Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

RandomOTP · Jul 17, 2023

Eh, Asuma's not in a favorable position. He's the best option Leaf has, but that doesn't mean he's a good option. He can't diplomacy the way that Hiruzen did, and he can't threaten the way that Jiraiya did.

Edit: So Asuma's stuck doing the best that he can, holding the fort until Naruto is ready. Besides, Asuma's had some pretty golden moments, too. His contest, the clanless chunnin exam, approving of MARI, signing the Consort Bill into law, etc.

ProperAttorney said:
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he can use those big Thinker connections of his to figure out a better way forward.

To be fair, we're not certain how much the Hokages are read into the Five Conspiracy. Jiraiya didn't seem to know all that much about it, and even warned us in his Last Letter about letting Shikaku getting too many hooks in us, because while Shikaku might've been an "ally," he wasn't necessarily a "friend"

Oneiros · Jul 17, 2023

RandomOTP said:
He's the best option Leaf has,

How can he be when Mari is right there?

Velorien · Jul 17, 2023

ProperAttorney said:
Or he can keep doing nothing and Hidan will keep turning up, killing people, and everyone will blame Hazo because (???).

Who is blaming Hazō for what?

Sir Stompy · Jul 17, 2023

Velorien said:
Who is blaming Hazō for what?

IDK, blaming Hazou for looking incredibly suspicious probably. To be fair, Hidan liking Hazou so much is incredibly suspicious, and Hazou is a much easier target than Asuma.

Rafin · Jul 17, 2023

acidshill said:
I'm pretty sure we have a flag system, or at least did at the old estate. I specifically remember either Jin or Yudai misusing it to get laid in one of the testing grounds.

Those were "do not disturb flags" set up by the sealsmith, which may or may not get updated during each phase of research. I mean the other way around, where non-sealsmiths have a quick way to signal or communicate stuff to the VIP sealsmiths (mostly Hazō who is also clan head) instead of waiting 8+ hours to signal something of serious urgency just because they are worried about reality ripping apart.

ProperAttorney said:
Re: the second point, we can totally fault Asuma for being such a weak Hokage that any and all S rankers are able to stroll into and out of Leaf at will. He wants all the power and privilege of being Hokage? Then he has to actually protect the Hidden Leaf, not allow mass murderers to ritually sacrifice entire villages without so much as a slap on the wrist.

Are we supposed to blame Asuma for not having good XP modifiers? He's a weak Hokage because Naruto is too young, Tsunade is too disinterested and Orochimaru is too fucking evil. If we want a better Hokage we've got to resurrect one.

ProperAttorney said:
Maybe he can use those big Thinker connections of his to figure out a better way forward.

His big Thinker connections are teenagers where his father had adults.

Look, Asuma is a good person. He is progressive, relatively level headed (though a bit too genocidal) and open to new ideas. And he is all that despite being probably the strongest A-rank jōnin fighter of the Village. But he is not S-rank, where all other Hokage were. He is not made for the job, the way the job is designed. The Hokage is supposed to act like the strongest magical ninja in the nation, to be the strongest magical ninja in the nation, and Asuma has to consistently pretend to be that when everybody of import knows that it's actually not clear who among him, his wife, Akamichi Chōza, or two former Mist nin take fourth place. Compared to an obviously weak Kage like Kurosawa Ren his only advantages until recently were a summoning contract, some useful ninjutsu and the fact that almost everyone actually likes him and the legacy he represents. Now he also has nukes. Which we gave him and which he is supposed to keep secret. The only reason he was unanimously voted in was because all other Clan Heads are teenagers or B-listers of middling talent.

Edit: I'd actually really would like to see the bingo book entrances for the current voting Clan Heads that are not canon Naruto characters. I don't even remember the names of any of them but Ritsuo and don't know if most of them even made special jōnin.

Shrooms · Jul 17, 2023

Oneiros said:
How can he be when Mari is right there?

Mari doesn't have EM nuke 😔

(Unless she snuck away to Isan after she deduced EM nuke but before Isan got totaled)

Shrooms · Jul 17, 2023

Sir Stompy said:
IDK, blaming Hazou for looking incredibly suspicious probably. To be fair, Hidan liking Hazou so much is incredibly suspicious, and Hazou is a much easier target than Asuma.

