Vote for something else, it's getting kind of tiresome seeing people act like I must not be serious. I would be fine with Armageddon Initiative. If you aren't that's fair and cool but just vote for something else or at least try to convince me not to or something.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
I don't think we should bring up the dragon war as a reason to avoid or delay punishment as there is considerable opportunity for Itachi to ask for terrible punishments that don't meaningfully impact Konoha's ability to contribute. It would be easy for Itachi to twist the argument back on Hazo by presenting such a punishment and then placing him in the position of arguing in favor of it to Konoha. Any reason for why Akatsuki should foreswear justice / deterrence could just as easily be applied to Konoha accepting any punishment that doesn't jeopardize the capabilities of the few elites who will be contributing to the dragon war.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
It's a funny joke, sure, but it's functionally "end the quest" as a vote. Do you see a future for the story here beyond the point where we make that vote? Something beyond the inevitable bad end for us and whoever we managed to take down with us? Something that continues pulling on the threads that have been laid all this time? I honestly don't. Best case scenario, we get an epilogue-style view of the fallout and then start over from scratch with a new character, and even that throws the vast majority of what we've built here out the window.
I like this quest. I want to see it keep going, I want the stuff it's set up to pay off. It's only natural that I would be upset at other players trying to unceremoniously end it all, laughing all the while. It's just not funny when someone points a gun at something you love, and says they'd actually be fine with pulling the trigger. Call me a killjoy, call it 'tiresome', I'm not going to just keep my feelings to myself when you're threatening something I care so much about.
Inferno Vulpix raises a good point. I wouldn't put it beyond the writers to go with Armageddon Initiative if it wins.
I am putting my vote here in the hope of warding off Armageddon Initiative. Someone else will have to write it up formally if there is a structure requirement.
[X] Akatsuki may die but will rise again harder and stronger
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I have faith in the QMs' ability to write something disastrous and give the next character something to do if it comes to that. I don't think it'd end the quest and as time goes by I become less attached to Leaf. With that said if the QMs explicitly don't like the Armageddon Initiative and don't want to write it then I'll put it aside and think of something else to do.
Yeah uh... that's understandable. For what it's worth, I also care about the quest but I think in an entirely different way—I like it as a fun story, and sometimes as a puzzle/challenge. I've given up on relating to it as a thing to take fully seriously and become strongly invested in specific outcomes.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
We have a variety of cards we can play, none of them slam-dunk successes but plenty of options worth a non-zero amount in various possible outcomes here. Let's look at some overall strategies we might employ and how that affects what cards we can play.
Minimalist: we keep our head down and let the others among the council handle things (especially Tsunade, acting Hokage). We keep our contributions inoffensive and minimize our involvement.
Incidentally, some things I expect to happen outside of Hazou's control:
Minimalist: we keep our head down and let the others among the council handle things (especially Tsunade, acting Hokage). We keep our contributions inoffensive and minimize our involvement.
- The main card we can play here is contributing to material reparations. We have a bunch of money, goods, and means to obtain both that we could likely make a sizeable contribution.
- Scrutiny may come upon us no matter how much we keep our head down, though, given our role in inventing skyslicers and funding the Akane mission in the first place. If this happens, we need to be prepared to defend ourself and/or play other cards that arise from us being in the spotlight like this.
- EM stays secret, no matter what.
- We should have Something to Say if we go down this route, because we're drawing the spotlight onto us specifically, at least for a moment.
- This is where we'd be able to directly converse with Itachi and, potentially, leverage our past conversation with him to some degree or another.
- More broadly, this is where we might bring out a speech, try to reframe some crucial aspect of the situation, or something along those lines.
- We may still have to face scrutiny about our role in skyslicers/the mission, and the context in which we respond to that will differ if we're proactively in the spotlight as opposed to being dragged into it.
- EM stays secret, no matter what.
- Our contributions here should aim towards mollifying Akatsuki and making the price the rest of Leaf has to pay smaller. Tsunade is still in control of the meeting and doing her darndest to keep Leaf intact, we're just supporting her.
- Invoking the dragonwar is a must here. It's an X-risk threat that the Akatsuki are relevant to and which Asuma is relevant to and if you squint there's a case there that might fly, to convince the other parties here to give us a chance to speechify.
- This also likely involves drawing the focus onto ourselves for the skyslicer and Akane mission side of the question, which means we'd have to avoid being branded culpable and possibly being executed as punishment.
- Further revelations like lithosealing or necromancy might be necessary to shore up whatever direction we want to take this. This strategy is the place where such a move would be even conceivable.
- EM stays secret, no matter what.
