So we have one plan that does stuff (and when we get around to doing that stuff I think we should use this plan, so editting it and mulling it over is wortwhile).

My sense of whats going on is still a bit off-kilter, since we haven't done the Shikamaru match yet and are lacking info. Can we watch the Shino match (or skip it) and give Keiko a pile of ideas on how to combat Shika?
 
So, what's the consensus around the Wood release thing? It seems odd that they'd make it public now, for such an irrelevant event, instead of say in the middle of WWnext. Doesn't it also make Shikamaru more of a target than he was before? Kidnapping him to weaken the perceived weakest Leaf clan is one thing, kidnapping him to pierce the secrets of Wood release is another.

I'm pretty sure it is a fake and it will be revealed as such soon enough. I'm less sure, but suppose it is probable enough that the thing was just used to scare Ikeda, Nara are probably not targeted by intelligence alliance and Shikamaru will say 'congrats for being smart, thank you' if Keiko will point this out in pre-battle banther
 
So, we need to defeat ISC. Let's brainstorm.

@Lailoken's idea has merit. Shikamaru couldn't be certain he will defeat Keiko, which means we may negotiate ISC's surrender by offering diplomatic concessions. Said concessions would be smaller — probably significantly smaller — than whatever they'd get from the boost to reputation from winning the tournament/defeating Keiko (otherwise we wouldn't have an incentive to not fight). Given that we know Keiko would be emotionally compromised on the day of their fight, and since we paid minimal-to-no attention to the tournament preparations (as opposed to ISC, who went all-out), I think we should seriously consider doing it.

I don't think we will, though. Which means... Ugh, combat tactics. I find them so troublesome.

I suggest we implement @Lailoken's firestorm idea in combination with game-theoretic coercion, after running the whole thing by Jiraiya. We could test the bombs in the Seventh Path, fine-tune their AoE. Keiko then drops one in the area during the speech as a demonstration, convinces Shikamaru to forfeit. It'll probably work.
To expand on this, Wood Element is exceptional for sheer versatility. You can make pretty much anything out of durable wood on the spot, and it doesn't have to be a pre-designed shape
You can make pretty much anything
Woodworking 100.
 
So, we need to defeat ISC. Let's brainstorm.

@Lailoken's idea has merit. Shikamaru couldn't be certain he will defeat Keiko, which means we may negotiate ISC's surrender by offering diplomatic concessions. Said concessions would be smaller — probably significantly smaller — than whatever they'd get from the boost to reputation from winning the tournament/defeating Keiko (otherwise we wouldn't have an incentive to not fight). Given that we know Keiko would be emotionally compromised on the day of their fight, and since we paid minimal-to-no attention to the tournament preparations (as opposed to ISC, who went all-out), I think we should seriously consider doing it.

I don't think we will, though. Which means... Ugh, combat tactics. I find them so troublesome.

I suggest we implement @Lailoken's firestorm idea in combination with game-theoretic coercion, after running the whole thing by Jiraiya. We could test the bombs in the Seventh Path, fine-tune their AoE. Keiko then drops one in the area during the speech as a demonstration, convinces Shikamaru to forfeit. It'll probably work.


Woodworking 100.

Do you really want to show the Pangolins that sort of weapon? More importantly, do you want to tell Keiko to show them that sort of weapon, after her previously-stated doubts?
 
Do you really want to show the Pangolins that sort of weapon? More importantly, do you want to tell Keiko to show them that sort of weapon, after her previously-stated doubts?
They've already seen Youthenizers and Banshee Slayers during the Fifth Event. These firebombs don't seem much more destructive.
 
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They've already seen Youthenizers and Banshee Slayers during the Fourth Event. These firebombs don't seem much more destructive.

My concern is less that they'll absolutely want this weapon and more that it's something that risks them stepping up our current role as armsdealers to the animal Nazis, which is going to seriously damage our relationship with Keiko at a time that it's already very strained.