I don't think Asuma has blamed Hazou for Hidan showing up, in fact thus far we have no reason to think anyone blames him for Hidan showing up, people are just upset bc they think Hidan converted him to Jashinism

Rafin · Jul 17, 2023

Shrooms said:
Mari doesn't have EM nuke 😔

Does Mari have the fire element? If yes then I seriously regret that we didn't teach her before testing.

RandomOTP · Jul 17, 2023

Rafin said:
Does Mari have the fire element? If yes then I seriously regret that we didn't teach her before testing.

She may have learned it offscreen, but no. To my knowledge, Mari has Water Element, Lightning Element, and Wind Element.

She has been FOOMing, however, and may have spent that new XP on learning new elements. She does need pyramid supports to raise her socials higher, after all.

EDIT: And Taijutsu. She started out the quest with Taijutsu 50, iirc, and that's nothing to turn your nose up at. Especially for a social spec.

Inferno Vulpix · Jul 17, 2023

Oneiros said:
How can he be when Mari is right there?

Mari hates leadership so much that when she was leading a genin team she wound up putting one of the genin in charge

(Hazou, specifically. I don't think she's done that with her current genin team yet, but it might be only a matter of time.)

Velorien · Jul 17, 2023

Inferno Vulpix said:
Mari hates leadership so much that when she was leading a genin team she wound up putting one of the genin in charge

(Hazou, specifically. I don't think she's done that with her current genin team yet, but it might be only a matter of time.)

Meanwhile, somewhere in the Snow Country:

"The blizzard's picking up. What do we do, Temporary Captain Minori?"

"We keep going. I'm sure Mari-sensei will catch up to us any day now, just like she promised."

acidshill · Jul 17, 2023

Ah, Snow Country. Those were the days...

Sir Stompy · Jul 17, 2023

Rafin said:
Does Mari have the fire element? If yes then I seriously regret that we didn't teach her before testing.

She does not, Wind, Water, Lightening

Iris-Iven-Ibis · Jul 17, 2023

Rafin said:
Sooo... Sealing research is only dangerous during infusion. Distractions during either inscribing or preparatory rituals and reading of environmental signs (like astrological alignment and such) only cause annoying setbacks if the sealmaster isn't an idiot who doesn't start over when unsure. On top of that, in between every individual step (like when we move between dancing and looking at star charts, or between meditating on the Out and triple checking paper quality) distractions aren't actually an issue at all. Nor do distractions during all the copious theory work do anything but potentially disrupt a thought at the cusp of insight. Hell, given how long sealing research takes, I am sure Hazō also takes breaks for water, food and toilet usage.

Of course those of our minions who know nothing about sealing can't know which stage of research we are at in any given moment. So here's what we need to do:
Set up a way that allows people to send us a message or signal that doesn't distract us at all through sound or visual disruptions. Something as simple as a way to place short written messages in a neighboring room or on a window we aren't facing when we work would be enough. Or a little flag, with the color signaling urgency (red being the highest that isn't yet worth risking sealing failure). If sealing research is literally too dangerous for anyone to approach even the field that the research bunker is located at then just make the flag bigger and hoist it up on a mast. Then Hazō (or Kagome or any other Gokētsu researcher) make a habit of looking at the place the message/flag is located whenever they have a moment in between delicate work and stupid stuff like this doesn't happen again.

How do we implement a policy like that? Just vote for it similar to how we voted for what to keep secret from outer circle Gokētsu ninja?

This sounds like a good idea we probably have to figure out a way to simply change it fast but this would be great way in case of emergency to know if it's a good idea to take a seal Master out of their work

Nebulus · Jul 18, 2023

Shrooms said:
just rez j and make him do it, we're at the goddamn finish line

For all we know the expedition itself will be more complicated than expected, or we might need to move the rift, and the project needs several more months. I agree that "just rez j and make him do it" is an ideal outcome, but we might have several months worth of drama to deal with. This could slow us down a lot. Can't we just assign a SC to damage control/lord duties/propaganda at all time?

acidshill said:
Also @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped were you still planning on a vote for what Hazou actually believes, re Jashin and Jashinism? This could make a difference for what rolls we're making.

They did. Based on the last 2-option vote ('is Hazou a sincere Jashin devout/fanatic, or is he exploiting Jashin to advance his projects'), we were overwhelming in favour of a mercenary relationship with Jashin. Some players (disclamer: me included) wished for more subtilty in the options, but the QMs were clear that this vote was to answer the question 'is Hazou's devotion to Jashin sincere enough to convince other practitioners?'
Unless that vote was canceled in the end?

