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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Lailoken said:
She won't get away with chakra-water again. With seals unrestricted and chakra-water still restricted the competitive gap is much smaller. Even if she does win, working the crowd will soften the effect on Hazou's reputation and make her more dangerous in the next round through access to more seals. Heck, we could even let her win and it would still be a good strategy.
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I would question three things here:
  1. Won't she get away with chakra water again? There's nothing in the rules about drinking water, and the only way to prove whether water contains chakra or not is to get a Wakahisa to test it, I think. Doing that to Keiko, and only to Keiko, wouldn't be easy to justify.
    • Additionally, I don't think Keiko thinks she won't get to use it again. There was no reason to use it during her first match: she already beat her opponent by that point. She is capable of long-term thinking and understands the concept of OPSEC: if she thought demonstrating it then would lead to a ban on chakra water later, she wouldn't have done it, would have saved it for actually difficult matches.
  2. Can the crowd's opinion affect rules? It's a performance for civilians, for important civilians (daimyo, merchants), and for other ninja. I doubt we'll manage to get other ninja angry for our sakes, and civilians probably don't matter that much.
  3. If we can affect the rules and if chakra water will be banned from now on, is it not a better idea to get the crowd angry for Keiko's sake, getting chakra water un-banned, instead of seals? It is also more likely to work, since the ban on seals was there from the beginning and could be argued to apply to everyone, whereas the ban on chakra water would be introduced mid-event and would clearly apply only to Keiko (and that poor Ito Mist-nin, except he got rekt by Shikamaru in the first round).
 
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Lailoken said:
Didn't canon Gaara not sleep as a result of having full access to the almost unlimited chakra of his beast? He also couldn't have needed to breath if his shield and armor were to work for long.
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Other way round. Gaara didn't sleep as a result of the chakra of his beast having almost unlimited access to him. Namely, his seal wasn't good enough to prevent Shukaku from taking over when he slept.

As for not needing to breathe, the easy solution to that is to kill people fast. Canon techniques should be close to rocket tag, which is why they are in MfD, but fights are more interesting if fights go on longer and people can show off more of their abilities.
 
MMKII said:
Make peace with yourself.
  • You will lose. No seals, no breaking OPSEC, no insanely clever gambits that might be construed as "cheating" in this artificial scenario? You will lose.
  • But that doesn't mean you aren't going to fight anyway.
  • You threw the gauntlet down already, and Keiko answered. This fight has greater meaning to you than political strategy or publicity and showmanship.
  • You'll lose, but you aren't going quietly.
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MMKII said:
  • Let's clear something up: I know exactly how fucked I am. A sealmaster without any seals. Outmanned, outgunned, with a mile of red tape preventing me from doing something clever. In the real world this would be a suicide mission.
  • But I'm here anyway.
  • Besides, I promised a good friend that I'd do my best.
  • Let's get to the fight already.
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Are those bits really necessary? I don't think we need to hype up Hazou himself and he isn't the guy who would be resentful of losing (unless we make him so in the next plan but we won't obviously) so it comes off as, I dunno, arrogant maybe?
Like he tells himself and the audience he would have totally won if it wasn't for those pesky rule restraints - and maybe that's true. But all it does is make him appear whiny and, worst of all, diminish Keiko's win should she defeat us because he already told everyone she only won because he can't use his other seals.

Not a nice thing to do to Keiko.

In the end, we want the Goketsu to look good and if this ends up being good for Keiko's self confidence if she wins (without us throwing the match!) all the better.

faflec said:
Anyways folks, I'm the scrappy underdog here so I hope you're all rooting for me!
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Similar to the above but to a lesser extent but can we rephrase that in a way that makes Keiko look better like "My sister is really strong so please cheer for me" instead or so?

[X] Action Plan: In Which Our Hero Tries to Assault His Sister
 
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Velorien said:
Other way round. Gaara didn't sleep as a result of the chakra of his beast having almost unlimited access to him. Namely, his seal wasn't good enough to prevent Shukaku from taking over when he slept.

As for not needing to breathe, the easy solution to that is to kill people fast. Canon techniques should be close to rocket tag, which is why they are in MfD, but fights are more interesting if fights go on longer and people can show off more of their abilities.
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If he can't sleep, that mean he ought to be dead, or he's a dead man walking. There are cases where people who are unable to sleep eventually dying.

