- Location
- Yes.
It's in his sig.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
From @eaglejarl's explanatory posts it seemed to me that Hazou's lack of influence didn't become clear until he sat down to actually write out our plan. Maybe that's a lesson for how to place scene breaks in the future, but he didn't have us vote knowing the vote wouldn't matter.
Look in his sig
Fake E:
'dThere's a link in my sig.
Here, for mobile users.
Maybe "plan" is the wrong word...
But, just to go over things we want to tell her beforehand to make sure we're not either forgetting something important, or thinking of saying something stupid.
How about shipments of ice at prices that undercut competitors?
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Yep, and we tried to (see Hazou's whispers) Unfortunately, in the middle of combat, Hazou couldn't convince them all to follow his plan. But yeah, not really relevant right now, I just think the QMS have been fairly consistent in the agency players have: we control Hazou. The more power and influence Hazou has, the more power and influence we have (e.g. Keiko no longer trains according to our plans, but Akane does). Shrug.
Thanks (sigs don't show up on my phone unless I turn it sideways).
- Location
- Europe
Yes, I know this. It is nice to know why it happened but it doesn't really make me any more happy that it happened in the first place.
Unless I missed it (always a possibility), besides me nobody has voiced a complaint about it yet. If nobody says anything, how are the QMs going to know that we care about it at all?
EDIT: ...or maybe I really am the only one who is bothered by this? That's also useful information to know.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I would avoid doing this, since Hot Springs ninja will probably learn of our offer to do it for Honami and thus cheap ice showing up gives them info on our movements.
If we DO make this offer, I would strongly urge for it to be conditional on us figuring out how to best use EM to manufacture the ice rather than taking it from Frost or northern Iron - the fewer border crossings the better.
Also, ideally we'd be more specific about which parts of the tech tree we show, both for Kagome's sanity and to avoid GM hassle. I can try and write a proposal for specifics tomorrow?
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Well, there are definitely some crossovers between healing humans and Pangolins. I'd imagine having a medical Pangolin around would help Noburi know some things. At the very least, they should be able to help him raise his "medical knowledge" since that includes things like "what herbs are poisonous." And then medical ninjutsu is magic, so met. It's probably better than the nothing we've got right now as far as adult supervision goes for healing (definitely not as good as an actual medic, but we're only getting that if we have Jiraiya or join a cult)
Thanks, and boy is that a lot of seals. I can't imagine the QMs looking through and deciding which are legit in one update. Maybe also provide a short list like @OliWhale suggested? So the story doesn't become a long list of "Kagome thinks this seal is easy, this seal bad" (I wouldn't mind, but I feel I'm in the minority here)
That seems fair, except that I feel like the organic time to have this conversation is right now, after Keiko blurted this out. It almost seems like we're saying we should collectively leave, then return and have a chat. If she leaves of her own will, this would work, but if not, it seems weird. I feel like it doesn't really make too much of a difference though (I don't have strong feelings about it)
This works if Honami doesn't tell anyone about us, but I'm rather confident she will. We might be able to offer some chakra beast parts for sale? Maybe if we're in a town that likes us (and will cover for us) we could come up with a convincing reason.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
How. DARE. You.
I think you have a reasonable point that we shouldn't have been asked for a vote when Hazou wasn't really being asked to make a decision. The QMs should have narrated the update up to starting combat, and then we could have decided Hazou's strategy with no time to consult with everyone else.
Which is maybe the key point. I think in the future, votes should be far more focused on what Hazou does. I mean, look at what's happening right now. People are voting on where to go next like Hazou should be the one to decide.
Here is how I think it would be better to frame that kind of vote. Have all the NPC state their opinion (or refuse to state if they don't have one) and then Hazou can agree with one of them or come up with his own plan and try to convince the others to follow it, That's how I would like to see these "what does the group decide to do next" decisions handled.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
My bad. I'll clean the mosquito guts off my glasses now. Also I have no idea what you're talking about, clearly I spelled your name right. The edit was.... um... punctuation?How. DARE. You.
Hazou doesn't know
(but actually... we don't know in character)That's reasonable.
