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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I observe that Jiraiya is a Sannin and high-level Summoner with extensive experience and reputation even within the Seventh Path. I find the idea that he was fooled by the Pangolins...questionable.
 
Velorien said:
"To reframe, your behaviour does not match my model of someone aware that said loved one is merely a permeable dimensional barrier away, little different to my recent sojourn in Hot Springs save that she requires some labour in your part before she can make her return. It is not the behaviour of Gōketsu Hazō, so certain he was about to conquer death that it required two of Leaf's most brilliant women to convince him that some obstacles remained. I had hoped to return to find you annoyed that the need to rescue Akane as well complicates your timetable, not riven with pain that drives you to irrational behaviour and snap decisions with far-reaching consequences."
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Hazō gives no tells.
Velorien said:
Ami sobered a little. "You'll notice that I didn't mention any of my Akatsuki-wrangling hijinks. I may have pushed a little too hard after I heard about Akane, and it might be a good idea for me to avoid a certain overgrown manchild known as Uchiha Itachi until I figure out how to appease him.
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Social consequences hurting her game?

Wrangling these problems would be so miserable without the sealing lootboxes. No outs but to fold to Asuma, to Orochimaru, to Akatsuki.
 
Noumero said:
You can't be trusted to "be honourable" in the sense the Seventh Path understands it. But there's a consistent honour system you can be trusted not to violate: you won't renege on a deal made in good faith by both parties.
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I don't actually believe this and I expect that if this line of argument does succeed in redeeming Hazō's reputation, it will backfire horribly if he ever does break such an agreement.
 
acidshill said:
, it will backfire horribly if he ever does break such an agreement.
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Isn't this sort of the point? The consequences exist to discourage doing it, Hazou acknowledging that he is aware of the consequences and sticking to his guns anyways should make such deals in the future more believable in spite of him breaking off with the Pangolins
 
Zampano said:
I think that this is going to be the pressure point that the Rats go after. Kei's priors were informed by the Human Path, but the Rats may reasonably ask what kind of evidence was used to update those priors. As far as I know, the Goketsu made no effort to verify the Pangolins' claims, even within the framework of what the Pangolins were willing to provide. There was no tour of damaged infrastructure, no visit to hospitals filled with wounded, etc.

The Rats may then insist that ignorance is not a valid escape clause to a contract, particularly willful ignorance. But Jiraya was the Toad Summoner and did not raise any red-flags about the idea of war between equals on the Seventh Path. So it is not merely Human-path priors, but the priors of a Sanin that were spoofed by the Pangolins.

The plan starts from the premise that "the Pangolins deceived Goketsu with lies of omission, and maybe also direct lies." I want it on record that, at the time of the contract's negotiation, "Goketsu" included Jiraya Himself. Hazo might need to argue that object-level question of whether the Goketsu were deceived (instead of willfully blind) separately from the real issue of whether reneging on a deal is permissible after learning of deceit.



(I don't know that this requires a change in the wording of the plan, but if it does, "Our priors" -> "Goketsu leader Jiraya's priors" would be my first attempt at a succinct change. (That phrasing has the risk of appearing to shirk responsibility, which is why I'm not a plan-maker!) Adding a sub-bullet about is probably too big a change considering the # of existing voters and the remaining voting window. So discussing it quietly amongst the hive-mind is the best I can do.)
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faflec said:
I observe that Jiraiya is a Sannin and high-level Summoner with extensive experience and reputation even within the Seventh Path. I find the idea that he was fooled by the Pangolins...questionable.
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Hm.
  • Point 1: It's not really about whether Jiraiya happened to be fooled or not, it's about the approach the Pangolins took. As in, if they could fool Jirayia, would they have done so? Did they try to fool him to whichever extent they could? And inasmuch as the deal was not with Jiraiya, but with "the Gouketsu", did they actively and successfully fool some subset of the Gouketsu, in a way such that if they didn't do so, the deal may well have not happened because these Gouketsu would've exerted internal pressure on Jiraiya? I think the answer to all of those is "yes", so yes they're still guilty of foul play.
  • Point 2: We're not actually pretending that we did nothing unobjectionable by Seventh Path standards. We're just offering a different framework for cooperation within which, we claim, Hazou-the-individual won't renege. "The Gouketsu", as in the legal entity, is an oathbreaker / a mercurial entity whose behavior changes the moment its Clan Head changes? Okay! Sure! Whatever! Don't make deals with "the Gouketsu". Make deals with individual Gouketsu.
acidshill said:
I don't actually believe this
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Me neither.
Noumero said:
(Though, ha, note that this speech itself may be adversarial, or a straight-up lie. I'm not sure we'd actually live up to this standard. The Human Path, after all, is indeed a hellhole: nobody down there except maybe Ami can be relied on to even technically keep their word. And we're its creature.)
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But shhh.
 