Even if he does get some sleep, sleep deprivation profoundly affect cognitive and body performance in horrible ways, such as trouble learning & remembering, cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

A great ninja is a ninja that catches some Zzz. Sleep deprivation should be emergency-only operations.
 
Noumero said:
I would question three things here:
  1. Won't she get away with chakra water again? There's nothing in the rules about drinking water, and the only way to prove whether water contains chakra or not is to get a Wakahisa to test it, I think. Doing that to Keiko, and only to Keiko, wouldn't be easy to justify.
    • Additionally, I don't think Keiko thinks she won't get to use it again. There was no reason to use it during her first match: she already beat her opponent by that point. She is capable of long-term thinking and understands the concept of OPSEC: if she thought demonstrating it then would lead to a ban on chakra water later, she wouldn't have done it, would have saved it for actually difficult matches.
  2. Can the crowd's opinion affect rules? It's a performance for civilians, for important civilians (daimyo, merchants), and for other ninja. I doubt we'll manage to get other ninja angry for our sakes, and civilians probably don't matter that much.
  3. If we can affect the rules and if chakra water will be banned from now on, is it not a better idea to get the crowd angry for Keiko's sake, getting chakra water un-banned, instead of seals? It is also more likely to work, since the ban on seals was there from the beginning and could be argued to apply to everyone, whereas the ban on chakra water would be introduced mid-event and would clearly apply only to Keiko (and that poor Ito Mist-nin, except he got rekt by Shikamaru in the first round).
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They're going to check for canteens and test them from now on. It's covered under the non-standard ninja equipment rule. I don't know why Keiko decided to play that card then. Best guess is that she was still in a state of frozen, monofocused, murderous rage from the pre-fight.

Chakra water isn't as sympathetic. It's not a direct result of Keiko's merit. Hazou's seals are inherent. Even if a compromise is reached where Hazou is only allowed to use seals which he demonstrates he can infuse he is still left much more powerful than he is now.

The entire point of these events is public perception. Would other ninja feel like they had seen a fair assessment of a kenjutsu candidate if they had had their weapons banned? At the very least a candidate should be permitted to use seals which they themselves can scribe and infuse. Even if it doesn't work, any discontent directed at the Mizukage and complicit Kages is leverage Jiraiya can exploit. This is especially true in a tournament unconventionally dominated by minor nations and Leaf's ally Sand. That's all without even mentioning the value of the perception to Jiraiya stabilizing his position in Leaf's internal politics.

Heck, it's not wholly out of the question that Hazou could get a majority of contestants to support his position on seals. All the contestants are Leaf, Leaf allies, or minor nations who are there as a result of Team Uplift's actions, and Jiraiya has a heck of a lot of bilateral bargaining power with minor nations.
 
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Tallys been fixed. Will get around to looking at suggested edits soonish


E: Actually my answer to suggested edits is "Go vote for faflecs plan then." :p
Adhoc vote count started by MMKII on Jan 12, 2019 at 7:40 AM, finished with 126938 posts and 11 votes.
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Lailoken said:
They're going to check for canteens and test them from now on
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Except they're... not doing that. They didn't check Hazou before his battle, they aren't checking any other candidates.
The entire point of these events is public perception. Would other ninja feel like they had seen a fair assessment of a kenjutsu candidate if they had had their weapons banned? At the very least a candidate should be permitted to use seals which they themselves can scribe and infuse.
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I think the point of these events is complicated political manoeuvring between Kages which is merely represented on object-level as a fair contest between chuunin-candidates due to a system of checks and balances. In actuality none of the villages are interested in "fairness" and would gleefully cheat to ensure their village is more likely to win/appear to be the most powerful. They will only claim to care about fairness if they're being disadvantaged in obvious ways, or if they think foreign contestants would leak more info on their capabilities under "fair" conditions.

Since most of the major villages aren't in the Exams this time around because of the Gouketsu's involvement, their only horse in this race is making Jiraiya look bad. Unbanning seals to let Jiraiya's son use them is the opposite of that.

