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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Okay, fuck, I think I know why I have this bad gut feeling.

Hiashi's argument for taking the scroll is too close for comfort.

Behold:

Go directly to the Tower. Take the Scroll.
  • We're Lord Hiashi. We're acting as the last noble clan, the Hyuga. Yield.
    • We have been lawfully charged with restoring Leaf's greatness, and summon scrolls are invaluable resources that will clear numerous problems towards that end.
      • We have a right to the Snake Scroll by our loyalty to Leaf and by our ability to leverage its strength for the defense of Leaf, we only need to get that through to the ANBU holding it
      • The Hyuga are the most noble and strongest clan with the strongest members capable of using the Snake Scroll in defense of Leaf.
      • The other people after the scroll are missing-nin and opportunists.
      • Thus the scroll logically, rightfully goes to the Hyuga.
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You're right, we should guard against this possibility.

HAZOU: Hey Naruto, Aunt Tsunade, what if Hiashi tries to yoink the Snake Scroll for himself?

TSUNADE: DEATH

NARUTO: It starts with "Ra-" and ends with "-gan!" and in the middle theres going to be a really icky squelching noise.
 
MMKII said:
You're right, we should guard against this possibility.

HAZOU: Hey Naruto, Aunt Tsunade, what if Hiashi tries to yoink the Snake Scroll for himself?

TSUNADE: DEATH

NARUTO: It starts with "Ra-" and ends with "-gan!" and in the middle theres going to be a really icky squelching noise.
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That doesn't help us much because the response to us taking the scroll might well be:

TSUNADE: DEATH

NARUTO: Sorry, bro, you really should've seen that one coming.

That being said, Oneiros is checking with the two people that could really put the screws to us, so I will continue to steadfastly vote for her plan.
 
Holy shit that's a lot of pages and messages to readskim through near bedtime.

Roomba said:
and obviously changing anything in the Academy is off the table with Hiashikage.
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I mean, it all depends on how it's sold. If we put a nationalist spin on it – make the next generation better than <various out-groups> though superior education – I think we'd be able to override conservatism. Convincing Hiashikage with facts and logic that appeal to biases, etc etc.
Jello_Raptor said:
I do think we should try to come up with basic proto plans for:
  • Convincing Tsunade to take the hat
  • Asuma for Hokage
  • Naruto for Hokage
  • Chouza for Hokage
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... Honestly, I could get behind this. I'm not entirely sure it's worth the effort/time to for the –

Oh wait. Update hit.

I like Naruto already.


Voting for this, and against the Snake plan.

[X] Action Plan: Speaking of Unity
 
Oneiros said:
  • We're Lord Goketsu, acting on the direct order (letter and spirit) of the Hokage: save the world, let no-one stand in our way.
  • Summon Scrolls are valuable resources that have been instrumental in stopping Akatsuki, and will clear numerous problems for Uplift
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Can I just say that this justification can be used for basically anything? It's just ridiculous. Therefore it will not fly as that justification can also be used to justify us grabbing the byakugan eyes for example. And more significantly the will of a Hokage with regards to village matters doesn't extend very far past his death. His own belongings? sure. Clan stuff? uh huh

Hiashi with the hat can reclaim the Snake scroll from us pretty easily given yhe flimsy justifications we are using.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Okay, fuck, I think I know why I have this bad gut feeling.

Hiashi's argument for taking the scroll is too close for comfort.