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Reposting. What do y'all think?

It creates a beautiful estate that blends various other design elements from other clans, pays homage to Leaf's architectural styles (wooden facades and incorporating nature/gardens), honors Leaf's heroes (lamppost statues), is pretty defensible, and highlights our Clan's gimmick: seals and Summons

RandomOTP said:
[x] (Goketsu Estate): With a Population Like Ours, We Need a Town Unto Ourselves
Words: 298

  • Sanity Check everything (and vet businesses) with Gaku, Mari, and Kei
  • Design:
    • Hire Shikamaru-recommended architect from NFF (flatters Shikamaru ; spotlights program).
    • Blend elements from other compounds (represents our connections within Leaf):
      • Uchiha (Hazou's ancestors, highlights bloodline connection to Leaf).
      • Nara (Kei's marriage to Shikamaru).
      • Senju (Jiraiya's teammate, and Noburi's role model).
      • Sarutobi, (Jiraiya's sensei).
      • Yamanaka (Hazou/Akane's relationship with Ino).
      • Aburame (budding business relationship).
    • Require architect collaborates with...
      • Kagome (maximize trap-setting potential).
      • Noburi (medical checks).
      • Mari (general I&S defenses)
      • Kei (sanity checks/optimization/logistics)
  • Construction:
    • Hire KEI-recommended construction crews from NFF (spotlights program ; increase KEI connection).
      • Monitor for corruption.
    • Using Earthshaping, fix structural faults in (and hyper-condense) all building materials (increases defensiveness).
      • Work with construction crews/engineers to ensure Earthshaped material is safe to use.
    • ES-Condensed Corundum windows (Main Family Building)
    • Glass windows (important buildings).
  • Details
    • Therapy Building (grief counseling)
      • Soothing aesthetics
    • Wooden facades (nod to Leaf's architectural styles)
    • Kagome-approved Underground Evac Buildings (civilians)
    • Goketsu Event Building
      • Huge dragon skeleton carving.
      • Relief carvings of Summon Clans we've contracted.
    • ES-Reinforced walkways (QoL improvement)
    • Hide Koi pond for FOOM OPSEC training.
    • Lampposts (increases visibility at night)
      • Marble statues, holding seals? (Leaf's heroes. Include fallen Goketsu?)
      • Without compromising effectiveness, Replicate light placements within Nara compound (Nara Homage)
    • Gardens with water features, flowers, and fruit trees (Yamanaka homage, supplements Food Bank)
      • Subtly incorporate defenses.
        • Examples...
          • Benches that're comfortable, but also reliable cover
          • Brick Facades over MEWs around garden/park perimeters
    • ES gold filigree into important buildings (use shapes reminiscent of sealwork)
    • ES relief carvings that resemble sealing on surfaces, hiding real seals in the noise.
    • Private monument to clan's fallen in the heart of estate (provides solace).
    • With Mari, Hazou Earthshapes fully anatomically accurate Jiraiya Colossus. Clothe in Arachnid Silk garments.
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Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Jun 10, 2023 at 6:34 PM, finished with 230 posts and 18 votes.
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Voting is closed.
 
eaglejarl said:
Hazō's face was utterly blank but his eyes burned with simmering anger. When he spoke, his words were frozen harder than the ground they stood on.