As such, I don't think we'll be able to get non-Leaf ninja angry at Mist for banning seals. Come to think of it, I doubt we'll be able to get oppressed Mist civilians openly angry at the Mizukage for being unfair to a traitor-prince of a foreign nation either.
 
[x] Speech Plan: The Abject Despair of an Uncaring World
  • Confirm with Keiko beforehand, hash out an outline.
  • Greet the crowd.
    • Assert that, despite everything, you're genuinely enjoying the Exams and everything they represent: international cooperation and diplomacy, a chance to mingle with different cultures and other-minded people.
    • Doesn't that paint a picture of a better possible world?
  • Let Keiko respond.
    • She would likely note that this event is not about cooperation at all: every village still cares only about itself, and Exams only happen because peace and diplomacy are moderately more advantageous than war, at the moment.
    • All peace is volatile, and could never last for long.
  • Continue verbal sparring from there, expanding the ideological conflict from here-and-now to the global situation. Draw from your past discussions within the team.
    • Insert stories "from your travels" or from Leaf as appropriate. Keep OPSEC in mind.
    • Keiko: Don't get too abstract, be sure to make the grim picture vivid and relatably horrible.
    • Hazou: Inject levity and jokes from time to time, to win the public over. Be sure to admit that improving the world is hard, but that one failure doesn't mean total failure.
    • Most of all: keep the crowd engaged.
  • By the end, your fight should be framed as a fight about ideals:
    • Hazou's victory should represent the triumph of humanity, evoking hope and joy.
    • Keiko's victory should represent the triumph of the uncaring world, evoking despair and horror.
      • After losing, if possible: Restate that one failure isn't reason to stop trying.

Feedback? @MMKII, @faflec?
 
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[x] Speech Plan: The Abject Despair of an Uncaring World

Noumero said:
[x] Speech Plan: The Abject Despair of an Uncaring World
  • Confirm with Keiko beforehand, hash out an outline.
  • Greet the crowd.
    • Assert that, despite everything, you're genuinely enjoying the Exams and everything they represent: international cooperation and diplomacy, a chance to mingle with different cultures and other-minded people.
    • Doesn't that paint a picture of a better possible world?
  • Let Keiko respond.
    • She would likely note that this event is not about cooperation at all: every village still cares only about itself, and Exams only happen because peace and diplomacy are moderately more advantageous than war, at the moment.
    • All peace is volatile, and could never last for long.
  • Continue verbal sparring from there, expanding the ideological conflict from here-and-now to the global situation. Draw from your past discussions with Mari, Jiraiya, and each other. Keep the crowd engaged.
  • By the end, your fight should be framed as a fight about ideals:
    • Hazou's victory should represent the triumph of humanity, evoking hope and joy.
    • Keiko's victory should represent the triumph of the uncaring world, evoking despair and horror.

Feedback? @MMKII, @faflec?
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"All peace is volatile, and could never last for long."

This is great! Akatsuki will be recruiting us in no time.
 
Noumero said:
Keiko's victory should represent the triumph of the uncaring world, evoking despair and horror.
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Isn't this bad if Keiko wins (which she likely will)?

Also maybe make use of our unique ex-missing-nin experiences (henceforth known as "during our travels", and OPSEC sanitized) and tell the audience what we saw. How it made us want to improve the world, regardless of borders. How Noburi healing a kid made a small civilian family immensly happy (Shout out to best bro, maybe even mention how it's a shame non-combat skills are not tested in the tournament <- gives Noburi a much deserved compliment after his loss and lets the audience know that what they are seeing in the tournament from the Goketsu is only a fraction of our power) and how everyone - ninjas included - would benefit from everyone having increased living standards, be they civilian or ninja.
Mention how we saw Leaf in all its glory, how the people lived there compared to the wilderness and even Mist. Tell them we want this for everyone.

