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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MMKII said:
[x] Happy Valentines Day, Gouketsu Hazou

  • Arrange a very complicated series of interactions disguised as dates.
    • Ami is there thinking its a date between Hazou and her.
    • Panjandrum is there thinking he is on a date with Panchipama.
    • Kiba is there thinking its a date between him and Ikeda.
    • Ikeda is there thinking its a date between her and Miko(who is totally in Mist).
    • Ino is there thinking its a date between you and Ami and is there for the gossip.
    • Noburi is there thinking its a date between him and Gisuji.
    • Kiri is there thinking its a date between her and Noburi.
    • Teuchi is there on a dinner date with Teuchi.
      • Arrange for Teuchi to bring the Akatsuki book, and accidentally lose it somewhere where we'll be later able to pick it up.
    • Panchipama is NOT there on a date with Panjandrum.
    • Hana is there thinking its a date between Ami's lungs and a bathtub of freezing water.
    • Hinata is there on a mystery date after recieiving a mysterious note accompanied by a lewd message spelled out in flowers.
    • Ren is there on a date with Gisuji.
    • Shikamaru is there thinking its an instance of two individuals spending a day together in order to facilitate greater mutual knowledge and familiarity, arranged in anticipation of a potential long-term relationship between him and Keiko.
    • Keiko is there thinking its a date between her kunai and Hazou's squishy interior.
    • Gisuji is actually there on five different dates.
    • Pandaa is there thinking its a date with Panchipama.
    • Chouji is there on a date with some hot appetizing grub.
    • Nameless Kurosawa Proctor from Event 5 is there thinking its a date with a mystery man Jonin known as ANBU Captain Gaz Patcho
    • Shin is there because someone told him in advance of Hazou's nice date with Kiri (he's plotting to ally with the Wakahisa???).
    • Asuma is there on a date with Kakashi.
    • Kurenai is there on a date with the bottom of a sake jug.
    • Zabuza is there on a date with destiny.
    • Hazou is not there.
  • Stay in your bed with a nice book, some cookies, and hot chocolate.
    • Turn your thoughts towards the subject of romance and reminisce about past opportunities gone by.
    • *snort*
    • After you're done laughing, take out your WMD blueprints from the book and start revising.
      • Design seven WMDs, simultaneous use of which would obliterate all of reality.
      • Destroy the blueprints for one of them.
      • This will be important later when the plebs find out.
    • You'll call it "Armageddon Initiative." when its done.
    • After an hour of revision, fold it up and tuck it safely next to your Profile of Many Minoris and the ten page list of things Jiraiya and Kagome told you you weren't allowed to do with Force Walls just yet.
    • Go to bed and sleep the sleep that only an absolute madman can have.
  • Just kidding you're still awake its 11pm remember that time when you said that embarassing thing in the middle of taijutsu class during your second year in the academy?
    • Oh no you're definitely remembering it now Hazou, abort mission think happy thoughts!
    • You accidentally think of Akane
      • Whoops. Big oof.
    • Wipe the tears away and get back to sleep. You are fine. Your heart is not broken into a thousand tiny shards of glass.
    • Make sure to listen to the voices that are lulling you slowly to sleep.
      • We're your bestest friends! :) :) :)
  • All according to Shikaku
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*Kagome and Ayako. Ayako and an implosives master.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Uh... vote for me?

Anyways, it also looks like you in particular, Cariyaga, aren't voting for any plans. Given the recent surge of meme votes, even if you don't have any preference between the leading plans it might be worth voting for both to widen the gap.
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Correct. Alternatively, I could vote for the meme votes themselves in vengeance against all those who have wronged me. Decisions, decisions. :p
 
Cariyaga said:
Alternatively, I could vote for the meme votes themselves in vengeance against all those who have wronged me.
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The Dark One has frozen the vote counter until such a time as 'Happy Valentine's Day, Gouketsu Hazou' wins the vote.

Truly he is mighty indeed.
 
So, I've been thinking about what to do with Keiko. It was essentially a loop of:
  1. Try to think of a new line of argumentation.
  2. Find and consider it.
  3. Realize it's something Keiko already understands.
  4. Throw it out the window.
  5. GOTO 1.
And I think I've arrived at something! But first, if you're interested:

Most of this was already stated in-thread or is self-evident. Still:
  • It's pointless to expand on why we did not inform her: her guesses were pretty close to reality, sans thread memes and politics.
  • It's pointless to bring up that Keiko is wrong in implicitly claiming Ami as her own, or stating that we have not really violated her agency by talking to her sister: she knows it.
  • It's pointless to bring up Keiko's problems with communication and excessive use of intimidation: she knows them.
  • It's pointless to talk about how conforming to Keiko's irrational wishes regarding Ami would hinder our political goals and (potentially, in the light of new information) endanger Ami herself: she knows that.
  • It's not merely pointless but is actively counter-productive to bring up her Ami hero-worship: she does not seem to be self-aware about it, and pointing it out at this time would only infuriate her more. (Remember what happened when Hazou suggested her parents weren't very good ones?)
  • It's pointless to apologize or make promises about doing better in the future: it will sound hollow.
  • It's pointless to bring up any of her personal issues, such as her communication problems, and asserting that she could improve on them, or promising to help her with that: it will sound hollow.
  • It's pointless to give her gifts as an apology, be that physical objects or commitments or Nara!hours: she will see them as hollow at best and manipulative at worst.
To sum up: the situation is a joy to work with.

[ ] Plan module: Response to Keiko
Wordcount: 294.
  • Demeanour: calm and collected.
  • Approach Keiko when both of you have some free time. Discuss.
  • She was correct:
    • We knew how she felt about Ami, and chose to knowingly ignore her feelings in pursuit of a political opportunity.
    • We kept her in the dark because we knew how she'd react to the former, and that put another political objective into jeopardy — her victory in the tournament.
    • Yes, we would ignore her feelings again if there is sufficient outside incentive to do so. No, we wouldn't do it lightly.
  • But is any part of this unusual, unexpected, or dysfunctional?
    • Consider the opposite: A Hazou who never does anything if it would hurt Keiko, for whom Keiko's feelings have an overriding priority over everything. Isn't that unhealthy and... creepy?
    • People don't act this way; they disagree and hurt the feelings even of their loved ones, all the time.
      • Hazou knew how Jiraiya may react, and still reported on his mother's recent actions to him.
      • We knew Kagome's fears and insecurities, and still dragged him into Leaf.
      • That doesn't mean nobody cares about anyone else.
    • A hypothetical: if Keiko could stop the Pangolins' crimes by exacerbating Mari's depression, would she not?
  • Which is not to say Keiko doesn't, in turn, have a right to feel angry and betrayed, or that we're happy about everything that transpired. We don't want her to be hurting, but we don't know how to make her feel better. Apologies would sound hollow, gestures or gifts would seem empty.
  • Perhaps she has better ideas? She was about to say something yesterday, before cutting herself off. "What I need from you..."?
  • Optional: Congratulate her on personal growth. Whatever other people's issues may be, her recent actions are not those of an agency-less tool.


It's possible I'm off the mark there, of course. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to just nix everything except the last two bullet-points as pointless as well, as something Keiko already understands and sees no comfort in. Perhaps we should just ask if there is anything she thinks we could do to make her feel better, and then attempt to confuse her by congratulating her.

In addition, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to proceed with it at this time: Keiko likely needs some time to cool down before she is ready to consider anything we say. What were her interests again? Logistics, slaughter, mind-breaking horror, and overly sentimental romance novels? Perhaps we could covertly provide her with opportunities to pursue them.
 
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Noumero said:
Yes, we would ignore her feelings again if there is sufficient outside incentive to do so.
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I really want to append to the end of this "No, we would not do it lightly." It's probably redundant with the other stuff in the speech, but it's a good thing to repeat, and this would be a good place to repeat it.

I also agree that we shouldn't do it this plan, in the direct wake of the second Ami letter, but the time to do it may be soon enough. A few days is plenty of time to cool down from immediate emotions, and while Keiko will be harboring more long-term resentment it's not likely to decrease anytime soon and it's probably better to handle sooner rather than later. I suggest we talk to Keiko after the next Ami date, should Jiraiya schedule one, but before we leave Mist.

If we can repair Keiko's opinion of us a little before we go, then there's a chance Keiko will leave more of her resentment and pain here in Mist than otherwise, and I'd rather Keiko be able to 'put this behind her' more by the time we return to Leaf and check in on Hidden Mountain and stuff.
 
The problem with that line of reasoning is that she could very well have helped us in dealing with Ami if we convinced her.
 
Cariyaga said:
The problem with that line of reasoning is that she could very well have helped us in dealing with Ami if we convinced her.
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I mean I think this sums part of it up just fine and dandy:

Veedrac said:
Talk to Keiko. CCNJ, but for real this time. We didn't want to talk to Keiko at least in part because she threatens violence, literal murder in cases. It is difficult to have a conversation with her when she is only able to stably reside in the states of a) having won the argument or b) sulking about how pointless she is. Agency isn't about always getting what you want. There is a state of I want something that I do not have and that is OK that one needs to be able to inhabit in order to even have desires that do not derail you, and in order for people to handle considering your preferences in a non-zero-sum manner.
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Given that the Thursday update dropped on Tuesday, we'll just treat this as a normal voting cycle that started after the update and continues until 9am NYC time on Saturday.