Sir Stompy said:
No other jinchuuriki is the combination of friendly and Jiraiya oriented.

[X] kidnap the half-gods

RandomOTP said:
Hazou battled Orochimaru's Aura several times. He passed out, pissing and shitting himself, but was never cruel to Mari.

Or Ami. She did get to safety while Hazou sacrificed himself and got the piss-and-shit treatment.

CaramilkThief said:
Also, I agree that we get a lot of criticism from Kei that, honestly, we do not deserve. From what Velorien says it seems plausible that Hazopilot himself realizes that lashing out to Kei criticism will just result in a bigger dose of Kei drama, whihc is why he chooses to take it on his chin and walk away. I think if we want it to stop, we should go full CCnJ on a plan and tell Kei that a lot of her scathing criticisms are unwarranted and sometimes even cruel. It causes Hazopilot (and the Hivemind) emotional pain, and could you please stop doing it or tone it down, please?

acidshill said:
Personally, I'm fine with simply getting used to Kei's brand of criticism and mostly ignoring it. Although if Hazō himself were to take that route perhaps Kei deserves to know...

While I think both options are fine, sometimes conflict is necessary for relationships to progress and people to change. Kei/Kei's SCs are not particularly communicative, so we have to compensate. Ignoring Kei outbursts is not healthy for our relationship, but we can communicate calmly about what to do with the Keis.

Veedrac said:
My point was to emphasize that if you feeling exhausted about the quest is representative of how other voters feel, then the voters should remember they have power over how much these events come up.

I am personally not anywhere close to feeling learned helplessness or anything, I believe in our ability to come up with plans that solve our issues.

ProperAttorney said:
blame Asuma for making it Hazo's problem that these things happened, when it's the Hokage's job to secure Leaf.

Shrooms said:
Mari doesn't have EM nuke

RandomOTP said:
She may have learned it offscreen, but no.

Ah-ha! Let's then Declare-

RandomOTP said:
To my knowledge, Mari has Water Element, Lightning Element, and Wind Element.

Oh. That might be too much for a declaration. Learning an element AND a jutsu retroactively?

Well, to be honest we could also make other nukes. People have been advocating learning Harumitsu's seal of cooling for that purpose.

Cariyaga · Jul 18, 2023

Shrooms said:
[X] Action Plan: So, You Have Come This Far, and Still, You Understand Nothing
Word Count: 320

Optimize with Mari/Kei

Clan Announcement: Denounce Hidan's penchant for ritual mass slaughter as recommended

Hazou has literally dedicated his career to preserving lives, even civilians, which he's frequently laughed at for doing. He's frankly astonished anyone believed he'd support ritual execution of people he's invested so much in protecting.

People say crazy things about Hazou daily. Look at his actions, not words from literal zealot mass-murderers.

Have Mari organize Goketsu ninja and handle suspicious characters to avoid another Scarf Man incident.

Bring upset Goketsu to Bakuchioka. Invite same-age Clan Heads/peers from specjonin celebration.

With permissions, explain exactly what happened.

Hidan broke in to Leaf and kidnapped Hazou, then forced him to play psychotic murder games.

When faced with an S-Ranker, your choice is generally, "Go along with what they want," or "Die." Hidan is no exception. Except he won't just kill Hazou. He'd kill everyone and everything Hazou cares about just to prove a point, just because he can.

Hazou helped Bakuchioka recover as well as he could, but those people are still dead, along with another village the Goketsu had assisted that Hidan just visited. How's it possible to believe Hazou could endorse that? He's genuinely baffled. You can't both think he's a pussy for caring about every life and think he's a murder cultist. That's frankly stupid.

He's dedicated himself to sealmastery at the expense of his combat/social abilities, to Mari's dismay. Why? Punching empowers himself, but better seals empower his Clan and Leaf ninja. He must be careful what he shares lest it get turned against Leaf. Shikaku taught him that. He's determined to become so skilled, no sealmaster can imitate him and he can share freely.

Until he makes something to deal with S-Rankers, Hazou's stuck doing whatever they say. That doesn't mean you should believe crazy shit they say.

I would suggest phrasing the denouncement in such a way that it reflects the "life-side jashinism" (which, really, is just uplift tbh) that Hazou is purportedly supposed to be espousing, so that when it gets back to Hidan we can explain that to him.

