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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Can a person using HLaM surface completely and then go back underground if the jutsu is still active? Partially? Also, can they HLaM through the walls in the arena?

[X] Action Plan: In Which Our Hero Tries to Assault His Sister

Word count: 294
  • Pre-match preparations:
    • Watch/cheer for ISC's matches.
    • Make several hybrid seals (an explosive seal safely attached to a storage seal, containing a boulder/log). Don't use if unsafe seal combo.
    • Stuff some of your smelly clothes into a small, accessible sack. This can obfuscate our scent and mess with Pangolin tracking.
    • Discuss with Keiko:
      • Yielding if either of us go past Mild Consequences, since if we KO her it might get out that Pangolins go away if Keiko is KO'd.
      • Us mutually agreeing to not abuse Substitution privileges, since we don't want to revoke in case of in-match emergency.
  • Battle:
    • General: Stay out of sight as possible.
    • R1:
      • Supplemental: Substitute into SE Zone.
      • Standard: HLaM. Go underground. Go into SW Wall Zone.
      • Supplemental + Free: Palm some smelly clothes, and drop them (underground).
    • R2:
      • Supplemental: Move aboveground and get information on Keiko's actions/location.
      • Standard: Living Roots.
      • Supplemental: Go back underground.
      • HLaM (Move): Move towards Keiko's Zone. Stick to the walls as possible.
    • R3 onwards:
      • Continue using HLaM to Move underground until in Keiko's Zone.
      • Spend other actions on palming + dropping smelly clothes (underground).
    • Round finale:
      • HLaM: Emerge aboveground.
      • Supplemental: Pantokrator's Hammer (hide handseals in a purchased cloak?).
      • Supplemental: Equip Pangolin Gauntlets.
      • Standard: Punch.
    • Contingencies:
      • Pangaya: Activate + throw a hybrid seal at Keiko, let Pangaya redirect it at her, let the damage Dispel her.
      • CQC Summon: Keep Summon between Keiko/Hazou, blow it up with explosives while going underground to dodge it, Substitute with an object near Keiko...
      • Pangolin going underground: Alpha blitz Keiko.
      • Keiko riding Pangolin: Consider ranged options (SotE, hybrid seals, traps?).
      • Some crazy bullshit we can't beat. Go full defense, try to outlast Keiko's Pangolin. Then punch.
      • Be willing to use Macerators IFF we can disguise its use as a storage seal.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Throw Your Opponent Away

Are we going to add Ghost Scales to the match-restricted jutsu list?

MMKII said:
You'll lose, but you aren't going quietly.
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Proposal to change to: "Now shut up and do the impossible"
MMKII said:
Hey, its me again! Hope you all liked the last fight. Shame about the other guy... he was really tough though! In fact, everyone in this tournament has done a great job, winners and losers alike. I'm glad to be standing here with them. Especially here with Keiko! Anyways folks, I'm the scrappy underdog here so I hope you're all rooting for me!
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This seems kind of out of character, but phrasing is hard (Also @wordcount optimization, we previously were able to write speechplan and fightplan separately. Is that the case here?). Maybe stick to outlines? Greet the crowd, congratulate Kitty Kat and compliment him, general niceties about the tournament, and about our sibling? Friendliness is good here.
MMKII said:
Let's clear something up: I know exactly how fucked I am. A sealmaster without any seals. Outmanned, outgunned, with a mile of red tape preventing me from doing something clever. In the real world this would be a suicide mission.
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This could be seen as making excuses to our defeat prior to it, or just trying to make Kei's victory look smaller. Even if that's the intention, it's too obvious (though I like the suicide mission bit, a little on the nose for Mist). I'd propose something a little more casual, maybe like:
"You know how much stronger you are than I. A ranged weapon user moving in an open arena against a CQC specialist? I'm not meant to oppose you on the battlefield. Not to mention that you're the brains on the team, and I can't expect you to blunder into a dropped explosive tag."
 
