Long-distance running (on land or sea) is out, but it's not a problem to carry him.

I assume that he can henge the injuries away and run himself?

I mean, maybe the norm has changed since I left, but 10 pages and 4 action plans within 24 hours seems like a lot to me. I also haven't seen discussion on things like "will Jiraiya care" "who or what will likely come after us" "where do we already have contacts or assets and can we use them"

Yeah, but the differences between the plans are pretty small. The next step is to get out of Hot Springs. J is not an immediate worry and we don't really have assets anywhere.

The Lore update seems tempting but honestly the team talk + recuperation + research phase is probably going to take multiple updates anyway. Using Lore Updates to lengthen that time even more sounds unappealing to me.

I like the idea of picking a country and dealing with team drama in the next update. The plans for the recuperation time can go to the update after that.
 
Yes, exactly. (Although note that this map is the one we've been using as MfD canon. I think they're equivalent, but I've noticed small differences between various Naruto maps.)
Sounds like we're much closer to the islands, which is useful info for understanding our choices. We can either choose to minimize travel time + get some water behind us to throw off the trail, or do the probably less expected thing and run north to Iron (maybe waterwalk to throw off the scent).
 
Sounds like we're much closer to the islands, which is useful info for understanding our choices. We can either choose to minimize travel time + get some water to throw off the trail, or do the probably less expected thing and run north to Iron (maybe waterwalk to throw off the scent).
Let's not decide until eaglejarl gifts us info on said islands. I don't want to walk into Mist Country's forward base.
 
Yeah, but the differences between the plans are pretty small. The next step is to get out of Hot Springs. J is not an immediate worry and we don't really have assets anywhere.

The Lore update seems tempting but honestly the team talk + recuperation + research phase is probably going to take multiple updates anyway. Using Lore Updates to lengthen that time even more sounds unappealing to me.

I like the idea of picking a country and dealing with team drama in the next update. The plans for the recuperation time can go to the update after that.
Fair. I probably care about how long it takes between each plot advancing post less than the average player. That said, I think we do have some assets (typing it now, curse my slow thumbs) and which one or ones we want to call on will affect which country we want to flee to.
 
We had zero impact on the combat. Mari took charge and our last vote was a non-entity.

I tried to address this issue in the post immediately after the update, but I think I didn't get the job done.


Mari short-circuited your plan, and I regret that. You put together a reasonable strategy and it would have been good if it had gone off; the whole point of a quest is for y'all to have agency over the story, and Mari's choices took that agency away. Unfortunately, when I sat down to plan things out I realized that there was a problem: given the character that we have defined for Mari, she wasn't going to let that plan happen. She's all about letting him be in charge, as long as there is time for her to hear Hazou's plan, evaluate it, and decide that the potential failure modes are acceptable. In a life-or-death conflict with no time to talk, she wasn't going to do that. Furthermore, your plan wasn't the kind of plan that Mari would choose on her own, so I could not have it coincidentally be what she chose to do. She's a non-physical fighter -- she socials, she uses genjutsu, she seduces and cons people. She's reasonably good at punching, but it's her last-choice conflict resolution strategy. I think this has been pretty thoroughly established over the last 8 months. (!)

As soon as I realized this, I had two choices: (A) I could respect player agency and have Mari act antithetically to her established character or, (B), I could sacrifice player agency in the interest of character continuity. I spent some time considering that, and finally I decided that this is supposed to be a rational world so tropes don't apply and characters have to behave consistently.

Despite her taking over and doing something different than your plan, I incorporated as many elements of the plan and the thread's discussion as possible. The characters were positioned where the diagram (someone?) drew showed them. Mari used a genjutsu. Keiko stayed in the corner and threw things. Akane tanked and shouted about Youth in order to cause SAN damage. Hazou used a MEW to squash Joutarou into the ceiling. [The plan actually said "hit him in the knees" but at that point Hazou was actively looking to bring the house down as a means of escape.]



Again, I regret that your plan didn't come off because I don't want y'all to feel like your choices don't count. Unfortunately, it didn't fit the characters of the characters, and Hazou isn't actually the leader. If a similar situation comes up in the future, I will once again choose consistency of characters over strict adherence to the plan. My suggestion for that case would be to make a plan for Hazou's actions alone; had he simply turned and blown the wall down with an explosive tag, or thrown a MEW at the door, or etc, then he could have forced Mari's hand. Your plan made sense as a way to use team skills but that only works if you're actually the one with the authority to give orders.