Theoretically, anything is possible in sealing. The thing we want Kagome's expert opinion on is which of them Hazou is currently good enough to invent with acceptable levels of risk.
(I think we can probably rule out anything involving black holes, time travel, or artificial demons. Maybe a shortlist is a good idea...)
My proposed timeline is:
Now - Hug Kei and tell her not to worry.
The next day or two - Give Kei space (but not too much distance, and giving support and kindness when it seems like it would help) to get her head together, while preparing for the conversation with the others.
After the preperation - Have the meeting with Kei.
That works too.
- Location
- Over there
Just to voice an alternate perspective, I was happy that Mari overruled us. The way I see it, our plans do 2 things.
- The winning plan represents what is going through Hazou's head at the moment. If something he didn't account for happens, then that plan should not survive contact with reality.
- The broader discussion makes Eaglejarl's life slightly easier by offloading the modeling of the other characters' choices. We've never had binding control over them, but when we make good suggestions that fit their established character they tend to show up in the update.
(I'm not trying to change your opinion on anything, just noting that I had a different reaction.)
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
That seems fine. Not how I'd personally handle such a discussion, but I'm not Hazou
Yep. It might also be helpful to subdivide the sealing list into categories, so we are basically like "which of [insert ranged combat seals] seems easiest and safest for us to research?" Rather than just *list vomit*
- Location
- Laniakea
[X] Research Akane: Hot Air Balloon Blueprints/Assembly
[X] Research Hazou: Elemental Mastery Seal
[X] Research Hazou: Elemental Mastery Seal
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
- Location
- Europe
Good thing you posted that, because I was genuinely surprised that anyone holds that opinion. I guess it goes to show how subjective these things really are.
As mentioned, I like the idea of picking the country where to go next and worrying about the long term plan in the next update. I doubt we are going to fit all this new drama into one update anyway.
So I made a plan that concentrates on us changing locales fast and the immediate fallout of the mission. I was aiming to keep things short and sweet, focusing more on the debriefing and Keiko than every team member in their turn.
On further thought I'm not 100% sold on the islands idea. Looking at the things we rolled to get to Hot Springs, we could try and put more distance between us and the incident even with the injuries we have. Staying in the islands even for a few days might help the ninja nations to close the net on us (this will take some time, cross nations communications between ninjas is probably laced with mistrust, paranoia and excessive bureaucracy), assuming we managed to start off a massive manhunt. Anyone have thoughts on this or where to go in general?
If we go to Iron, I would alter this plan to include a short scouting part where we dig out rumors of what happened with the liberator and get a sense of how dangerous Iron is for missing-nin at the moment.
Wow, we have so much time for this vote still. (30 hours?) I might as well start with a proto-plan, feedback appreciated, copy-pasted versions with a different destination encouraged.
[X] Proto-Plan: Pit Stop at the Islands
Lose our tracks in the islands southeast of Hot Springs and make sure the team is mentally and physically okay. Scope of the plan is short, few days max, after which we decide what we are going to do for the whole recuperation period.
Use the winning Debrief Plan for how Hazou deals with the team socially.
Goals
- Lose any trackers
- Debrief the team
- Prepare for and plan our next move
- Head to the islands and find a temporary hideout
- Emphasize water walking and don't make landfall before finding a suitable hideout location
- Do not use MEW for fortifications
- Use the winning Debrief Plan for how Hazou deals with the team socially
- Miscellaneous
- Have Keiko check whether J got back on us through the pangolins
- Have Kagome try decrypt the cipher piece we acquired
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
To an extent we already do this with the Lore Update votes. I've not pushed for finer granularity delays because I figured the regular schedule makes updating much easier for both you and @eaglejarl. Is this not the case? Would you be okay with delaying a vote by a few hours or a day, or till after some response to an important question is written and we have time to think it over?
To everyone trying to do nice careful failure analyses and postmortems, including those i missed above, thank you. The effort is appreciated.
I won't feel comfortable voting for this plan until it adds some scouting to make sure that Iron has actually cooled down. If I were a local insurgency fighting an overwhelming force I'd be focusing on guerilla war tactics that attempt to muddle the invading army.