Incidentally, some things I expect to happen outside of Hazou's control:
- A currently outstanding question is what the Akatsuki want out of this. Are there specific demands from the various other members? How much does Leaf need to be punished, as a separate requirement from what Akatsuki gains in return? What are the Akatsuki planning with respect to AMITY?
- Not coached in as many words, of course, but I expect Tsunade, Shikamaru, et al. to be probing for that information in the opening stages.
- No matter what the middle of the negotiation is packed with, at the end of it the clan council will have to vote. Itachi Uchiha leaning over our shoulders is a good incentive for everyone to cooperate with the group consensus, but we should still remain aware of it. The last thing we need is for Ritsuo to doom us all in a fit of transcendental spite.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Just offer to give them money/iron ore/gold/gems. Lots of it. We can churn that out easily. Of course, we want to to tell Tsunade to do this so...
And we shouldn't even think of touching 3D sealing here.
And we shouldn't even think of touching 3D sealing here.
I don't think that there is any level of material resources that can compensate Akatsuki for the loss of combat power and precedent of killing Akatsuki members through "accidents". This is even before getting into the anger Akatsuki will feel once it inevitably comes out that Konoha tricked them and avoided any real punishment through the use of Hazo's new Earth Shaping trick.
I think we should suggest a tithe of goods, confer with Tsunade if possible, explain our capabilities, and let her handle negotiations. As for being pressed about the seals... emphasize that all of this resulted from Hidan's choices and let Tsunade or another social press that angle of attack, I guess?
Itachi very directly told us that he was willing to discuss material reparations. I suspect things being Hidan's fault mitigated the circumstances significantly enough for that. I don't think too many people really care about Konoha being punished. The image of Konoha being punished and the wealth in their hands is already significant.
Itachi very directly told us that he was willing to discuss material reparations. I suspect things being Hidan's fault mitigated the circumstances significantly enough for that. I don't think too many people really care about Konoha being punished. The image of Konoha being punished and the wealth in their hands is already significant.
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@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien
Is there a cultural concept of weregild in the EN? Some way that countries usually do things when someone got killed, but they want to descalate?
For example, the US paid ~62 million dollars to the families of Iran Air Flight 655. So this is a useful tool for countries to have.
It stands to reason that this situation has occurred in the past and there is precedent.
Is there a cultural concept of weregild in the EN? Some way that countries usually do things when someone got killed, but they want to descalate?
For example, the US paid ~62 million dollars to the families of Iran Air Flight 655. So this is a useful tool for countries to have.
It stands to reason that this situation has occurred in the past and there is precedent.
- Location
- Fifth Dimension
Itachi says they'll take money.
This is just something no one should ever know or should ever let them be privy to. Just Goketsu producing the gems/ore/gold to the Hokage. No questions asked.
Spector29
It Only Gets Worse From Here
No he didn't. He's negotiating for whatever Akatsuki believes "recompense" is. He quotes noted money-lover Kazuku when talking about putting a price on death, but doesn't actually specify himself.
Can you provide to a link to where he says this? My understandings that Itachi justs says that Konoho must pay a price with no indication of it being limited to material goods. I was thinking something more along the lines of an epic biblical punishment like death of the first born or the extermination of the Sarutobi clan. This would fit the need for Akatsuki to deter any future "accidents" as the absence of such deterrence means it is only a matter of time until the Villages seek to repeat the feat.
Here are the exact words.
I like the concept of weregild in fiction and real history, but it isn't really applicable in this situation. The death of innocent civilians is something considerably different from the elimination of a major portion of your total military power. This would be something more akin to an accidental nuclear strike destroying a major port city and the accompanying fleet.
There is also the issue of a difference in power. Iran had no real way to demand recompse from the United States other than relying on international public opinion and war guilt. The overwhelming impalance of power meant they had to accept whatever recompose the U.S was willing to offer. It is fundamentally different from the paradigm here where Akatsuki is quite capable of destroying Konoha and has no reason to hold back other than moral concern for innocents, world stability, and the dragon war.
Why would he bring up Kakuzu loving money then? So Tsunade can offer them money and he can be like "no, actually we want Hazou's head on a spike" it's a dumb way to negotiate. Weakens his position.
There aren't really IRL analogies, because one person is never such a high proportion of an entire countrie's military power, but this is more akin to a mutual aircraft shootdown or a border incident.
Perhaps you could argue it's more like a deescalation after the first nukes have been exchanged. But there's still fault on both sides.
It's just an example of when a government would find it useful to have it as a tool.