Let's say it's 10% odds they ask, and I think that's overly optimistic. (After all, it's possible they're already interested in the weapons we've shown them, and they're just waiting for enough different products before they ask for a deal.) How badly do you think an offer we can't refuse there further fucks up the relationship? Because my answer, personally, is very.

So I'm categorically refusing to vote for any plan that has this sort of thing in it, and I'd like to seen restraint around showing even minor WMDs to the Pangolins in future. We're already in a hole with Keiko, and now is not a time to risk shovels, especially when it involves digging a hole that puts Hazou at odds with his ideals.
 
If we are already running things by Jiraiya, can we add this bit about how to play off Hazou's Uplift speech?

The problem was that Jiraiya had to choose between looking like he can't keep Hazou in line or support the radical Uplift speech as it is. But how about we spin this as something we intended to begin with?

Jiraiya will act more like something who cares about hardline old values whereas Hazou will be the new and young guy trying to affect big changes. The idea here is that those two still work together for the same goal (i.e. like Keiko and Hazou during their speech) but people unhappy with the status quo would seek out Hazou instead of forming their own rebellious groups (and vice versa for Jiraiya's faction).

That way both political groups report to either Jiraiya or Hazou so we will have a rough idea what they are thinking, and - ideally - can come up with something that works for both sides together.
 
My concern is less that they'll absolutely want this weapon and more that it's something that risks them stepping up our current role as armsdealers to the animal Nazis, which is going to seriously damage our relationship with Keiko at a time that it's already very strained.

Let's say it's 10% odds they ask, and I think that's overly optimistic. (After all, it's possible they're already interested in the weapons we've shown them, and they're just waiting for enough different products before they ask for a deal.) How badly do you think an offer we can't refuse there further fucks up the relationship? Because my answer, personally, is very.

So I'm categorically refusing to vote for any plan that has this sort of thing in it, and I'd like to seen restraint around showing even minor WMDs to the Pangolins in future. We're already in a hole with Keiko, and now is not a time to risk shovels, especially when it involves digging a hole that puts Hazou at odds with his ideals.
Hm. What if we test it on the Toads' territory (with Jiraiya to oversee/ensure privacy)? Pangolins won't actually see it during the match, because if it works, there'll be no match.
 
If only Keiko spent XP on just a few more levels of CR...
 
Alright, here we go. Specialists (@Lailoken, @Vecht?), did I get the firebomb design right?

[x] Retroactive Action Plan: Choosing To Talk Not Fight XOR Accidentally Burning The Audience To Ashes
Wordcount: 286.
  • Present ideas to Keiko. Check with Jiraiya.
  • Firebombing:
    • Weapon design:
      • Fill a fragile bowl with water and oil (~1:9 ratio). Ignite oil, seal it. Attach to a kunai with an explosive seal.
      • Explosive destroys the storage seal. Water flash-vaporizes, spreading burning oil omnidirectionally, creating a firestorm.
      • Test in Mist (try to ensure privacy):
        • Determine optimal quantity of oil (firestorm should cover most of the arena).
        • Consider replacing oil with tar, for massive area-denial instead of firestorm.
    • Fight:
      • Keiko throws the firebomb into the arena during the speech, and suggests (Intimidation) that Shikamaru forfeits instead of getting incinerated.
      • If he doesn't concede, do use it. Avoid death/maiming.
    • Drawback: Breaks OPSEC on firebombs, hints at macerators.
      • Possible solution: Keiko skips speech, explains the firebomb to Shikamaru in the area (privacy), doesn't demonstrate it. Shikamaru will likely believe her (we wouldn't compromise our credibility for one-off advantage).
  • Diplomacy:
    • Reasoning:
      • ISC could win: they're creative, and thoroughly prepared.
      • That'd significantly damage our reputation: "a summoner" losing to "a lazy noncombatant". It'd give ISC significant influence over us...
      • ... yet they can't be certain they'll win .
      • Therefore, Keiko could negotiate their surrender for (smaller) political concessions.
    • Fights:
      • ISC either concede their matches, or put up token resistance.
    • Drawback: Obviously suboptimal.
  • "Generic" strategy:
    • Preparations:
      • Keiko's pangolins accompanied ISC in combat (Event 5). Any valuable intel?
        • (Aspect Bonus?)
      • ISC win by preparing countermeasures for strategies that make optimal use of their opponents' abilities. Counteract it:
        • Make a list of unexpected (suboptimal?) tactical decisions. Attack/evasion patterns, pangolin choices...
        • Devise several viable multi-step strategies. In combat, switch between them at random.
        • Consider making decisions by rolling dice.
      • Speech: Equip Banshee Slayers to no-sell psywar?
    • Fight:
      • ???
    • Drawback: Unreliable.
 