Also some samples of Hazou (and Jiraiya) talking about his Uplift ideals. I added Jiraiya in as well so we can get the support from Leaf due to phrasing it as a Will of Fire thing but we obviously want that and more for the other nations as well.

eaglejarl said:
"The Will of Fire isn't a joke, Kagome," Jiraiya said. "It isn't a clouds-and-sunshine fantasy that is lovely in theory and impossible in the real world. It isn't a nice-to-have that can be set aside when it becomes inconvenient. It is the true source of Leaf's power, of the Land of Fire's power. We are the richest and strongest nation in the world because we grip tight to the idea that everyone should be treated fairly, that both ninja and civilian should be honorable, that everyone in this nation is family and we must work together. The civilians are the beating heart of our nation, the source of its wealth and its knowledge. The ninja are the shield held over that heart, the thin black line that keeps the nation safe. We serve with honor and the nation returns that honor. Slaughtering civilians because they refuse our trade? That is not the Will of Fire."

Jiraiya stopped talking and Hazō blinked eyes that he only now realized had been wide and staring throughout the speech. That vision...that was what he wanted for everyone. The vision of unity and peace, the image of a society's web connecting everyone into something greater than themselves...it was the essence of the uplift concept that he had been imagining ever since the team's forced travels had begun.
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eaglejarl said:
Hazō considered that carefully. "Very well. I want to make the world better. I want to uplift civilians, give them the same quality of life that ninja have. I want to do the same for the clanless ninja, make them the equal of the clans. I want to make it so that civilians don't need to live in fear of chakra beasts and ninja don't have to kill. I want everyone to be rich enough and strong enough that the members of the Chivalrous Organization neither need nor want to hurt people and rob them. I want to see everyone literate and healthy. I want to be with my family, together." His face worked slightly and he swallowed. "I want my father back, and I want no child to ever have to lose their father again."
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Tua said:
Isn't this bad if Keiko wins (which she likely will)?
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Not exactly. If it works, I think it'll be set up as a false dilemma: either you're with Hazou and his full-Uplift dream, or you're with Keiko and death of humanity. Hazou winning would be straightforwardly good for us, but if Keiko's victory will be horrifying enough, they'll be still wishing Hazou won instead, which means they'll be implicitly supporting him and Uplift. Either way is good for us; perhaps Keiko's victory will be even better, evoking more visceral feelings.

Or at least that's how I see it playing out.
Tua said:
Also maybe make use of our unique ex-missing-nin experiences (henceforth known as "during our travels", and OPSEC sanitized) and tell the audience what we saw. How it made us want to improve the world, regardless of borders. How Noburi healing a kid made a small civilian family immensly happy (shout out to best bro!) and how everyone - ninjas included - would benefit from everyone having increased living standards, be they civilian or ninja.
Mention how we saw Leaf in all its glory, how the people lived there compared to the wilderness and even Mist. Tell them we want this for everyone.

Also some samples of Hazou (and Jiraiya) talking about his Uplift ideals. I added Jiraiya in as well so we can get the support from Leaf due to phrasing it as a Will of Fire thing but we obviously want that and more for the other nations as well.
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Not sure how to elegantly include quotes; I've added some links instead, albeit not to the chapters you quoted.
 
Lailoken said:
Hazou's seals are inherent
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They are the farthest thing from inherent. They are physical objects that can be passed around between people. If there were no ban on seals, and if you were interested in having a Gōketsu win the tournament as opposed to having Hazō win the tournament, then it would make more sense to give them to Keiko. She would then have pangolins and seals whereas Hazō would only have seals.

Lailoken said:
At the very least a candidate should be permitted to use seals which they themselves can scribe and infuse.
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I'm not looking at the docs right now, so I don't remember which seals Hazō can infuse as opposed to which seals he has access to. Which ones are you currently denied that you want to use? Because, to my recollection, the ones that are most significant are ones that he cannot infuse, notably Goo Bomb. That one is Jiraiya-only.

Mist has repeatedly pointed out that Jiraiya is the best sealmaster, and they've referred to how rich Hazō is. Using any seals but the basics is just going to make people say "Oh, so he's using Daddy's toys. Hardly surprising that he's winning if he gets to play with Kage-level equipment and everyone else has to use skills they actually earned."

And, in fact, that's not wrong. A strong case can be made that you won the fifth event because of Goo Bombs, seals that Jiraiya drew and infused that Hazō can't produce. They turned the initial fight from something difficult into something trivial, thereby getting you past your toughest opponents. Yes, you stopped using them after a while and still pulled out wins, but I also stopped rolling after a while and just assumed you won. Now, I do think you would have found a way to pull it off against everyone after Blue Team One, since no one else had long-range, no-LOS jutsu...but that's not the point. The point is that your toughest opponents became nothing but a speed bump because you were using gear made for you by a Kage. That was in fact why I had Keiko point it out -- I wanted you guys to look good on your own merits and close down the option of Mist reversing all the reputation gains you would make by showing off how insanely powerful your team is.