In the MFD world a guerrilla force can't quite use civilians as meatshields in the same way as the real world, but there are likely methods of ambush fighting that samurai can use to prolong their defeat.
The incentives are slightly different if this was some weird country scale experiment by
Ideally, we'd plug into the gossip in some border town just outside of Iron proper before we walk into a an active warzone. We also don't know whether the situation with Rice country and Hidden Sound is the same as in canon. Though the existence of such a village would likely be known to most, since canon!Orochimort was using diplomatic access to infiltrate other villages and you can't really have diplomacy if the other party doesn't know you exist.
@eaglejarl, @Velorien: Forgive me if this has been answered already, but do we know whether Hidden Sound exists? If so what do we know about it? If not, what do we know about the ninja of Rice Country beyond the "The Rice ninja force is rumoured to have taken a turn towards being surprisingly competent for a minor village this last decade or so." we see in the player document? How good are they at border patrol relative to leaf or other countries we've popped into? (Q already added to knowledge doc, though the backlog there is getting pretty big)
Oh, and you should add the "Have Kagome look at the bit of the cipher we have" bit from @MadScientist's plan.
Also, seriously, every major plan right now has a "talk it out" section which tends not to depend on the rest of the plan at all, and vice versa. I beg you, split it off and let people vote on broad actions and talking separately. For instance I don't think the talky portion of your plan is active enough about providing support to Akane and Inoue, and think mine is better, but barring my main objection I like the core of your plan.
Same to you, please decouple the actiony parts of the plan and the talky parts of the plan. There's little good reason to vote on them as a single blob for this update. Your plan especially is a good default option for the non-talky portion, relatively conservative and the like, but it doesn't do much to help the team's emotional state either.
Otherwise I like your plan, barring the earlier inconsistency between "isolated island" and "pumping merchants for gossip". I'd also like to work with Kagome to help break the cipher, just to see what it involves and how it works. As opposed to him going off to the Kagome corner and doing it himself.
Please decouple the talky and non-talky bits. You don't even really have a talky bit to your plan, which I think we need.
In fact, here's a few other debrief plans to choose from if people feel that's the best option.
[] Debrief Plan : Cool Down First
The base option for those who think waiting is best.
- Everyone is still haggard, let things cool down for a while before trying to talk things out.
- Try to get back to the standard routine of training, research, and survival actions if the time and situation allow.
I'm trying to pull out the talky bits from Muer'ci's plan, without losing any extra detail in my own here.
- As in "Hugs For Everyone" but drop the portions talking to Keiko, Noburi, Kagome or about Sealing.
- Instead, for Keiko just mention that we're here if she wants to talk and thank her for saving Mari.
- If we get to talk about her worth to the team, point out how she just saved Mari (and everyone) not through pangolins, but her own power and Mori savvy. She, Keiko did that.
- Summons are pretty rad tho.
- Spend time with teammates hanging out, provide opportunities to act as support but don't bring up the mission unless the other person does first.
I agree that the tone is all wrong, but I think the sentiment should be expressed somehow. Keiko did something very important that the rest of us weren't able to do. I'm just not sure how Hazou would put it. This is why I'm not @OliWhail of the million omake.
Speaking as someone with a clinical mindset and a history of depression, one of the best things to have in my mental arsenal is a fact that I can point to when I'm in a low self worth mindset. Something that directly and obviously contradicts the exaggerated self criticism. This effect is only multiplied when others notice those same counterexamples. In particular I want to provide a counterexample to "I only have worth for my summons".
It's specifically meant to address how Akane feels, and the problem with bringing up the lockpicking is that there's a good change it'll make her think "Aargh, the one thing I did well is the the thing that got us into this mess. Even when I do well I fuck up."
I'd rather focus on her skills and the role of luck. She is an incredibly driven little girl and we can use that drive to help her focus and self improve. In the unlikely event that she does start beating herself up over things, I want to give her an outlet of "Yeah, we were unlucky but with enough effort and creativity I can become so good even luck will think twice before fucking with us" without being too overt about it.
Mind, Akane is perceptive and will probably know exactly what we intend. But, she is also kind enough to see it as act of caring that we are trying to stoke her Will of Fire when it might be sputtering a bit.