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[x] Retroactive Action Plan: Choosing To Talk Not Fight XOR Accidentally Burning The Audience To Ashes
 
The Gouketsu Summoner losing to a notoriously lazy non-combat specialist would look very bad for us.

Why do people think this? Do you even believe it yourself or is this just an argument you want to make to Jiraiya?

Because Shikamaru is definitely not weak nor lazy - where it counts.

Being known as the lazy guy out of combat is a very useful reputation to have, especially since you can now take this assumption people have of you and play it off in combat situations. And you'll likely fool some people into believing it and underestimating you, case in point: canon Kakashi.

Once he is in a combat situation, Shikamaru is actually quite scary with his bloodline because not only is it a one-hit KO in many cases but it also lets you manipulate the environment (imagine having extra shadowy hands).

He also appears to have a decent Deceit score, likely higher than Keiko's, as implied by how he was playing off the whole Wood Release bit. He may have addressed the Kages while speaking but let's not kid ourselves that the show was for Ikeda's sake only. (And sure, all those gullible people in the audience who fell for it and now think the Nara are even more powerful than they really are.)

In addition, Shikamaru not being a combat specialist is only partially correct. Whenever someone is fighting Ino, Shikamaru or Choji 1vs1 in the arena, they are basically fighting 1vs2 (or 1vs3 in Choji's case) because their specializations are well suited to helping each other outside of the arena ground.

Ino provides the insight on the opponent's psyche to enable social attacks and helps Shikamaru refine which types of plans will or will not work (e.g. don't try to intimidate Keiko, rile up Kiba and abuse the fact that he is the type to attack head on, etc.). I can't think of something Choji offers here but it's possible he provides them their blend of soldier pills which they could take before (or during if they want to risk it) the match.

In theory, a Shikamaru supplemented by Ino's report could knock out Keiko likely before the match even started. I don't think he will due to CONSEQUENCES but it is another reminder that we are not fighting a 1vs1 battle.

(Unfortunately, our way of support is non-standard seals and Noburi's chakra water - all of are banned under the tournament rulings which leaves only Hazou to help plan with Keiko.)


First thing that should have been done is asking Keiko's summons for intel on ISC techniques to - at the very least - get an aspect bonus against them. It'd be silly for Keiko to get surprised by abilities she should have already known about just because she forgot to debrief her summons.
 
Why do people think this? Do you even believe it yourself or is this just an argument you want to make to Jiraiya?
I am acutely aware of everything you've stated: this is exactly why I'm so worried. I'm saying how people will choose to perceive the loss. The Nara are known as the "weak" combat specialists, Shikamaru in particular makes a point about his laziness every chance he gets, and Keiko is the OP summoner. Nobody will care to listen to "excuses" such as "Shikamaru is actually very competent" or "ISC have ludicrous synergy" if she loses.
First thing that should have been done is asking Keiko's summons for intel on ISC techniques to - at the very least - get an aspect bonus against them. It'd be silly for Keiko to get surprised by abilities she should have already known about just because she forgot to debrief her summons.
Good point. Added.
 
Keep in mind the tournament is essentially a massive PR event for us, and normally is just an excuse for diplomacy, some showmanship, and probably the only practical purpose it normally serves on the contestant side is to estimate how ninja would do in combat under heavily restricted, shit-hit-the-fan scenarios.