Regardless, how much more impressive would it be for Hazō to win using only seals that every ninja has access to but no one has ever used in this way? It would show off his real strengths / comparative advantage, which are creativity and planning.
 
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Tua said:
Isn't this bad if Keiko wins (which she likely will)?
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That depends. I think Hazou's message should be that the world being difficult to change for the better should be no excuse to stop trying. In that sense, him losing simply means that he lost this time.

Besides, the point here isn't to set Hazou up as some kind of messiah figure, triumphing over impossible odds via the power of determination, but to make the Goketsu - Uplift association stick in the minds of people, lending credibility to our efforts in the future. If we're lucky, it might even make people approach us of their own volition.
 
[x] Speech Plan: The Abject Despair of an Uncaring World

Edit: Incidentally, does Hazou think he could physically throw Keiko out of bounds from, let's say, 10 ft from the wall?
 
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eaglejarl said:
Which ones are you currently denied that you want to use? Because, to my recollection, the ones that are most significant are ones that he cannot infuse, notably Goo Bomb. That one is Jiraiya-only.
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Nitpick: We can infuse Earbusters and Banshee Slayers, and undodgeable enemy-only sonic damage is really good.

Of course, I don't think its really here or there. As pointed out after Hazou's first match, leaking knowledge of our good stuff to the world at large is probably not a great idea. Doubly so if its a seal, and therefore vulnerable to theft through some sort of espionage.

Roomba said:
That depends. I think Hazou's message should be that the world being difficult to change for the better should be no excuse to stop trying. In that sense, him losing simply means that he lost this time.

Besides, the point here isn't to set Hazou up as some kind of messiah figure, triumphing over impossible odds via the power of determination, but to make the Goketsu - Uplift association stick in the minds of people, lending credibility to our efforts in the future. If we're lucky, it might even make people approach us of their own volition.
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Yeah I would agree with that.

I do think we have to be decently subtle in that, or it loses us some credibility.
 
Is there any way we can force Kei to summon multiple pangolins, get rid of said pangolins immediately, and thereby destroy a huge chunk of her chakra?

Something like setting up oil bombs, going underground where only pangolins can chase us, waiting for her to summon, and then setting the bombs off.
 
eaglejarl said:
They are the farthest thing from inherent. They are physical objects that can be passed around between people. If there were no ban on seals, and if you were interested in having a Gōketsu win the tournament as opposed to having Hazō win the tournament, then it would make more sense to give them to Keiko. She would then have pangolins and seals whereas Hazō would only have seals.


I'm not looking at the docs right now, so I don't remember which seals Hazō can infuse as opposed to which seals he has access to. Which ones are you currently denied that you want to use? Because, to my recollection, the ones that are most significant are ones that he cannot infuse, notably Goo Bomb. That one is Jiraiya-only.

Mist has repeatedly pointed out that Jiraiya is the best sealmaster, and they've referred to how rich Hazō is. Using any seals but the basics is just going to make people say "Oh, so he's using Daddy's toys. Hardly surprising that he's winning if he gets to play with Kage-level equipment and everyone else has to use skills they actually earned."

And, in fact, that's not wrong. A strong case can be made that you won the fifth event because of Goo Bombs, seals that Jiraiya Dre and infused that Hazō can't produce. They turned the initial fight from something difficult into something trivial, thereby getting you past your toughest opponents. Yes, you stopped using them after a while and still pulled out wins, but I also stopped rolling after a while and just assumed you won. Now, I do think you would have found a way to pull it off against everyone after Blue Team One, since no one else had long-range, no-LOS jutsu...but that's not the point. The point is that your toughest opponents became nothing but a speed bump because you were using gear made for you by a Kage. That was in fact why I had Keiko point it out -- I wanted you guys to look good on your own merits and close down the option of Mist reversing all the reputation gains you would make by showing off how insanely powerful your team is.