I have a feeling that there are some ruffled feathers in the player base (not just yours, @Twofold), and I hope that this post has helped to smooth them down.
 
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What are you looking for in particular? I'll probably need to talk about it with @Velorien and he's asleep right now, but if I knowing what to discuss we'll get it done sooner.
Who controls them, officially and unofficially? Are there any ports/towns there? What about wildlife? Does Mari know about any ninja bases there?

Basically, are they a safe place to R&R, and what human presence exists there, if any?
 
Radvic's Analysis of Assets and Liabilities

  • Jiraiya
    • Hasn't returned our call
      • Possibly because we didn't contact him through his agents?
      • Possibly because he's a busy man and he didn't have a use for us?
      • Possibly because he's upset with us? (We did withhold information)
    • Easily capable of figuring out we caused the Hot Springs problems
      • We literally used the Jutsu he taught us
      • We match the "5 ninja with one genjutsu specialist" description
      • He used us, he'll think other people could use us too
    • Lots of information, contacts, resources
      • Medic ninja
      • Funds
    • Can probably solo kill our team if he cares
    • Seems like a nice guy
      • May or may not be on board with "making the world a better place"
      • Probably against "killing four people for pocket change"
  • Iron
    • Lots of hunter ninja were here recently, may or may not still be around
    • Yakuza doesn't like us (if they can ID us)
    • There's a small village that likes us
    • Kagome probs has an old hideout
    • Might be old Liberator ninja around
  • Tea
    • We know one of Jiraiya's contacts here
    • Has small ninja presence
    • Location of missing-nin hiring (might have benefitted from this fiasco?)
    • One of the first places Jiraiya would look for us
    • We got safely from there to here... but we'd have to run through Fire again.
  • Shady Employer
    • Might be able to get 45,000 Ryo (that's a lot of sealing paper)
    • Likely at least marginally happy with us (we were marginally successful, but may have been... louder and more violent than they hoped)
    • Might turn us in to international authorities for disrupting a DMZ
    • Might be able to get future missions (fun times)
    • Might learn more about what we just did
  • Hot Springs
    • All the investigations will be happening here (to start)
    • The spa probably hates our guts (girl-we-conned will almost certainly tell the authorities everything about us)
    • Likely very clear that we had Mari (genjutsu) and Noburi (asking about water). Any competent investigation team should be able to figure out we did this (if they also know about the Mist missing nin)
  • Mist
    • We are familiar with the territory
    • Everyone and their uncle wants to kill us
    • We've likely made a big enough splash to get Zabuza set on us again (because between Jiraiya and Hot Springs, they know we're out there)
  • Fire
    • Lots of firepower
    • Have gone through boarder successfully (both with Shikigami and as ourselves)
    • Jiraiya is somewhere
  • Pangolins
    • Generally positive opinion about us (first summoner in centuries!)
    • Broad range of skills (maybe a medic?)
    • Likely only possible for Keiko to hide there
    • May need to do quests to get best contracts
  • Medical ninja in Iron
    • May or may not accept Noburi back as an apprentice and teach him
    • Likely will tell Jiraiya about us if we go there
  • Village Hidden in the Mountains
    • Agreed to not come back for a year
    • Unlikely to kill us on sight
    • Would likely require politics... shudder

Long and short of this is: we've got a couple things in Iron we could use, Zabuza is likely chasing us, making good with Jiraiya would likely make our lives much easier, if Jiraiya is against us everyone will have a list of our abilities and descriptions (if not, Mist will likely know we're there (because they'll know about Noburi when they find out we asked about water))
 
I guess the biggest problem is just that we feel like we have control over the entire party because most updates we do. And then we get an update where we suddenly don't, and there's some cognitive dissonance created. If I could change one aspect of this quest, it would be giving player control over the entire party, since it's basically just annoying at this point, especially when stuff like this happens and multiple hours of real life for people (not me, but others) goes down the drain.

EDIT: that said, I do appreciate that you're intending to make the other characters have their own agency to behave in character, it's just a bit less fun this way, even if it's a better story.
 
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I have a feeling that there are some ruffled feathers in the player base, and I hope that this post has helped to smooth them down.

I was actually going to address this more after the voting period, but I guess I could do it now.