As such, what actually happens is not the main concern. The perception of what happens (and how this can be twisted to fit a given narrative) is the important thing. Even if its all obvious lies, to us.
 
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Also a questions of whether it is a good idea to take the bay option: it was dark last time we did it. Doing this in broaght daylight isn't so secure. Anyone will figure out we're Doing something secret and that will make us stand out more.

The point isn't to hide what we're doing, it's to make it difficult to spy on us. Securing the meeting to the point where nobody knows about it is beyond our means, and since it's in Ami's interest for people to know, she'll arrange that they will.

I don't especially mind standing out a bit. The public narrative can be adjusted whichever way we decide to go - either this is Hazou and Ami going on a slightly unconventional date, or it's Ami reconsidering and cancelling the marriage, or whatever else we want.

Well, of course I did, but the thread has been adament that no sane person would dare risk putting a burning fuel source in a storage tag, much less matching it to an explosive tag, because that would be an absolutely unforgivable TECHINT breach.

Hey, if you want to unseal a barrel of burning oil, or devise a cluster bomb with an explosive tag as the scattering agent, go right ahead.

But if you want to show the gathered ninja of the major villages a seal capable of turning the whole arena into a raging inferno, and then claim that what you did was put burning oil and water in a storage seal, then you're essentially showing them stupid boxes, and making it a lot easier to figure out Macerators, given that Hazou already showed off youthenizers earlier.

Seriously, what matters is the magnitude of the effect relative to the means of achieving it.

Weapon design:
  • Fill a fragile bowl with water and oil (~1:9 ratio). Ignite oil, put in a storage scroll. Attach to a kunai with an explosive seal.
  • The explosive activates, destroys the storage scroll. Water flash-vaporizes, spreading burning oil omnidirectionally, creating a firestorm.
  • Vary amounts of oil to increase/decrease range. Find optimal quantity and ratio for tournament use.
    • Consider replacing oil with tar, for massive area-denial instead of firestorm.

See above. This is uncomfortably close to breaking opsec on Macerators.
 
First thing that should have been done is asking Keiko's summons for intel on ISC techniques to - at the very least - get an aspect bonus against them. It'd be silly for Keiko to get surprised by abilities she should have already known about just because she forgot to debrief her summons.
@Noumero, I second adding this in.
 
Weapon design:
  • Fill a fragile bowl with water and oil (~1:9 ratio). Ignite oil, put in a storage scroll. Attach to a kunai with an explosive seal.
  • The explosive activates, destroys the storage scroll. Water flash-vaporizes, spreading burning oil omnidirectionally, creating a firestorm.
  • Vary amounts of oil to increase/decrease range. Find optimal quantity and ratio for tournament use.
    • Consider replacing oil with tar, for massive area-denial instead of firestorm.
  • Test in the Seventh Path (on Toads' territory, to conceal from Pangolins?).

Hey, if you want to unseal a barrel of burning oil, or devise a cluster bomb with an explosive tag as the scattering agent, go right ahead.

But if you want to show the gathered ninja of the major villages a seal capable of turning the whole arena into a raging inferno, and then claim that what you did was put burning oil and water in a storage seal, then you're essentially showing them stupid boxes, and making it a lot easier to figure out Macerators, given that Hazou already showed off youthenizers earlier.

I also don't think that we should reveal this and even mentioning it is uncalled for. Tournament is just not that important.

As for pre-battle speech I propose using Yamanaka-style approach: play for weaknesses of victim opponent. Something along the lines 'We will be married. If you don't forfeit I will turn your life to living hell. And force Rock Lee to follow you around being youthfull. And I will floow you being creepy and snarky' and some other viable threats. Keiko also can remind him that she have the most inventive ninja of the Leaf (and EN) in her team ant that he promised to invent seals that will help her to drive Shika insane. Hell, we don't even need to invent anything - just put alarm seals to good use to drive poor Shikamaru to sleep deprivation!

