANBU that they can verify putting us in charge of Leaf and somehow get the clans on side so they don't revoke the orders the second he is out of the picture. I maintain that interpretation is ridiculous.
Tracking down the post will take a while. IIRC There is a post where it is explained that the authority of the Hokage ultimately derives from the clans. The Clan Council has the authority to appoint and dismiss Hokages though the latter power is practically never used. I think it was also the same post that explained that the Clan Council also handles village decisions while the Hokage is away.
We might not be faking it but we can't prove that and we aren't the only ones that can stretch the truth.
We are former mist nin which is worse than a nameless hobo.
If ANBU accepts orders which can't be verified and the Hokage makes official orders that can't be verified then they both have terrible operating procedure.
The worst outcome is where we convince the ANBU but not the rest of the village because then at minimum we get some form of punishment and the ire of the clans even if they don't take the scroll back.
It is appropriating Leaf assets. If I take government property it isn't suddenly not stealing just because it stays inside the same nation.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, but nothing directly political, for the sake of QM sanity-checking spoons and plausibility both. Yes, it's a vague instruction, but then the question itself is very vague in its implications.
Please clarify.
Depends on the something. As above, it is very difficult for me to believe that any political activities (like talking to other clans) would not have resulted in a different Naruto scene.
- Location
- Australia
I might be confusing this with a different fanfic and have had some trouble finding that post if it exists. I did find
but that doesn't really clarify the issue.
@Velorien
Can we read whatever academy textbook explains the basic political structure of Leaf in the two days so this question can be resolved?
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
- Yes, we're former missing-nin, but no, we are also the former Hokage's clan. As long as we can convince the other party that the latter part is more important than the former, we win — and we have Keiko, Mari, and Jiraiya's will to do that.
- Our identities and Jiraiya's handwriting should be confirmation enough. It's not meant to be anything but an excuse.
- Convincing the rest of the village is a separate matter entirely, and could be done afterwards, using other methods.
- For example, if we publicly sign the Toad and the Snake scrolls, and then have the summons accept us as the rightful new summoners before the eyes of a crowd, it'll be pretty damn hard to make us backtrack.
- This analogy doesn't work. The scroll is a military asset; we're part of Leaf's military, part of command structure. If we take it, it won't stop being a Leaf asset. If we won't take it, they'll end up giving it to another Clan anyway, or (less plausibly) to a clanless ninja. What's the difference?
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- Actually pretty lost
Changes made as per @faflec 's request:
Also, my plan needs a little trimming.
Given that both plans involving stealing the snake scroll now need us to wait and check with other people anyway, I really think we should just do something else in the meanwhile and come back to this next time. Maybe @faflec can add a line about checking with Naruto about obtaining the scroll for political purposes?
Also, my plan needs a little trimming.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Well, since you're asking...
- Take the Snake Scroll.
- Sanity-check and plan with Naruto and Tsunade.
- Where exactly is the scroll? Whom do we need to convince to take it?
- Group: Hazou, Keiko, Noburi + Naruto's clone and Mari (if available).
- Go to wherever the scroll is. Take it. Justifications:
- You're Lord Goketsu; Naruto is the S-Rank hero of the Village.
- As Lord Hyuuga pointed out, Jiraiya was Orochimaru's teammate. He would be given Orochimaru's possessions absent a will. We're his heirs, and so the rightful owners of that scroll.
- Additionally, we've been lawfully (spirit and letter) charged with saving the world. Summon Scrolls are invaluable resources that will clear numerous problems for Uplift.
- Appeal to their personal loyalty to Jiraiya. Brandish Orochimaru's pardon and will as applicable.
- Check with Keiko: if you aren't trained in Summoning, can you safely sign the scroll? If yes, sign once acquired.
- Ask Keiko to let you look at the Pangolin Scroll's full length. Is it really a seal?
- Contact the Snakes:
- Learn about the Snakes' culture/politics from: Jiraiya's notes, Pangolins, Toads.
- Message them via the Pangolins.
- Inform that we'll be signing the scroll.
- Orochimaru: Did he leave them a will? He's been pardoned; we want his wishes carried out.
- Consider establishing positive relations by protecting them from Pangolin expansion (sell them seals?).
- Suggest giving the Pangolins an OPSEC-sanitized list of seals. They could request seals from it in exchange for:
- Improving treatment of conquered Clans.
- Conquered Clans' jutsu (Condors' space-time ninjutsu?).
- Schedule meetings with:
- ISC, Asuma.
- Akane, Tenten.
Just to make sure you're aware: the blue line is my price for wordcount-optimization. You can't take it out if you want me to continue doing business with you.
Additionally, note that at this point your plan is very similar to Oneiros' (the only important difference is that in her plan we don't try to take Naruto's clone along). Could you be convinced to vote for it as well?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Thanks!
Nope, I still think this is a terrible idea and would much prefer to see faflec's plan win. I've only made this vote on the basis that I think there's several glaring problems with the idea, and this both
a) has a slightly better chance of not just failing and opening us up to accusations of treason with Naruto's help, and
b) gives Naruto (and Tsunade now) a chance to go over the plan with us. In the event that I am correct and this is a terrible, terrible idea, they will tell us so and we will have only wasted a day, instead of much more. (In the event that our insane troll logic actually flies, they'll still help improve our odds of success.)
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Made @Noumero's suggested changes for word count.
Again, faflec's plan is better, and you should vote for that. But if you're dead set on trying to take the snake scroll, this is probably our best shot.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Welcome! We're glad to have you
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Okay, this thread moves far too fast for me. I've read the update, which was everything we could have dreamed of.
I've also read all the QM posts and slightly skimmed a few other posts.
Us having sat around doing nothing but waiting for audiences for over 36 hours really doesn't seem like in character for Hazou and company. Nor is it reflective of the player base.
Even just the fact that we would definitely have met with Akane at least once. I guess that could also be inserted retroactively, since neither Akane nor her family are in any way political players.
And now to reading the top plans.
I've also read all the QM posts and slightly skimmed a few other posts.
Why did we fast-forward the time so much with so few actual actions or scenes in between?
Any chance we can retcon the last chapter to have happened earlier instead?
Us having sat around doing nothing but waiting for audiences for over 36 hours really doesn't seem like in character for Hazou and company. Nor is it reflective of the player base.
Even just the fact that we would definitely have met with Akane at least once. I guess that could also be inserted retroactively, since neither Akane nor her family are in any way political players.
And now to reading the top plans.