[X] Action Plan: In Which Our Hero Tries to Assault His Sister
faflec said:
Rebuttal:
  • Actually, no. Not a rebuttal. Build up on what she said.
  • Sure, things suck. We might lose, and won't that be humiliating? We might die not having improved any part of humanity, and won't that be sad?
  • But that doesn't mean we should give up, it doesn't mean we aren't going to do everything in our power to change things for the better.
  • (Plea for help)
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We can certainly be less defeatist in the speech but I'm not sure how all in we want to go on it?
 
Points to make in speech (this is intended as an outline for insertion into plan, not to be inserted into the plan itself):
  • Accept that the world is shit: Chakra beasts and geographical boundaries prevent cooperation
  • Nonetheless, believe that people can rise above their biases, prejudices, and grudges, no matter how well placed they might be, to make connections with other people, even those they have cause to hate
    • Intentional (and non-noticeable to those unaware) nod to Hana
  • People will always do their best to protect those they love [incomplete thought, intended to be a subtle nudge -- similar to above -- at Ami instead]
  • Acknowledge that the process is slow, but that such a cycle of hatred will only lead to more hatred, and harm all involved
    • Use quotes both from Yagura's My Vision and Hashirama
    • Tie in own (OPSEC-sanitary) experiences at the Chuunin exams and elsewhere
  • Close with a powerful statement of unity intended to rile up the crowds
 
Sentient Tree said:
Was there something wrong with selling ad space, or is there just not enough support for it to make updating two plans worthwhile (or just sticking with adspace plan)?
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A lot of people think its stupid, is the impression I'm getting.

Cariyaga said:
  • Accept that the world is shit: Chakra beasts and geographical boundaries prevent cooperation
  • Nonetheless, believe that people can rise above their biases, prejudices, and grudges, no matter how well placed they might be, to make connections with other people, even those they have cause to hate
    • Intentional (and non-noticeable to those unaware) nod to Hana
  • People will always do their best to protect those they love [incomplete thought, intended to be a subtle nudge -- similar to above -- at Ami instead]
  • Acknowledge that the process is slow, but that such a cycle of hatred will only lead to more hatred, and harm all involved
    • Use quotes both from Yagura's My Vision and Hashirama
    • Tie in own (OPSEC-sanitary) experiences at the Chuunin exams and elsewhere
  • Close with a powerful statement of unity intended to rile up the crowds
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Speaking frankly I think this the sort of thing I think would be a mistake to put in.

We're talking to a bunch of peasants (whose great great grandfathers have been ignored by their ninja overlords, starved to death, murdered by squirrels, etc.) and their superpowered overlords in the middle of 1984-land.

This would feel super cheesy contextually and fairly on the nose. Especially when Keiko is present to verbally rip us to shreds.
 
MMKII said:
A lot of people think its stupid, is the impression I'm getting.


Speaking frankly I think this the sort of thing I think would be a mistake to put in.

We're talking to a bunch of peasants (whose great great grandfathers have been ignored by their ninja overlords, starved to death, murdered by squirrels, etc.) and their superpowered overlords in the middle of 1984-land.

This would feel super cheesy contextually and fairly on the nose. Especially when Keiko is present to verbally rip us to shreds.
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These are peasants, most of whom (probably) don't know how to read, and the closest to an inspiring speech they've gotten prior to the last few months was from Yagura.
 
Uplift speechifying notes:
- "Yes, I know I'm likely to lose. I'm here anyway. In the real world, you don't get to set your mission odds. All you can do is see the duty that's set before you and do your damned best to accomplish it."
- "You're fighting for what? To tell me civilians aren't worth wasting Ninja time on? Why do you care? The fact you need to fight me is proof that you're taking me seriously."
- "You're fighting for a world that you know is terrible. A world where compassion, love and empathy have to be set aside, a world where Ninja must become emotionless tools to protect themselves."
- "You're fighting from the Mori ice, for that voice in your head telling you that change is impossible."
- "And that's why you'll lose. Maybe not this match, maybe not now. But the Will Of Fire endures. The same Will Of Fire that I know burns in your own chest, the desire to help, to heal, to raise up."
- "Don't pretend to me that you have no regrets."

Meet her damn eyes.

- "You, of all people, should know what it's like to be lost."
- "And you, of all people, should know what it is to find family again."
 