Now this is a viable threat that can easily be implemented. Trying to intimidate Shikamaru with WMD is a bluff, because actually using it against him would mean crippling or killing him. And if he calls it we have to fight him with something else. Oh, right, we don't have any other strategy on hand. Sorry, Keiko, you lose.
 
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Speaking of misanthropes turning themselves into chakra-beast-eating trees, it would be only a small diversion to finally meet SnekUncle in the center of the Swamp of Death on the way back from Hidden Mountain.



Y'all should be careful here. Pankurashun is a drill sergeant. He was a front-line soldier for a long time and then he moved into a cadre role. In MfD, authority does not equal asskicking and asskicking does not always equal authority.

That only makes him more frightening. He's not a senior officer- he's the senior noncom.
 
I feel like the discussion passed too quickly over Chouji wrecking Hinata's shit. I'd like to emphasize for a second just how thorough was the roflstomping which took place in that fight.

Chouji didn't need to dose up on a bunch of soldier pills, he didn't sneak up and catch her in a trap or ambush, she had her Byakugan fully active. He didn't have to use any Ultimate Secret Techniques; Partial Multi-Size Jutsu is a staple of the Akimichi fighting style, and Hinata just got fucking ruined.

In this fight he drowned her, to be 'gentle', but in a real fight he could have slammed her into the ground or smashed her against the wall, torn her in half or flung her into the sky, or just gone full Lenny and simply crushed her.

@eaglejarl this fight was super satisfying to read, great job.
 
I feel like the discussion passed too quickly over Chouji wrecking Hinata's shit. I'd like to emphasize for a second just how thorough was the roflstomping which took place in that fight.

Chouji didn't need to dose up on a bunch of soldier pills, he didn't sneak up and catch her in a trap or ambush, she had her Byakugan fully active. He didn't have to use any Ultimate Secret Techniques; Partial Multi-Size Jutsu is a staple of the Akimichi fighting style, and Hinata just got fucking ruined.

In this fight he drowned her, to be 'gentle', but in a real fight he could have slammed her into the ground or smashed her against the wall, torn her in half or flung her into the sky, or just gone full Lenny and simply crushed her.

@eaglejarl this fight was super satisfying to read, great job.

Sometime the application of BRUTE FORCE is the smartest solution.
 
Just fill a wax capsule with chakra-water and have it in Keiko's mouth so she can refill easily.
 
I'm serious. The clear answer is to walk up to him and say, "Hey Shikamaru, if you tell me how to beat you in our fight you not only won't have to continue fighting, but I'll make Hazou come over and feed the deer for you for a week so you can sleep in."
 
See above. This is uncomfortably close to breaking opsec on Macerators.
Which is why we're asking Jiraiya permission first. We don't exactly have a wealth of unconventional strategies here.
As for pre-battle speech I propose using Yamanaka-style approach: play for weaknesses of victim opponent. Something along the lines 'We will be married. If you don't forfeit I will turn your life to living hell. And force Rock Lee to follow you around being youthfull. And I will floow you being creepy and snarky' and some other viable threats. Keiko also can remind him that she have the most inventive ninja of the Leaf (and EN) in her team ant that he promised to invent seals that will help her to drive Shika insane. Hell, we don't even need to invent anything - just put alarm seals to good use to drive poor Shikamaru to sleep deprivation!