I can see why you did it and in this case there's a pretty good reason to ignore the plan. But you are right, I am feeling genuinely bummed by it. You shouldn't give us a vote point if it doesn't matter what we vote for. I'm just hoping that these kind of not-votes won't happen in the future.

My suggestion for that case would be to make a plan for Hazou's actions alone; had he simply turned and blown the wall down with an explosive tag, or thrown a MEW at the door, or etc, then he could have forced Mari's hand. Your plan made sense as a way to use team skills but that only works if you're actually the one with the authority to give orders.

You must admit that it was kinda implied that we should come up with a plan for the whole team. Getting feedback like "It's too dark for you to actually hand-sign to you teammates" or "Focus on Hazou's actions in the next 5 seconds" would help for the next time.

But as I said, I totally understand that this was an exception and not the rule. I just wanted to voice my opinion that yes, this impacted my quest experience negatively and that I hope it doesn't happen again.
 
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For what it's worth, I am not going to whine about the decision that the GM made.

Ultimately, we decided to press forward with the mission, and we ended in a clusterfuck that almost got us killed.
 
Updated:

[X] Action Plan: Let's Not Die

Goals:
  1. SURVIVE!
  2. Get to somewhere less immediately dangerous.
  3. Start setting up our spy network. Again.
  4. Make a nice sealing lab and get to work.
  5. Be very nice to Kei.
  6. Find out what the coded information was.
Methods:
  1. Hug our teammates and be really really nice to them (see "Debrief Plan: Hugs for Everyone" for details).
  2. Get out of Hot Springs. Ask Mari, Kagome, and Kei where they think looks safest for us right now.
    1. Emphasize the need for a nearby country that has a low ninja presence, make sure to use anti-tracking terrains to our advantage, and Henge. Always Henge.
    2. Those islands to the east of Hot Springs seem nice. If they have hamlets on them, maybe we could go there.
  3. Find a hamlet and do our "friendly neighbourhood child-assassins" thing that we did in Tea with that other hamlet.
    1. Have Kei as our main public front, with the others mainly resting/researching, and taking it in turns to go with her when they have time (because we shouldn't leave Kei on her own).
  4. When merchants come through town, buy them a round of drinks and pump them for gossip.
    1. Ask them to be on the lookout for more information and promise to give them good trade deals in future if they can deliver.
  5. Build a kick-ass Sealing lab.
    1. Stay here long enough to do sealing training/research as Hazou's training/research plans direct.
    2. Make time for Kagome to pursue his own sealing projects.
    3. Discuss our sealing projects with Kagome. Show him our tech tree, and once he's stopped screaming, try to get his opinion on what projects are safe to pursue at the moment. Get his advice on what would be good force-multipliers.
  6. Give Kei some space to calm down for a little while. Later, hold a team meeting to make it clear to Kei how grateful we are that she saved Mari, and how awesome we all think she is, and how absolutely no one thinks any less of her because of her crush including Mari.
    1. Have a team(-sans Kei) meeting beforehand while we're letting her calm down to plan out how we want this discussion to go.
    2. Offer to spend some time with Kei doing something she enjoys to cheer her up.
  7. Have Kagome break the cipher on our 1/3 of the tattoo.
 
You must admit that it was kinda implied that we should come up with a plan for the whole team. Getting feedback like "It's too dark for you to actually hand-sign to you teammates" or "Focus on Hazou's actions in the next 5 seconds" would help for the next time.
From my perspective, I was confused why the proposed action plans had people aside from Hazou doing things when the update said
NB: A reminder that you cannot control others' actions – any suggestions must be communicated to them, potentially in Jōtarō's full hearing.
Which seemed explicit to me that we could only control Hazou for this, and the other characters would do what they would do (e.g. I was totally unsurprised Akane deactivated her defense Jutsu so she could fight just a little better - it's what she does (voluntarily suffer injury and sadness so she can maybe make other people a little happier))
 
From my perspective, I was confused why the proposed action plans had people aside from Hazou doing things when the update said

Which seemed explicit to me that we could only control Hazou for this, and the other characters would do what they would do (e.g. I was totally unsurprised Akane deactivated her defense Jutsu so she could fight just a little better - it's what she does (voluntarily suffer injury and sadness so she can maybe make other people a little happier))
I think what we tried to do was make a plan and communicate it to our team so they would do said actions; i.e., we control Hazou who tells everyone else to do X, since they would want to listen to Leader Hazou they'd do X.
 