A bit late on this, but I forgot:
Velorien said:
Hazō wasn't going into that meeting with a dramatic intervention in his mind. Ami had rejected Keiko as a traitor, and severed her most important bond without hesitation as soon as they were reunited. What did you say to someone like that? How did you reconcile Keiko's portrayal of Ami as the holy of holies with the actions of someone who would hurt their family?

But Hazō wasn't about to make the same mistake he'd made with Mari-sensei. Never again. This time, he'd get to know Ami first, and try to understand her before passing judgement. He had the chance to gain an objectivity that Keiko never would, and maybe further down the road that could be a tool to help heal the rift between them.
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NotAgain.gif
 
MMKII said:
The Pre-Match Speech:
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MMKII said:
The Pre-Match Speech:
  • Greet the crowd
    • Hey, its me again! Hope you all liked the last fight. Shame about the other guy... he was really tough though! In fact, everyone in this tournament has done a great job, winners and losers alike. I'm glad to be standing here with them. Especially here with Keiko!
    • Anyways folks, I'm the scrappy underdog here so I hope you're all rooting for me!
  • Let Keiko begin her cynicism spiel, likely about how easily she will demolish us or a cold denouncement of our foolish optimism.
    • Listen intently, bright-eyed and with a small smile.
  • Rebuttal:
    • Let's clear something up: I know exactly how fucked I am. A sealmaster without any seals. Outmanned, outgunned, with a mile of red tape preventing me from doing something clever. In the real world this would be a suicide mission.
    • But I'm here anyway.
    • Besides, I promised a good friend that I'd do my best.
    • Let's get to the fight already.
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faflec said:
The Pre-Match Speech:
  • Greet the crowd
    • Hey, its me again! Hope you all liked the last fight. Shame about the other guy... he was really tough though! In fact, everyone in this tournament has done a great job, winners and losers alike. I'm glad to be standing here with them. Especially here with Keiko!
    • Anyways folks, I'm the scrappy underdog here so I hope you're all rooting for me!
  • Let Keiko begin her cynicism spiel, likely about how easily she will demolish us or a cold denouncement of our foolish optimism.
    • Listen intently, bright-eyed and with a small smile.
  • Rebuttal:
    • Actually, no. Not a rebuttal. Build up on what she said.
    • Sure, things suck. We might lose, and won't that be humiliating? We might die not having improved any part of humanity, and won't that be sad?
    • But that doesn't mean we should give up, it doesn't mean we aren't going to do everything in our power to change things for the better.
    • I suck at writing speeches, please help.
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No, no, no. Didn't we agree with Keiko to not do this silliness? We're not insulting each other's capability, we're having a heated debate about the viability of our dreams. Like this:
  • Greet the crowd.
    • Assert that, despite everything, you're genuinely enjoying the Exams and everything they represent: international cooperation and diplomacy, a chance to mingle with different cultures and other-minded people. Doesn't that paint a picture of a better possible world?
  • Let Keiko respond.
    • She would likely note that this event is not about cooperation at all: every village still cares only about itself, and Exams only happen because peace and diplomacy are moderately more advantageous to them at the moment.
  • Continue verbal sparring from there, drawing from your past discussions with Mari, Jiraiya, and each other.
  • By the end, your fight should be framed as a fight about ideals:
    • Hazou's victory should represent victory of Uplift, a triumph of humanity.
    • Keiko's victory should represent triumph of the uncaring world, evoking horror and despair.
Or something along these lines, I don't know. I'd like to set up a Xanatos Gambit, where no matter who wins, it'd generate interest in our cause — so that when we fail, it wouldn't be just the status quo dismissing our foolish optimism. I think the framing above works: if done correctly, Keiko winning would be so convincingly terrifying that the crowd wouldn't be able to cheer for it, would instead wish Hazou won after all.
 