Now this is a viable threat that can easily be implemented. Trying to intimidate Shikamaru with WMD is a bluff, because actually using it against him would mean crippling or killing him. And if he calls it we have to fight him with something else. Oh, right, we don't have any other strategy on hand. Sorry, Keiko, you lose.
I have several objections.
  • It's too weak. The tournament's results either have far-reaching political implications, or don't. If the latter, we don't really care what happens either way. If the former (towards which we're leaning), Shikamaru is going to shrug and accept that, because winning is more important than minor future annoyances.
  • It's not a certainty Keiko will be married to Shikamaru in particular, as opposed to another Nara. It depends on her perceived value to the clan, which may plummet if, for example, she loses the tournament.
  • It's not nice. Keiko and Shikamaru are friends. Making these kinds of threats for after the tournament seems uncalled-for on a personal level, and would seem unsportsmanlike to the public.
  • WMD— first of all, using the term "WMD" is misleading in this case. If it can't immediately depopulate a civilian village, don't call it a WMD. Second, Keiko won't be threatening to kill him, she'll be demonstrating her capability to instantly win the match, then suggesting that Shikamaru just surrender instead of going down there => getting burned => surrendering.
@Noumero, I second adding this in.
But I already did...? Oh, right, I forgot to do the blue text shtick to show it. I apologize: it's been a long time since I last updated a plan, and I'm out of practice.
[x] Retroactive Action Plan: Choosing To Talk Not Fight XOR Accidentally Burning The Audience To Ashes
Wordcount: 232.
  • Discuss with Jiraiya. Pick his preferred strategy.
  • Keiko: During Event Five, her pangolins accompanied ISC in combat. Ask them for intel.
    • Aspect bonus?
  • Firebomb strategy:
    • Weapon design:
      • Fill a fragile bowl with water and oil (~1:9 ratio). Ignite oil, put in a storage scroll. Attach to a kunai with an explosive seal.
      • The explosive activates, destroys the storage scroll. Water flash-vaporizes, spreading burning oil omnidirectionally, creating a firestorm.
      • Vary amounts of oil to increase/decrease range. Find optimal quantity and ratio for tournament use.
        • Consider replacing oil with tar, for massive area-denial instead of firestorm.
      • Test in the Seventh Path (on Toads' territory, to conceal from Pangolins?).
    • Fight:
      • Keiko throws a firebomb in the area during the speech, as a demonstration.
      • Suggests Shikamaru forfeits instead of getting incinerated (Intimidation).
    • Drawback: Reveals this weapon to everyone.
  • Diplomacy strategy:
    • Reasoning:
      • We didn't prepare for the tournament nearly as well as ISC did. They're creative, too.
      • The Gouketsu Summoner losing to a notoriously lazy non-combat specialist would look very bad for us.
      • ISC want Jiraiya to keep the hat, but it'll give the Nara significant influence over us.
      • ISC still can't be certain they'll defeat Keiko. We could probably negotiate their surrender in exchange for (significantly smaller) diplomatic concessions.
    • Fight(s):
      • Keiko approaches Shikamaru, negotiates.
      • ISC then either forfeit their matches immediately, or put up only token resistance.
    • Drawback: Obviously suboptimal.
  • [Third strategy]
    • [Your idea here]
 
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I feel like the discussion passed too quickly over Chouji wrecking Hinata's shit. I'd like to emphasize for a second just how thorough was the roflstomping which took place in that fight.

Chouji didn't need to dose up on a bunch of soldier pills, he didn't sneak up and catch her in a trap or ambush, she had her Byakugan fully active. He didn't have to use any Ultimate Secret Techniques; Partial Multi-Size Jutsu is a staple of the Akimichi fighting style, and Hinata just got fucking ruined.

In this fight he drowned her, to be 'gentle', but in a real fight he could have slammed her into the ground or smashed her against the wall, torn her in half or flung her into the sky, or just gone full Lenny and simply crushed her.

@eaglejarl this fight was super satisfying to read, great job.
Agreed, that was wonderful to read.
That being said, could he have ripped her in half or anything? My assumption was that Choji picking her up was the effect of either a block or possibly a grapple (although I'm unsure if there are rules for grappling in this system). In the standard Ino-Shika-Cho team, Cho's job is to set up blocks to prevent enemies from just running up and taking out the other two while they try some complicated strategy. Therefore it makes sense for the Akimichi to have a lot of techniques that help them block better. My read is that Hinata might have been able to out-damage Choji in a straight melee, but instead he set up a block (where he had a huge advantage because of his jutsu) and used psychological warfare to get her to surrender. I'm not convinced that he could have actually done straight damage to her, since that would mean letting go of the block.
He didn't do damage against his first opponent either, if I recall correctly. He just tossed him out of the ring.
 
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