Point, Added. I still think there's a chance he's angry and would appreciate ways to handle that.
I'm not going to until the QMs tell me it's not going to work. At that point I'll move onto other things we could be doing. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, but it's not dead quite yet.
Yeah, I figured he might be angry at the turn of events. But I think it'll be almost as easy to channel Kagome's anger productively as it is to channel Akane's frustration productively. There's not many targets for any anger or frustration he feels, and he's scared of losing the first family he's had in years. Him getting angry with us will come with the constant fear that his anger will lead to him losing us. I want to make sure he knows he deserves to be angry or frustrated (if he is), his anger won't make us abandon him, and that there's a good way to channel that anger. The subtle (if we even need to be) way to do this is to get angry or frustrated along with him, channel our reciprocal frustration or emotion into something productive, and watch as he latches onto the "safe" way let out his emotion we've just shown him.
I want there to be a list of concrete things he can focus his anger onto, like the sealing tech tree. He will probably tear that and modular sealing to shreds, but we'll be better for it, with ideas that are both helpful and feasible. The extra information for the sealcrafting inclined players would also be a bonus.
Edited post included below,
This is like 90% of the reason it's a Debrief Plan rather than an Action Plan. They'd all just slot neatly into any plan that gets us someplace safe and has time for talking things out.
*grumbles*
If only action plan authors would add a line says "Highest voted Debrief Plan goes here."
Or we just use one of the current debrief plans as the next action plan, that works too.
I'm on @Twofold's side here mostly. I agree with your decision, but would have appreciated either a heads up that Mari would take control or just no vote at all.
This is a good list, it's very Hazou.
Now, that's not fair. The split in disciplines, at least for basic injuries and surgeries, is as much because of the economics of it. Doctors can specialize in working to treat one target audience that is very valuable and very high risk, they can spend a lot of time optimizing for a single case because getting it right is incredibly important and it's common enough to allow them to make a living off of specialization. Vets cannot usually (see horses for a counterexample) specialize on a single species because there's not as much business to support it, not to mention it doesn't matter as much if a pet dies (relative to a human), so their best bet is to be able to cover a large number of species pretty well rather than one species exceptionally.
A vet will be able to set a bone or stitch a wound on a human just fine. A vet with a doctor supervising will probably do pretty well for even complex things. If medical justu aren't specialized for the species, then a pangolin medic should be able to handle basic operations fine with supervision from a human.
Mind this only applies for things where the pangolins and humans are similar, like bone and muscle healing. Psychiatrists, dermatologists, and the like are right out.
We can't activate seal through chakra wire, and we don't have a way to detect mechanical movement. Our current workaround is to test seals with a timed delay that allows us to get away.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
*grumbles about decoupling, lets his inner Haskell programmer show*
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
They were talking about Kagome's tripwire seal.
- Location
- Europe
Since we are in the southern Hot Springs now, it might be prudent to repeat our previous dodge-the-borders-by-sea maneuver.
We could cross the Haran Bay somewhere north-ish to Frost, run through Frost, and then do the sea crossing bit to Iron, possibly touching land at Hot Springs or Rice (Eep!) on the way.
That would definitely make it more complicated to track us.
I have feeling that the Allied Ninja Force of Samurai Hating scoured the land for all possible hideouts and bases. Going back to our old haunts might not be a good idea.
I think it's better we stick to the wilderness at first and perform careful scouting on what has happened in Iron and how people are feeling about it.
I like this approach. I have a feeling that @Velorien is not going to be able to have us go through all the teammates in one update, and social aspects are kinda iffy if they are done off screen. We should focus on a general debrief to scope out what the mood of the team is like and then show support for Keiko.
Also, I didn't even realize at first that you were going for some sort of a separate "Debrief Plan". Not a bad idea in this case.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Yeah, as a general MO separate votes for each option with the update aggregating each option's winner is a bad idea because the choices are deeply interconnected.
In this one case getting to safety and talking things out are both important, urgent, and almost completely decoupled. The conversation doesn't depend on where we have it (as long as it's safe enough to have it) and how we get somewhere safe doesn't depend on what we talk about.
It's great for this one situation, but not many others.
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