Regardless the power differential is almost irrelevant, Akatsuki is quite literally here asking for recompense rather than attacking, I'm just trying to figure out what to offer.
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Spector29
It Only Gets Worse From Here
Because someone as money motivated as Kazuku would've been willing to negotiate payment over a death, even a very significant one. Itachi is bringing that up as a way to explain why Akatsuki is willing to open talks. It doesn't mean they're here asking for strictly cash and currency exchangeable equivalents.
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I interpreted this a poetical means of saying they are willing to negotiate on a punishment rather than treating it as a declaration of or attacking to unilaterally deliver whatever punishment they feel is appropriate.
I agree that Akatsuki is showing a remarkable willingness to negotiate when considering the significance of their loss. My point is that Itachi will still need demand a truly harsh punishment if he is to satisfy the grievance of his comrades and deter future attempts to mastermind "accidents".
PS: I was thinking about more about your comparison and realized that there actually was a reasonably close example of weregild in canon. It was Konoha turning over Hizashi Hyguuga for execution as recompense for the death of the Kumo ambassador.
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Important to note: almost all of this council was NOT initially onboard for appealing for peace, let alone paying for it.
I would like the winning plan to instruct Hazou to actively interrupt other Leaf parties if their discussion turns against paying for peace for more than a sentence or two, and to vehemently argue for finding terms the Akatsuki will accept.
it would really suck for Hazou to sit by while Leaf tells Itatchi "Nuh-uh", then gets exploded.
I would like the winning plan to instruct Hazou to actively interrupt other Leaf parties if their discussion turns against paying for peace for more than a sentence or two, and to vehemently argue for finding terms the Akatsuki will accept.
it would really suck for Hazou to sit by while Leaf tells Itatchi "Nuh-uh", then gets exploded.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
I was thinking that but unironically
MARI: *snerk*
Death and taxes, he's not having both
Do we want Sasori to be aware of
I don't care that this gets us killed instantly, but I do care that this will vindicate Hagoromo Ritsuo. Please, let's not give this idiot a foot to stand on. Let's not die before we have a chance to remind everyone he officially branded the current Hokage a heretic.
There is, we were told to pay some for destroying Hagoromo's knife with the same trick that killed Kakuzu.
Does he?
Here's a proto-plan, but I hope others who are more used to plan-making and thinking this through can improve on it rather than anyone voting for it (unless you must)
(Word count: 298)
[X] Inaction Plan (But Be Prepared)
- Main basis is trust Tsunade and the jōnin to handle it better than us. Unless asked, say nothing. Right now they're talking and that's good.
- If asked, be useful. Provide what information on the situation we can if Clans are asked anything. For instance, "Hidan struck first" if relevant.
- Keep OPSEC if at all possible. If the cat's out of the bag on our Dragon-/Kakuzu-killing trap, still don't give specifics or everyone can + will recreate it everywhere - it's deadly but purely defensive.
- Actively analyse if things risk going south (heated speech, pissed Itachi), if a resolution seems possible, or if they're getting stuck with no resolution.
- Anything looks bad: we intervene constructively, not defensively.
- Anything looks good: we're proactive in trying to help peace along.
- They're getting stuck: offer gems and/or iron ore. We have ridiculous amounts of those. We can "do our part" (invites others to participate, makes us look good)
- In case of intervention:
- Stance with Itachi: slightly-modified Summer Lake. Add only factual information, no affect of our own, he wants to solve it through peace and we're going to let him.
- If there was any finger-pointing, say we designed the trap that killed Kakuzu, not to trap Hidan and Kakuzu here, but for general Tower protection. If no one said "he died to a trap," it sounds much better than "we killed him."
- Stance with other Clans: Melding Streams. We have a lot to offer and strongly believe in snatching peace from the jaws of war, like Amori. We do respect their seniority as ninja, as Leaf ninja, and as Clan Heads, and whatever they can add to the discussion, especially as regards politics. We can solve this, together.
- Stance with Tsunade: Incoming Tide wherein she leads. Anything she says, goes.
- Stance with Itachi: slightly-modified Summer Lake. Add only factual information, no affect of our own, he wants to solve it through peace and we're going to let him.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her/They/Them
They fully believed that just asking for peace would be an uphill battle and that we'd need to grovel before we could even begin to talk, though. Itachi already being there and talking is a big thing.
Still might be a good idea to cut down the number of people in the room before getting into the negotiations. Maybe just Tsunade, Naruto, Shikamaru, Hazo, and Kurenai? I think that would include all the relevant experts and representatives of the aggrieved while still allowing for compromise without as much concern for reputation or disruptions from the more simplistic (Hagoromo in particular) council members.