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Noumero said:
No, no, no. Didn't we agree with Keiko to not do this silliness? We're not insulting each other's capability, we're having a heated debate about the viability of our dreams. Like this:
  • Greet the crowd.
    • Assert that, despite everything, you're genuinely enjoying the Exams and everything they represent: international cooperation and diplomacy, a chance to mingle with different cultures and other-minded people with no fear. Doesn't that paint a picture of a better possible world?
  • Start verbal sparring with Keiko.
    • She would likely note that this event is not about cooperation at all: every village still cares only about itself, and Exams only happen because peace and diplomacy are moderately more advantageous to them at the moment.
  • Continue on from there, drawing from your past discussions with Keiko, Mari, Jiraiya.
  • By the end, your fight should be framed as a fight about ideals:
    • Hazou's victory should represent victory of Uplift, a triumph of humanity.
    • Keiko's victory should represent triumph of the uncaring world, evoking horror and despair.
Or something along these lines, I don't know. I'd like to set up a Xanatos Gambit, where no matter who wins, it'd generate interest in our cause — so that when we fail, it wouldn't be just the status quo dismissing our foolish optimism. I think the framing above works: if done correctly, Keiko winning would be so convincingly terrifying that the crowd wouldn't be able to cheer for it, would instead wish Hazou won after all.
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I thought we were doing some sort of conflict of ideals debate type nonsense? This comes down to a philosophy debate and/or highbrow shittalk compared to your average insult trade, but it needs to come off confrontational in some way regardless though right?

Regardless I can probably edit some stuff in after picking it over tomorrow morning.
 
Cariyaga said:
Uh. Keiko's gonna win. Why are we framing her victory in that light?
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Because we have agreed to:
Velorien said:
"What about pre-battle trash talk? I obviously don't want to actually hurt your feelings, and I'm hoping you don't want to hurt mine. How about one of my classic Uplift speeches? That's another thing I haven't done for a while, and I can feel it starting to gnaw at me." <...>

"I believe verbal sparring would suit our respective proclivities best. You can represent optimism and hope, while I will be the voice of cynicism seeking to drag you back into this vale of tears after each section. Properly performed, it could engage the audience much more effectively than a simple speech, and it would be far more enjoyable—at least, for me." <...>

"Let's do it. You have the pangolins, but I have the power."
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I don't think backing down on this would be a particularly good idea, so I'm trying to figure out how to frame our failure in this battle in a beneficial to us way.
MMKII said:
I thought we were doing some sort of conflict of ideals debate type nonsense? This comes down to a philosophy debate and/or highbrow shittalk compared to your average insult trade, but it needs to come off confrontational in some way regardless though right?
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Yes. I think my draft does this, though?
 
MMKII said:
I thought we were doing some sort of conflict of ideals debate type nonsense? This comes down to a philosophy debate and/or highbrow shittalk compared to your average insult trade, but it needs to come off confrontational in some way regardless though right?

Regardless I can probably edit some stuff in after picking it over tomorrow morning.
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What's highbrow about an argument about whether you, nameless civilian #375, should be treated as more than chattel by your ninja superiors?

If anything I'm worried about it being too real & close to home.
 
Edit: SV's tally has been fixed. Pay no attention to this post.​

Greetings. I'm your new vote-tallying program.
  • Pros:
    • 99.9% less glitches.
  • Cons:
    • Irregular update schedule.
    • Possibility of value drift leading to deliberate misrepresentation of votes distribution.
 
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Cariyaga said:
  • Mechanical Outline
    • Round 0: While on the podium, or before it: Palm a training explosive
    • Round 1: Enter arena (supplemental),place a Taijutsu Block on Keiko (standard). It is inactive until and unless she is in the same zone. Substitute into her zone reactively when she enters the arena to activate the Block (supplemental).
    • Round 2: (supplemental)Pantokrator's Hammer, (supplemental) activate Training Explosive, apply to Keiko and attempt to throw her out of the arena using the training explosive as additional propulsion (standard).
    • Round 3: If ringing her out didn't work, try to take out her pangolin. This line of play is a losing one, but it's the only real possibility for victory.
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Note that the rules are "empty hands until you're in the arena". If someone spots the palmed explosive and you are still holding it when you move into the arena, you're probably DQ'd instantly.

Blocks are never inactive -- they either exist or they don't.

I'm waiting for word back from @Velorien and/or @OliWhail, but my understanding of the intent of Reflexive Casting was that it's for jutsu that can be used reactively. That means you can Substitute away from an attack when it's not your turn, and Noburi can cast his Water Whip to defend himself, but it doesn't let you take a proactive action off turn.