"From what I saw, the damage to the Nara estate is largely property damage that can be fixed by any competent construction worker. Likewise, you have some dead about whom nothing can be done and only a few wounded, whom someone else can care for as well or better than you. I, on the other hand, have two hundred and fifty-ish people who are going to be showing up on my doorstep sometime in the next hour, desperate for a place to sleep out of the cold. They have nowhere to go; their houses are destroyed, their families and friends are all dead and their houses were destroyed, and they can't afford to pay for an inn. If someone doesn't step up and help them they'll freeze to death before morning. I'm not going to let that happen. If necessary then yes, I'll have them packed cheek-by-jowl into the house, but I'd rather give them their own quarters. As to you, you are either Team Uplift or you're not. If you abandoned us for the Nara, fine. Go. If not, summon your pangolins so that we can make those people some shelter."

The force of his anger almost physically pushed at her and Kei stepped back, away from the intensity of it. Kenta and the unnamed civilians, already jumpy from the way Hazō had been using small implosion bombs as brooms to clear the snow from their path, stepped back quite a bit farther than she had and looked as though they were one angry glance from outright fleeing.
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I really, really continue to think that this might have been a proto-aura.

We shifted Kei physically backwards because we were being passionate about Uplift and civilians and all the rest.
 
Next Ami encounter.
Talk to Ami About Killing Akatsuki.
  • How hard would it be?
    • AMITY meetings expose them to tracking.
      • They travel in small groups.
      • Find out how they communicate?
      • Tracking them is a Leaf security interest. Asuma could help.
        • Canvass.
        • Condors.
        • Byakugan.
    • Skills known from Battle of the Gods. Countermeasures?
      • Sasori, Konan weaknesses? Ask Orochimaru?
      • Sasori still in the human body he revived in?
    • Did the others trust Hidan with their blood?
      • If he can tell when they die from a distance, needs to be taken out first.
    • Need to kill all of them before word gets out.
      • How many can we kill before Sand or Mist can be convinced to help with the rest?
        • Other groups who hate Akatsuki.
    • Do they carry seal load outs?
    • Defectors?
      • Is trust possible?
    • Can their deaths be hidden from AMITY?
      • Insert fake puppets? Launder resurrected comrades?
    • Unknowns?
 
Reposting my estate plan for reference:

MadScientist said:
Okay! Posting my backup idea!

[x] [Estate] Links
???/300 words
  • Kei/Mari/Gaku check all:
  • Design
    • Blend design elements from other clan compounds to represent the links to Leaf we have so far:
      • Uchiha, representing Hazou's ancestors.
      • Nara, representing Kei's marriage to Shikamaru.
      • Senju, representing Jiraiya's teammate (and Noburi's maybe-apprenticeship, but that's still early days).
      • Orochimaru's compound (he might feel slighted if we ref Tsunade but not him).
      • Sarutobi, representing Jiraiya's sensei.
      • Yamanaka, representing Hazou/Akane's relationship with Ino.
      • Aburame, representing our budding business relationship.
    • Architects are also encouraged to invent creative and modern design elements — we're a research clan, after all.
    • Hire Shikamaru-recommended KEI-architects from NFF.
  • Construction
    • Hazou creates quartz for highlights.
    • ES to add gold filigree to important buildings.
    • Mosaics where appropriate.
  • Details
    • Hide Koi pond for FOOM OPSEC training.
    • Bathhouses.
      • Add waterslides.
    • Great Hall suitable for larger (1000+ person) events.
      • Decorate with huge dragon skeleton carving.
      • Relief carvings of the summon clans we're contracted with.
    • Cafeteria.
    • School/library.
    • Clinic/Mental Health Offices
    • Connect up the aqueduct we built, and the sewers in preparation for when they're ready for deployment.
    • Gardens/Greenhouses for Phytosealing Botanical Gardens to come (phytosealing intentions are kept secret — as far as the architects are concerned, it's a normal botanical gardens).
      • Statue of Hashirama with unique plants flourishing from his ninjutsu.
      • Add fruit trees to supplement food supply.
    • ES relief carvings that resemble 2D/3D sealing on surfaces to hide real seals in the noise.
    • Subterranean complex.
      • Civilian evac shelters.
    • Lampposts.
      • Statues holding daybright seals?
    • Monument to the Lost [Temporarily in Another Path].
    • Statues.
      • Jiraiya colossus.
      • Other Gouketsu VIPs (incl Gaku, hehe)
      • Hazou's Uchiha ancestors pre-Kurosawa split (ask Sasuke for help).
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