Regardless, how much more impressive would it be for Hazō to win using only seals that every ninja has access to but no one has ever used in this way? It would show off his real strengths / comparative advantage, which are creativity and planning.
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Not to take away from your broader point, but being able to use Macerators in the tournament would've made a very big difference, and Hazou can absolutely infuse those.

And then, the issue with "winning using only seals that every ninja has access to" is that it denies us the ability to conceal what we're doing. See the comprehensive discussion of @Lailoken's Incredibly Stupid Box proposal - we can't effectively pretend it's a jutsu, and letting everyone know that you can use storage seals this way puts us uncomfortably close to the idea of Macerators. We just found a clever and effective way of using Ghost Scales, and nearly upset the geopolitical balance of the Elemental Nations again by doing it in public.

The problem with winning with mundane tools, is that if the method is effective enough, then everyone else can immediately adopt it. I'm personally not that concerned about storage seals getting the recognition they deserve as weapons, but I bet Jiraiya and Keiko would not be amused.
 
faflec said:
Excellent. How thick are the walls, if a Pangolin tried to burrow or climb up one would it collapse?
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Oooooooooh.

Are we playing Whac-a-mole II: Wall Edition now?


MadScientist said:
Is there any way we can force Kei to summon multiple pangolins, get rid of said pangolins immediately, and thereby destroy a huge chunk of her chakra?

Something like setting up oil bombs, going underground where only pangolins can chase us, waiting for her to summon, and then setting the bombs off.
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I'm fairly certain that even summoning Panashe (her least expensive "combat" summon, chakra wise. I think she's more "spec-ops" than combat too) costs more than half of Keiko's chakra. Unless Noburi has fucked us over, I don't see how/why she would do that.
 
MMKII said:
Oooooooooh.

Are we playing Whac-a-mole II: Wall Edition now?



I'm fairly certain that even summoning Panashe (her least expensive "combat" summon, chakra wise. I think she's more "spec-ops" than combat too) costs more than half of Keiko's chakra. Unless Noburi has fucked us over, I don't see how/why she would do that.
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Either she summons someone who can chase us (and thus we can deny her that chakra), or we're allowed to operate underground freely and use subterranean tactics that pangolins would deny us. Win/win.
 
faflec said:
Excellent. How thick are the walls, if a Pangolin tried to burrow or climb up one would it collapse?
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?? It's a quarry -- basically a big pit. The walls are effectively infinitely thick.

EDIT: Also, Keiko's three largest pangolins climbed the same wall at the same time after her victory.

Roomba said:
Not to take away from your broader point, but being able to use Macerators in the tournament would've made a very big difference, and Hazou can absolutely infuse those.
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Macerators are storage seals. If you want to use them, you can. No one will be able to argue as long as you demonstrate in advance that that's all they are.
 
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Honestly, this doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Keiko summons large Pangolin that probably isn't too agile underground. -> Hit and run and area denial tactics using HLAM.
Keiko summons Panache. -> Rush her down and punch her.
Keiko drinks chakra water and summons multiple Pangolins. -> We lose, but at least it's obvious how much she's cheating.

I'll write some feedback for @Noumero's speech in a few minutes.
 
MadScientist said:
Either she summons someone who can chase us (and thus we can deny her that chakra), or we're allowed to operate underground freely and use subterranean tactics that pangolins would deny us. Win/win.
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This was sort of my point on the original battle plan I posted. It was then answered with remarks to the effect of "Sounds like a bad idea, being underground probably means the pangolins can fuck us up pretty good."

My response was: Well, I think thats true if she summons Panashe. But if she summons Pangaya the first round, well, are you honestly telling me that a ninja with Hazou's displayed athleticism with a jutsu active that allows one to (essentially) swim through dirt really fast, is going to lose in a race to a 20ft tall mammal that actually has to dig ?

Cari pointed out that summons (apparently, this is news to me) are not constrained by this whole "Single element" business, and so any one of them might have a tunneling jutsu or a HLaM equivalent. And in that case, we're probably pretty fucked.

Now, if we can hide in the walls I think that's probably more viable. Destroying them might be a problem, and its possible that any digging they do would have to result in a ring out if they have to do it manually (surely they will leave the bounds of the arena somehow if they dig past the walls).
 
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