Also, about pangolin medics...

They haven't had a summoner in centuries. What makes anyone think that their medics know anything about healing humans?

I mean, maybe medical ninjutsu is flexible enough to work on all species, or even just all mammals, without issue. But there's a reason that doctors and vets get different training, and it's all too possible that pangolin medical techniques are ill-adapted for human patients.
 
Proposal plan for those of you who want to go to Iron. Bit worried about the purple square since there isn't a decent river to go on (the existing one curves to Konoha which is BAD), but it seems otherwise reasonable.
 
For what it's worth, I am not going to whine about the decision that the GM made.

Ultimately, we decided to press forward with the mission, and we ended in a clusterfuck that almost got us killed.

I don't really care that Mari didn't follow our plan. My issue is that QMs had us vote in the first place and when there was no real way for Hazou to impact the situation. Why are we voting for things and making plans if they don't get followed?

Which seemed explicit to me that we could only control Hazou for this, and the other characters would do what they would do (e.g. I was totally unsurprised Akane deactivated her defense Jutsu so she could fight just a little better - it's what she does (voluntarily suffer injury and sadness so she can maybe make other people a little happier))

The plan that won was an exception since it didn't take the communication aspect into account.

But if we had gone with the other plans that involved Hazou hand signing messages to the other people, the results of the update would've been exactly the same. Only possible votes that would've had impact would've been something like. "Hazou immediately casts MEW" or "Hazou throws an explosive tag" and even those would've probably been stopped by Mari if Hazou didn't stop the actions himself after realizing that this was Mari's show now.

But yeah, this is kinda super not relevant to our planning process. Which is why I was originally planning to talk about it later.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Let's Not Die

Goals:
  1. SURVIVE!
  2. Get to somewhere less immediately dangerous.
  3. Start setting up our spy network. Again.
  4. Make a nice sealing lab and get to work.
  5. Be very nice to Kei.
  6. Find out what the coded information was.
Methods:
  1. Hug our teammates and be really really nice to them.
  2. Get out of Hot Springs. Ask Mari, Kagome, and Kei where they think looks safest for us right now.
    1. Emphasize the need for a nearby country that has a low ninja presence, make sure to use anti-tracking terrains to our advantage, and Henge. Always Henge.
    2. Those islands to the east of Hot Springs seem nice. If they have hamlets on them, maybe we could go there.
  3. Find a hamlet and do our "friendly neighbourhood child-assassins" thing that we did in Tea with that other hamlet.
    1. Have Kei as our main public front, with the others mainly resting/researching, and taking it in turns to go with her when they have time (because we shouldn't leave Kei on her own).
  4. When merchants come through town, buy them a round of drinks and pump them for gossip.
    1. Ask them to be on the lookout for more information and promise to give them good trade deals in future if they can deliver.
  5. Build a kick-ass Sealing lab.
    1. Stay here long enough to do sealing training/research as Hazou's training/research plans direct.
    2. Make time for Kagome to pursue his own sealing projects.
    3. Discuss our sealing projects with Kagome. Show him our tech tree, and once he's stopped screaming, try to get his opinion on what projects are safe to pursue at the moment. Get his advice on what would be good force-multipliers.
  6. Give Kei some space to calm down for a little while. Later, hold a team meeting to make it clear to Kei how grateful we are that she saved Mari, and how awesome we all think she is, and how absolutely no one thinks any less of her because of her crush including Mari.
    1. Have a team(-sans Kei) meeting beforehand while we're letting her calm down to plan out how we want this discussion to go.
    2. Offer to spend some time with Kei doing something she enjoys to cheer her up.
  7. Have Kagome break the cipher on our 1/3 of the tattoo.
This seems like a pretty good plan. Three comments/suggestions:
1. You mention showing Kagome our tech tree. You probably want to include a link to that. Making QMs lives easier makes happier QMs might make less of the entire world try to kill us - also, I have no idea what our tech tree is
2. Planning a discussion is almost impossible and will probably make it obvious to Keiko we're being somewhat fake. I think pretty much everyone is already on board with make Keiko happy, and at least Noburi and Hazou already knew, so I don't think a pre-discussion is necessary
3. A merchant will likely want to know what "good trade deals" are. I don't know what we have to offer yet (aside from ninja services, but we don't really want to advertise our presence right now).
 
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