Behold:

Go directly to the Tower. Take the Scroll.
  • We're Lord Hiashi. We're acting as the last noble clan, the Hyuga. Yield.
    • We have been lawfully charged with restoring Leaf's greatness, and summon scrolls are invaluable resources that will clear numerous problems towards that end.
      • We have a right to the Snake Scroll by our loyalty to Leaf and by our ability to leverage its strength for the defense of Leaf, we only need to get that through to the ANBU holding it
      • The Hyuga are the most noble and strongest clan with the strongest members capable of using the Snake Scroll in defense of Leaf.
      • The other people after the scroll are missing-nin and opportunists.
      • Thus the scroll logically, rightfully goes to the Hyuga.
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Shard said:
Can I just say that this justification can be used for basically anything? It's just ridiculous. Therefore it will not fly as that justification can also be used to justify us grabbing the byakugan eyes for example. And more significantly the will of a Hokage with regards to village matters doesn't extend very far past his death. His own belongings? sure. Clan stuff? uh huh

Hiashi with the hat can reclaim the Snake scroll from us pretty easily given yhe flimsy justifications we are using.
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Here's the thing: we aren't taking the scroll because we have a good, logical justification for it that we can use to cleanly convince others of our rightful claim to the thing. If they already believed in us actually having the capacity to meaningfully turn a summoning scroll into better odds of saving the world, we wouldn't have to convince them in the first place.

We are taking the scroll because we can, and whatever justification we present exists only to serve the purpose of greasing the social gears that causes people to stop thinking critically and to accept authority when it is wielded with confidence and backed by force.

We are living in a society where might makes right, and if we don't make the right, you can be damned sure Hiashi will.

We have the backing of Naruto, Tsunade, and Mari. We are the legacy of Jiraiya. We need to act like it.
 
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Shard said:
Can I just say that this justification can be used for basically anything? It's just ridiculous. Therefore it will not fly as that justification can also be used to justify us grabbing the byakugan eyes for example. And more significantly the will of a Hokage with regards to village matters doesn't extend very far past his death. His own belongings? sure. Clan stuff? uh huh

Hiashi with the hat can reclaim the Snake scroll from us pretty easily given yhe flimsy justifications we are using.
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Oh yeah the entire plan, from the justification to the party just going to the tower to get it to blindside the other clans, is completely ridiculous. Frankly the only reason this might not be a complete disaster is because Keiko, Noburi, and Tsunade will smack Hazo's shit when he suggests it.
 
Vecht said:
Here's the thing: we aren't taking the scroll because we have a good, logical justification for it that we can use to convince others of our rightful claim to the thing. We are taking the scroll because we can, and whatever justification we present exists only to serve the purpose of greasing the social gears that causes people to stop thinking critically and to accept authority when it is wielded with confidence and backed by force.

We are living in a society where might makes right, and if we don't make the right, you can be damned sure Hiashi will.

We have the backing of Naruto, Tsunade, and Mari. We are the legacy of Jiraiya. We need to act like it.
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You seem to be suggesting that we will get away with it because Hiashi won't dare attack us. I expect he will be killing us with glee the moment he has a reasonable excuse that will fly with the other clans. Treason is pretty much the best excuse he could possibly have.
 
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MrCogmor said:
You seem to be suggesting that we will get away with it because Hiashi won't dare attack us instead of killing us with glee the moment he has a reasonable excuse that will fly with the other clans.
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Yes, that is correct. It's not like he needs any additional justification -- this is the default state of affairs regardless of our next actions. He won't even need to concoct an excuse if he's elected Hokage. He'll just send us on risky missions until we're dead.
 
Vecht said:
Here's the thing: we aren't taking the scroll because we have a good, logical justification for it that we can use to convince others of our rightful claim to the thing. We are taking the scroll because we can, and whatever justification we present exists only to serve the purpose of greasing the social gears that causes people to stop thinking critically and to accept authority when it is wielded with confidence and backed by force.

We are living in a society where might makes right, and if we don't make the right, you can be damned sure Hiashi will.

We have the backing of Naruto, Tsunade, and Mari. We are the legacy of Jiraiya. We need to act like it.
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'Because We Can' and 'Might makes right' are arguments to use when you, you know, are actually the strongest and unconcerned as to the political ramifications of your actions.
 
Shard said:
'Because We Can' and 'Might makes right' are arguments to use when you, you know, are actually the strongest and unconcerned as to the political ramifications of your actions.
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We are tho.