RandomOTP · Jul 18, 2023

RandomOTP said:
Eh, Asuma's not in a favorable position. He's the best option Leaf has, but that doesn't mean he's a good option. He can't diplomacy the way that Hiruzen did, and he can't threaten the way that Jiraiya did.

Edit: So Asuma's stuck doing the best that he can, holding the fort until Naruto is ready. Besides, Asuma's had some pretty golden moments, too. His contest, the clanless chunnin exam, approving of MARI, signing the Consort Bill into law, etc.

I also think it merits pointing out that Asuma thought Hiashi would be a better Hokage than he would, back when Jiraiya had first died. Asuma sought to preserve peace within Leaf, and wanted Leaf to stand united, rather than fall apart to infighting.

I will admit some amount of frustration with Asuma's inability to reign in Orochimaru... but, like, are we to blame Asuma for not being S-rank?

Given Asuma's situation, I genuinely do think that Asuma's doing the best that he possibly can... he's giving it his all. And, for what it's worth, Asuma's Leaf's survived everything that's hit it. Imagine if someone more corrupt took up the Hat? Someone less honorable, someone less open-minded and good-natured.

Remember, Asuma wants to be a Hokage like his dad. He wants to be a peacemaker and a diplomat... he just can't. He's not persuasive enough, he's not powerful enough, and the Leaf that he's leading has been crippled several times over.

Asuma's not the best option, but he's the best option we have available to us.

Noumero · Jul 18, 2023

RandomOTP said:
I will admit some amount of frustration with Asuma's inability to reign in Orochimaru... but, like, are we to blame Asuma for not being S-rank?

I blame him for being bad at decision theory. Or, well, I wouldn't expect anyone but the Thinker Clans to be good at decision theory, but in that instance he could've approximated that by strongly holding onto the ideals of Leaf — which is what makes "ideals" useful at all. If he'd been the kind of person who'd refuse to let Oro engage in cannibalism out of absolute principle, even if everything burned as the result, Oro wouldn't have even tried to do what he did, because he would've known that nothing good would result.

Instead? Asuma bent to the whims of the circumstances.

Which means he cannot be trusted with anything. Secrets we share in utmost confidence, invaluable deals that make us vulnerable but massively improve Leaf's power, other kinds of good-faith agreements (like respecting Mari's retirement) — he's going to betray any and all of this the moment another S-ranker rolls by and convinces him that appeasing the essie would be more advantageous to Asuma than honoring his word.

I don't know about you, but... I kind of want to like the guy, but this is always in the back of my mind when we interact with him.

Cariyaga · Jul 18, 2023

Noumero said:
I blame him for being bad at decision theory. Or, well, I wouldn't expect anyone but the Thinker Clans to be good at decision theory, but in that instance he could've approximated that by strongly holding onto the ideals of Leaf — which is what makes "ideals" useful at all. If he'd been the kind of person who'd refuse to let Oro engage in cannibalism out of absolute principle, even if everything burned as the result, Oro wouldn't have even tried to do what he did, because he would've known that nothing good would result.

Instead? Asuma bent to the whims of the circumstances.

Which means he cannot be trusted with anything. Secrets we share in utmost confidence, invaluable deals that make us vulnerable but massively improve Leaf's power, other kinds of good-faith agreements (like respecting Mari's retirement) — he's going to betray any and all of this the moment another S-ranker rolls by and convinces him that appeasing the essie would be more advantageous to Asuma than honoring his word.

I don't know about you, but... I kind of want to like the guy, but this is always in the back of my mind when we interact with him.

Good idea, or BEST idea, to teach Orochimaru about the Theory of Games?

faflec · Jul 18, 2023

RandomOTP said:
are we to blame Asuma for not being S-rank

We should FOOM Asuma. Nothing bad could possibly come from this course of action.

Sir Stompy · Jul 18, 2023

Noumero said:
I blame him for being bad at decision theory. Or, well, I wouldn't expect anyone but the Thinker Clans to be good at decision theory, but in that instance he could've approximated that by strongly holding onto the ideals of Leaf — which is what makes "ideals" useful at all. If he'd been the kind of person who'd refuse to let Oro engage in cannibalism out of absolute principle, even if everything burned as the result, Oro wouldn't have even tried to do what he did, because he would've known that nothing good would result

To be fair to Asuma, I don't think Oro's BATNA is "we all die in a fire together" he probably couldn't be killed by all the force Leaf had left at that point.