Adam and Jamie tell me that explosives are actually terrible for propelling humans, so that's not going to help.

Someone (@Cariyaga, I think? Maybe @MMKII?) pointed out that the rules don't actually state that you can't set up a Block against someone that's not in your zone. There is still discussion about that in QM chat, so I'm not sure how it's going to shake out. Depending on whether or not I can catch up with the others in the morning (taking into account my readily apparent terrible sleep choices), I might say "Yes, it will work this time but maybe not in the future if we end up ruling against it." If I do manage to get with them and sort it out then the answer might be "No, it doesn't work at all."



MMKII said:
Could we create a Range 1 Taijutsu block (On Keiko doing anything in any zone we are in/any surrounding zones) if we palm a macerator/storage seal filled with ammo and punched with it?
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See above discussion. Regardless, even if we do come down on the side of allowing ranged Blocks, I wouldn't be inclined to let this one work. A taijutsu block needs to either be grappling or some sort of reasonable threat -- a flurry of blows that keeps the person dodging, for example. One punch with a chunk of rock flying out doesn't sound like something that would stop someone from doing anything for multiple seconds.

FieryStarVictory said:
But how does Chakra water work then?
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Brilliantly.

FieryStarVictory said:
Yeah but that means chakra can be stored.
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There's an equivocation here that's causing confusion: chakra can be "stored" (contained in) water by the power of the Wakahisa bloodline. It cannot be "stored" (put into an extradimensional space created by a seal) in a storage scroll.

faflec said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Can a person using HLaM surface completely and then go back underground if the jutsu is still active? Partially? Also, can they HLaM through the walls in the arena?
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I am fairly confident of these answers but it's possible that I'll get overruled: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Paperclipped said:
Also @wordcount optimization, we previously were able to write speechplan and fightplan separately. Is that the case here?
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Yes, you can do that.
 
-and we are back to discussing how to best lose to our waif of a stepsister instead of how to flip the profoundly misweighted table with overwhelming crowd support.

Y'know what what taijutsu block would keep an opponent occupied for multiple seconds at range? A pair of palmed storage seals hurling 400kg of flaming oil at them at the speed of a taijutsu-specialist ninja punch.

We can even pretend that it's a jutsu and call it the "Hazou-ken".
 
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It seems pretty simple. Use our money, brother, and speech to drum up sympathy and pressure with the crowd to cover any loss and increase the chances of the winner having lots more toys available in the finals, then throw ridiculous amounts of fire around. The GMs may fiat-nix enveloping the entire arena in a single turn, but we are still trivially capable of hurling multiple body-weights of choking, flaming perdition at our opponent every turn.

Screw uplift speeches. Screw advertising. Screw losing well. Let's at least make a show of this, make Mist pay through the PR nose for crippling us, and perhaps even win.
 
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Lailoken said:
Screw uplift speeches. Screw advertising. Screw losing well. Let's at least make a show of this and make Mist pay through the PR nose for crippling us and perhaps even win.
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But why? Why should we try to ensure Hazou wins here, instead of Keiko? Convince me.

I think I have a pretty good (new) idea of how to defeat Keiko, and I'm willing to vote-in the firestorm provided we sanity-check it with Jiraiya first, but I see no reason to let the arsenal-crippled Hazou advance, instead of Keiko. Why would we decrease the chance that a Gouketsu wins the tournament?
 
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Noumero said:
But why? Why should we try to ensure Hazou wins here, instead of Keiko? Convince me.

I think I have a pretty good (new) idea of how to defeat Keiko, and I'm willing to vote-in the firestorm provided we sanity-check it with Jiraiya first, but I see no reason to let the arsenal-crippled Hazou advance, instead of Keiko. Why would we decrease the chance that a Gouketsu wins the tournament?
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She won't get away with chakra-water again. With seals unrestricted and chakra-water still restricted the competitive gap is much smaller. Even if she does win, working the crowd will soften the effect on Hazou's reputation and make her more dangerous in the next round through access to more seals. Heck, we could even let her win and it would still be a good strategy.
 
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