Anyone saying otherwise has to contend with Naruto, Mari, and also survive whatever machinations we cook up.

Woe unto the world indeed.
 
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Vecht said:
We are tho.

Anyone saying otherwise has to contend with Tsunade, Naruto, Mari, and also survive whatever machinations we cook up.

Woe unto the world indeed.
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I seem to recall that the thread wanted us to uplift the ninja deathworld we are in. Things which require us to have Leaf village at least broadly on the team's side.
 
Vecht said:
We are tho.

Anyone saying otherwise has to contend with Tsunade, Naruto, Mari, and also survive whatever machinations we cook up.

Woe unto the world indeed.
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We really aren't, we're only barely a clan in the eyes of the council at this point, our soon to be clan head is a traumatized and bedridden, Mari is barely stable, and there is a decent chance using Jiraiya's letter as some flimsy stretch to finesse Orochimaru's scroll will actually piss off Tsunade.

Not to mention this an established oligarchy, no matter how much of a hot shit you think the clan is right now you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be negative political consequences for trying to claim the scroll by just going straight to the tower and demanding it.
 
Vecht said:
Yes, that is correct. It's not like he needs any additional justification -- this is the default state of affairs regardless of our next actions. He won't even need to concoct an excuse if he's elected Hokage. He'll just send us on risky missions until we're dead.
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:confused: How can Hiashi get us executed for commiting treason by stealing the snake scroll if we don't steal the snake scroll?
Vecht said:
Anyone saying otherwise has to contend with Tsunade, Naruto, Mari, and also survive whatever machinations we cook up.
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Tsunade and Naruto are not going to fight the entire village for us and nobody is invincible.
 
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I'm glad I stopped lurking and voted. We're tied 18-18 right now.
Adhoc vote count started by AlphaDelta on May 13, 2019 at 3:36 AM, finished with 253 posts and 36 votes.
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Hmm. @Oneiros, I suggest the following modification:
  • We only need to convince the ANBU guarding it. As a clan, with Tsunade's and Naruto's support, we represent a significant fraction of Leaf's military strength. Additionally, the ANBU were loyal to Jiraiya personally. With these advantages, we'll only need an excuse:
    • We're Lord Goketsu, acting on the direct order (letter and spirit) of the Hokage: save the world, let no-one stand in our way.
    • Summon Scrolls are valuable resources that have been instrumental in stopping Akatsuki, and will clear numerous problems for Uplift.
    • Jiraiya was Orochimaru's team leader and heir — his scroll rightfully belongs to the Gouketsu.
    • Brandish Orochimaru's pardon and will as appropriate.
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Shadowwarp said:
We really aren't, we're only barely a clan in the eyes of the council at this point, our soon to be clan head is a traumatized and bedridden, Mari is barely stable, and there is a decent chance using Jiraiya's letter as some flimsy stretch to finesse Orochimaru's scroll will actually piss off Tsunade.
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Look: we can go back and forth on framing the situation and arguing "uh huh!"/"nuh uh!" but I don't think that's going to be productive in changing any opinions.

I will ask though: if you think we're haven't a leg to stand on politically, why even bother?

As to Tsunade: good thing we're checking with her first!

Shadowwarp said:
Not to mention this an established oligarchy, no matter how much of a hot shit you think the clan is right now you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be negative political consequences for trying to claim the scroll by just going straight to the tower and demanding it.
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Of course there will be consequences. Anything we do is going to garner the ire of our political opponents. Doesn't matter; got the scroll.

And if only we had an elite infiltration/social spec jounin on our side to help us out on that front...

MrCogmor said:
:confused: How can Hiashi get us executed for commiting treason by stealing the snake scroll if we don't steal the snake scroll?
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Nice ninja edit.

Point stands, he doesn't need a reason to get us killed if wins the hat. If he doesn't, then what's the problem?
 
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