Voting is open for ~37 hours.
 
Cariyaga said:
I mean, that's certainly relevant to the situation, but I don't see how it sums it up?
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We couldn't have been quite be sure IC that Keiko wouldn't have instantly began using us for target practice and ignored any argument we presented in favor of doing this (or just retreated and said yes and then aggressively moping about it for a few weeks).
 
In regards to the current situation with Keiko I have very strong opinions. These opinions are very much based on my personal lived experience so I fully understand if not everyone agrees with me.

My first opinion is that no one gets to dictate what relationships a person can or cannot engage in. Everyone has the right to choose whom to spend time with as long as both parties agree. When a third party tries to interfere with this I find it deeply problematic. No one gets to dictate how any person conduct her life. (Once again this is very much intertwined with a core part of my identity)

Secondly Keiko's objection stem from the fact that she doesn't see Ami as a person. Keiko has an ideal that she see's as Ami. Nothing is allowed to tarnish this ideal. Ami is not allowed to have her own agency because to Keiko owns the ideal of Ami. Hazō is not allowed to interact with Ami because that's not what Keiko would allow. Keiko believes she owns Ami and to a lesser extent Hazō. They must conform to the images of them she has in her head.
 
MMKII said:
We couldn't have been quite be sure IC that Keiko wouldn't have instantly began using us for target practice and ignored any argument we presented in favor of doing this (or just retreated and said yes and then aggressively moping about it for a few weeks).
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Yeah, that doesn't really follow. You guys are making a much bigger deal out of her violent tendencies than what we've really seen of her, imo.
 
Cariyaga said:
Yeah, that doesn't really follow. You guys are making a much bigger deal out of her violent tendencies than what we've really seen of her, imo.
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Without even pausing to verify or ask us anything to confirm the situation, she hauled us off to a training field and began a full scale interrogation (at least to the extent that she was capable of doing so).

Ninja or not, you dont't do that shit to people in the friend category. Kekio is a frequent offender in this. For all this "agency" nonsense, her first options in reach for problem solving are to glare at something until it strictly conforms to her will or to threaten it with violence if that doesn't work out.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
I really want to append to the end of this "No, we would not do it lightly." It's probably redundant with the other stuff in the speech, but it's a good thing to repeat, and this would be a good place to repeat it.
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Reasonable. Implemented.
Cariyaga said:
The problem with that line of reasoning is that she could very well have helped us in dealing with Ami if we convinced her.
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Well, so Hazou made an... oversight?
MMKII said:
We couldn't have been quite be sure IC that Keiko wouldn't have instantly began using us for target practice and ignored any argument we presented in favor of doing this (or just retreated and said yes and then aggressively moping about it for a few weeks).
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While that's part of the reason, I don't think we should actually bring it up. She already stated that she is "aware that she relies on intimidation as a crutch because she is otherwise incapable of handling social conflict"; it's not an insightful thought.

Worse: if we bring it up and say, e. g., "we don't feel comfortable bringing up sensitive topics around you, but we'll try to trust you more and help you express yourself in a more constructive manner", what she will hear would be "Hazou is explicitly confirming that my assessment of myself as an irreparably damaged individual is correct, thereby indicating that he wishes to never speak to me again".
Oneiros said:
My first opinion is that no one gets to dictate what relationships a person can or cannot engage in. Everyone has the right to choose whom to spend time with as long as both parties agree. When a third party tries to interfere with this I find it deeply problematic. No one gets to dictate how any person conduct her life.
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See, Keiko knows that. She agrees with you. It's an internal conflict:
  • Keiko feels that she has some claim on Ami and that she must therefore have input in whether Hazou interacts with her.
  • Keiko knows that she has no actual rights to claim Ami as her own, and that Hazou didn't really do anything monstrous by talking to Ami without her permission:
    Keiko said:
    I have no special claim over Ami, nor any right to feel betrayed merely because you chose not to keep me abreast of your daily activities. It was reasonable for you to treat me as an obstacle when I was behaving irrationally, just as it is reasonable for you to treat Kagome as an obstacle when his aggressive paranoia endangers the clan's public image.
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There's no value to be gained by re-stating it to Keiko's face, unless our goal is to make her feel worse about herself.
 
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MMKII said:
Ninja or not, you dont't do that shit to people in the friend category. Kekio is a frequent offender in this. For all this "agency" nonsense, her first options in reach for problem solving are to glare at something until it strictly conforms to her will or to threaten it with violence if that doesn't work out.
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You don't? Tell that to Jiraiya. I'm sure he can tell you all about how many friends he's done something like that to.
 
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