So provoking this fight would likely be the end of Leaf as an organized state, as either Oro would leave after killing the leadership (and abducting enough ninja for himself) and then they lose the Rockwar, or Oro sets himself up as Hokage after killing Asuma, Naruto, and Tsunade.

I consider the first scenario more likely.

However Asuma did get some gains from trade, Oro fought to defend Leaf multiple times in the Rockwar, Oro limits himself (we hope) to taking the FGP participants and captured ninja. So it's not like he got nothing, it's just that he didn't have the power to stop the vivisections, and given that Oro went missing in the first place over the vivisections, it's likely that Oro would rather die in a fire than stop them.

Hence my assessment of why redeeming him will ultimately fail, but that's neither here nor there.

I'm just saying Asuma isn't pulling a Conjura here, it's not necessarily great decision theory, but when you're negotiating with a stronger power, you don't expect to be happier with the end result than they are.

Rafin · Jul 18, 2023

Noumero said:
I blame him for being bad at decision theory. Or, well, I wouldn't expect anyone but the Thinker Clans to be good at decision theory, but in that instance he could've approximated that by strongly holding onto the ideals of Leaf — which is what makes "ideals" useful at all. If he'd been the kind of person who'd refuse to let Oro engage in cannibalism out of absolute principle, even if everything burned as the result, Oro wouldn't have even tried to do what he did, because he would've known that nothing good would result.

Instead? Asuma bent to the whims of the circumstances.

Which means he cannot be trusted with anything. Secrets we share in utmost confidence, invaluable deals that make us vulnerable but massively improve Leaf's power, other kinds of good-faith agreements (like respecting Mari's retirement) — he's going to betray any and all of this the moment another S-ranker rolls by and convinces him that appeasing the essie would be more advantageous to Asuma than honoring his word.

I don't know about you, but... I kind of want to like the guy, but this is always in the back of my mind when we interact with him.

I think you are underestimating Orochimaru's ability to just go to a minor nation and farm humans. Orochimaru loses tangible opportunities by living in Leaf and ostensibly following some of its laws. Taking his toys and leaving is not just a threat, it might genuinely seem like the better option to him without some kind of steady supply of test subjects. It's how he achieved a lot of his scientific breakthroughs to date.

Velorien · Jul 18, 2023

Nebulus said:
Or Ami. She did get to safety while Hazou sacrificed himself and got the piss-and-shit treatment.

Specifically, they took turns covering for each other (Ami for why Hazō gave her the octocat, Hazō for why Ami brought it to the party), then Orochimaru told Ami to spend the night at one of the outbuildings, then he menaced Hazō for a while until Hazō offered him clan adoption.

RandomOTP · Jul 18, 2023

[x] Interlude: A Day in the Life of Ami

Noumero · Jul 18, 2023

[x] Interlude: Ami Buys Groceries

Sir Stompy said:
To be fair to Asuma, I don't think Oro's BATNA is "we all die in a fire together" he probably couldn't be killed by all the force Leaf had left at that point.

So provoking this fight would likely be the end of Leaf as an organized state, as either Oro would leave after killing the leadership (and abducting enough ninja for himself) and then they lose the Rockwar, or Oro sets himself up as Hokage after killing Asuma, Naruto, and Tsunade.

Rafin said:
I think you are underestimating Orochimaru's ability to just go to a minor nation and farm humans. Orochimaru loses tangible opportunities by living in Leaf and ostensibly following some of its laws. Taking his toys and leaving is not just a threat, it might genuinely seem like the better option to him without some kind of steady supply of test subjects. It's how he achieved a lot of his scientific breakthroughs to date.

My view is that it's more advantageous for Oro to live in Leaf and benefit from the FGP + harvested enemy ninja delivered straight to his Basement, than to live on his own. If Leaf tried to just take those advantages from him, then yes, it'd be better for him to go. But Oro was bidding for more than that: he'd essentially wanted a carte blanche on kidnapping and vivisecting anyone, up to and including Clan Heads.

A Leaf that resulted from establishing that would've plausibly become not a place worth living in (in the sense that the clans would be better off dissolving it and e. g. joining minor villages or defecting to majors or something). Drawing a line there and going "either you remain happy with what you have, or Leaf burns one way or another and you lose all of these advantages" seems like the correct move here, whereas caving in is the losing one.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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